Szeth-son-son-Vallano

[Shaggai]

Only because he is coming to the realizations that you claim he is too busy to think about.

He's too busy to think reasonably about them. He doesn't have the time to fully consider them. He doesn't have time to stop and think.

[Bloodfalcon]

He's too busy to think reasonably about them. He doesn't have the time to fully consider them. He doesn't have time to stop and think.

 

I'm not sure that's true. He freaks out at Kaladin initially, then flies away, and the next time we hear from him he's no longer shouting and seems to have come to terms with what he is looking at. He gives in to the fact that Kaladin must be a Radiant. I can find the quote for you. Should be in chapter 86 I believe.

[Stormfather-in-Law]

There's a story I heard, don't know if it's true, about a researcher who came up with a theory about the geometry of the internal structure of the pyramids in Egypt, and went to test this theory out. But he was caught inside the pyramid chipping away at some of the walls. The dimensions didn't match his theory. Regardless of whether it's true, I think we can all identify somewhat.

 

 

So I don't think he's too busy. Szeth simply doesn't want to believe. He'll latch on to any evidence he can that states otherwise (like accepting Mr. T's unlikely explanation), or insisting that Kaladin is not a surgebinder in the face of clear contrary evidence. The alternative, to him, is too horrible. So horrible, in fact, that he'd rather die than live with the truth. And that's exactly what he does, when he finally comes to terms with what he sees.

 

 

[Shaggai]

There's a story I heard, don't know if it's true, about a researcher who came up with a theory about the geometry of the internal structure of the pyramids in Egypt, and went to test this theory out. But he was caught inside the pyramid chipping away at some of the walls. The dimensions didn't match his theory. Regardless of whether it's true, I think we can all identify somewhat.

 

 

So I don't think he's too busy. Szeth simply doesn't want to believe. He'll latch on to any evidence he can that states otherwise (like accepting Mr. T's unlikely explanation), or insisting that Kaladin is not a surgebinder in the face of clear contrary evidence. The alternative, to him, is too horrible. So horrible, in fact, that he'd rather die than live with the truth. And that's exactly what he does, when he finally comes to terms with what he sees.

Exactly. Sigmund Freud, for example, stopped believing that the plays generally attributed to Shakespeare were, in fact, written by Shakespeare, when it turned out that Shakespeare being the author threatened his Oedipal theory.

[WitSpren]

So is Szeth going to go down the same path with corrupted Nin?

 

Nin "We have to server "Justice" to all the KRs because that is the only way we can prevent another Desolution!"

 

Szeth "Well the Desolution and the Everstorm have already started!"

 

Nin "Don't argue with me. I am a Herald! Now listen to your nice little Puppy Dog blade and let's go kill some KR's for jaywalking!"

 

Szeth "Sure, two against one, why not."

 

[xianpoxi]

Kaladin's judgment against Szeth was spot on.

 

 

A person who won't make their own decisions is a coward.

 

 

At first look Only an Evil person would commit the murders which Szeth had. A psychopath. one who does not value human life.

 

 

However, Kaladin learns that Szeth does not outwardly excuse or condone his actions. He does care for the horror of what he has done Szeth feels that Horror.

 

In this case, Szeth was simply too cowardly to stand up for that which is right.

 

He was too cowardly to act against the pronouncement that he was Truthless. Was there some Magic bending Szeth's will to obey the holder of his Oathstone? None at all. The evil he did as Truthless was far worse than breaking an oath when he was already "Truthless"

 

 

Its an inherent contradiction really. Only Szeth's honest cowardice could keep him enslaved. He could have let go that shackle anytime he mustered the courage to reject the pronouncement of Truthless against him. He was too afraid to choose for himself.

 

 

 

Also, the Way of Kings shows Szeth's moral decay as he obeys worse and worse masters. His attitude changes from the beginning of it to the End. He turns the self loathing towards his victims. Its not just when he figures "why not kill Adolin on his own time" it starts much earlier.

 

 

 

(grrr.. what is w/ this post writing tool?  I have to edit every post to put some white space in.. it keeps removing it all and smashing everything into one running paragraph >.<!)

Edited May 6, 2014 by xianpoxi

[Shaggai]

Kaladin's judgment against Szeth was spot on.

 

 

A person who won't make their own decisions is a coward.

 

 

At first look Only an Evil person would commit the murders which Szeth had. A psychopath. one who does not value human life.

 

 

However, Kaladin learns that Szeth does not outwardly excuse or condone his actions. He does care for the horror of what he has done Szeth feels that Horror.

 

In this case, Szeth was simply too cowardly to stand up for that which is right.

 

He was too cowardly to act against the pronouncement that he was Truthless. Was there some Magic bending Szeth's will to obey the holder of his Oathstone? None at all. The evil he did as Truthless was far worse than breaking an oath when he was already "Truthless"

 

 

Its an inherent contradiction really. Only Szeth's honest cowardice could keep him enslaved. He could have let go that shackle anytime he mustered the courage to reject the pronouncement of Truthless against him. He was too afraid to choose for himself.

 

 

 

Also, the Way of Kings shows Szeth's moral decay as he obeys worse and worse masters. His attitude changes from the beginning of it to the End. He turns the self loathing towards his victims. Its not just when he figures "why not kill Adolin on his own time" it starts much earlier.

 

 

 

(grrr.. what is w/ this post writing tool?  I have to edit every post to put some white space in.. it keeps removing it all and smashing everything into one running paragraph >.<!)

 

Szeth's behavior is in no way cowardice. He's doing what he believes to be right, even at the expense of his storming soul.

[Bloodfalcon]

 

Szeth's behavior is in no way cowardice. He's doing what he believes to be right, even at the expense of his storming soul.

No, he is doing what he believes to be wrong out of fear that his soul will be cast off into nothingness. In no way is it noble - it's selfish, and he throws away countless lives for that alone. Basically the definition of cowardice.

[Moogle]

Szeth's behavior is in no way cowardice. He's doing what he believes to be right, even at the expense of his storming soul.

 

I think you can argue for a little bit of cowardice on his part. He actively hated what he was doing, but tried to avoid questioning Stone Shamanism, to the point where he was willing and eager to swallow Taravangian's lies about Honorblades rather than attempt a rational examination of the facts and try his hardest to see if he was right all along about the Voidbringers. He was insane at the time, so I'll cut him some slack, but there's definitely a little cowardice in being afraid of facing his responsibility for the murders.

 

That said, I do agree that he was in general not being cowardly and that calling Szeth a coward seems to miss something fundamental about the character. He is, after all, the type to fight a Shardbearer and hope the Shardbearer kills him. Kaladin was barely able to look at a Blade without being terrified.

[Bloodfalcon]

I think you can argue for a little bit of cowardice on his part. He actively hated what he was doing, but tried to avoid questioning Stone Shamanism, to the point where he was willing and eager to swallow Taravangian's lies about Honorblades rather than attempt a rational examination of the facts and try his hardest to see if he was right all along about the Voidbringers. He was insane at the time, so I'll cut him some slack, but there's definitely a little cowardice in being afraid of facing his responsibility for the murders.

 

That said, I do agree that he was in general not being cowardly and that calling Szeth a coward seems to miss something fundamental about the character. He is, after all, the type to fight a Shardbearer and hope the Shardbearer kills him. Kaladin was barely able to look at a Blade without being terrified.

 

I think the piece that is missing is simply that Szeth is HUGELY misled. I think that his actions are cowardly, but he is living in a different world than reality. It's hard to blame him in a lot of ways. He doesn't have all of the facts, so it's hard to gauge his actions. It allows for readers to choose empathy and see the situation from Szeth's understanding, or to choose a more third party perspective and analyze his actions based from the outside. He's quite a character.

To your point about him hoping he gets killed - I don't find murder-suicides to be particularly brave... I'm not sure that's the evidence I would have used.

[Moogle]

To your point about him hoping he gets killed - I don't find murder-suicides to be particularly brave... I'm not sure that's the evidence I would have used.

 

I find death scary. Szeth walking into dangerous situations in order to obey the holder of his oathstone strikes me as brave in that light. Certainly it's despicable what he does, and not terribly inspiring, but I think the word 'brave' applies pretty well.

 

As an interesting aside on Szeth: his moral code really would not be that terrible if he hadn't been lied to (?) by the Stone Shamans and hadn't accepted the punishment as just. Szeth's moral code would work better if everyone above him on the ladder of power shared it. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it seems like if Szeth had a backbone, most of the tragedy could have been averted. Divine Attribute #2 of Nalan is Confident.

[Bloodfalcon]

I find death scary. Szeth walking into dangerous situations in order to obey the holder of his oathstone strikes me as brave in that light. Certainly it's despicable what he does, and not terribly inspiring, but I think the word 'brave' applies pretty well.

 

As an interesting aside on Szeth: his moral code really would not be that terrible if he hadn't been lied to (?) by the Stone Shamans and hadn't accepted the punishment as just. Szeth's moral code would work better if everyone above him on the ladder of power shared it. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it seems like if Szeth had a backbone, most of the tragedy could have been averted. Divine Attribute #2 of Nalan is Confident.

All I know is that people have historically done some pretty stupid stuff when they thought the world was ending, which you could say is Szeth's equivalent to being Truthless. 

Isn't Szeth's big thing that he was lied to by the stone shamans and that he was actually right about something, but his believing them is what causes him to be Truthless? If he had confidence he wouldn't have gone along with that whole thing, yadda yadda.... Man, what a freakin mess he is. Hope this all gets cleared up in the next book. It kind of goes along with one of my theories that the primary divine attribute is something that attracts the spren to a person, and the secondary attribute is what they grow in along the way / improve upon. This could be how Szeth turns up his confidence now that he sees he was right. Hopefully it will lead to a series of positive events for him, but it'll take a lot before I'm rooting for Szeth.

[xianpoxi]

I find death scary. Szeth walking into dangerous situations in order to obey the holder of his oathstone strikes me as brave in that light. Certainly it's despicable what he does, and not terribly inspiring, but I think the word 'brave' applies pretty well.

 

As an interesting aside on Szeth: his moral code really would not be that terrible if he hadn't been lied to (?) by the Stone Shamans and hadn't accepted the punishment as just. Szeth's moral code would work better if everyone above him on the ladder of power shared it. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it seems like if Szeth had a backbone, most of the tragedy could have been averted. Divine Attribute #2 of Nalan is Confident.

People's fears are different. Szeth did not fear death as much as he feared the Title "Truthless"

Fearlessness does not make one courageous. Neither does it tell when someone is cowardly.

Courage is choosing and overcoming fear. Cowardliness is letting the fear choose for you.

I am very curious too read the flashbacks about Szeth. I want to know exactly how he became Truthless and exactly what it means in the Shin Culture & Religion.

From what I've read so far, it seems like a trick question and a test.

IF he has no truth in him, if he was punished for "crying wolf" about a desolation, then he was branded a liar or person incapable of truth, then why or how would anyone who actually was that dispicable, obey the holder of their oathstone?

He was so far away from the Shin people, and no one outisde his own culture or religion would understand the significance of the oathstone. He could have lied anytime and disobeyed. How could breaking his oath be worse than being responsible for every evil thing someone else commanded of him?

Its seems an absolutely absurd tradition. I wonder how the Shin, who seem to abhor violence, could send someone TRAINED and holding an Honorblade out into the world that way.

I can only suppose that Shen insisting the voidbringers were returning was convicted of some Heresy which undermines the entire Shin religion. (it seems like a theocracy, maybe I haven't read enough about them..)

He also would have had to already have been a priveleged warrior amongst the shin, if he already was trained in the honorblades... but among the Shin warriors are the least valued...

It seems full of contradictions to me. Can't wait to read more.

[Shaggai]

People's fears are different. Szeth did not fear death as much as he feared the Title "Truthless"

Fearlessness does not make one courageous. Neither does it tell when someone is cowardly.

Courage is choosing and overcoming fear. Cowardliness is letting the fear choose for you.

I am very curious too read the flashbacks about Szeth. I want to know exactly how he became Truthless and exactly what it means in the Shin Culture & Religion.

From what I've read so far, it seems like a trick question and a test.

IF he has no truth in him, if he was punished for "crying wolf" about a desolation, then he was branded a liar or person incapable of truth, then why or how would anyone who actually was that dispicable, obey the holder of their oathstone?

He was so far away from the Shin people, and no one outisde his own culture or religion would understand the significance of the oathstone. He could have lied anytime and disobeyed. How could breaking his oath be worse than being responsible for every evil thing someone else commanded of him?

Its seems an absolutely absurd tradition. I wonder how the Shin, who seem to abhor violence, could send someone TRAINED and holding an Honorblade out into the world that way.

I can only suppose that Shen insisting the voidbringers were returning was convicted of some Heresy which undermines the entire Shin religion. (it seems like a theocracy, maybe I haven't read enough about them..)

He also would have had to already have been a priveleged warrior amongst the shin, if he already was trained in the honorblades... but among the Shin warriors are the least valued...

It seems full of contradictions to me. Can't wait to read more.

The point of the tradition is that it's a punishment. You're given an incredibly powerful weapon and you have to obey the orders of whoever holds the Oathstone. You're obviously going to have to kill people, thereby damning your soul. It's the ultimate punishment, and shows a darker side of Stone Shamanism.

[xianpoxi]

The point of the tradition is that it's a punishment. You're given an incredibly powerful weapon and you have to obey the orders of whoever holds the Oathstone. You're obviously going to have to kill people, thereby damning your soul. It's the ultimate punishment, and shows a darker side of Stone Shamanism.

I don't really think having the Honorblades is part of being made Truthless. Its too reckless. It makes me think the secret location of the Honorblades would have leaked out before if that were the case.

I think there would have been more Truthless over history.

The merchant who trades the Truthless was not especially secretive in calling him Truthless to the Thaylen merchant.

The reason the punishment of Truthless doesn't make sense is that anyone who truly deserved it would not keep their oath. They would not live that way. Only someone who was honest AND cowardly would be punished and twisted by it.

[Pathfinder]

So I am re-reading WoKs and I came across the story that Hoid tells Kaladin (page 850 or so). The story is called "Derethil and the Wandersail". I will paraphrase the story and then quote the portions pertinent to this discussion. The plot of the story is King Derethil wants to find the origin, so he can stop the voidbringers. His kingdom builds a great boat and he sails off.

 

They nearly shipwreck but find an island of the Uvara. The Uvara always seemed to agree and everyone went about their duty. It is later shown at the smallest of infractions (tripping and spilling drinks is cited in the story) the perpetrator is swiftly and brutally killed. When asked why, they reply "Our emperor will not suffer failure".

 

This goes on till King Derethil goes to the tower where this emperor lives. He comes out carrying a very decayed corpse and shows them that the emperor was dead all along. The Uvara promptly go crazy and begin to riot, burn, and kill. Only one asks to flee the island with the king. When the king asks her why they did that, she replies "Do you not see, Traveling One? If the emperor is dead, and has been all these years, then the murders we committed are  not his responsibility. They are our own."

 

Kaladin and Hoid then discuss the meaning of the story. It is then that Kaladin says ""It means taking responsibility. The Uvara, they were happy to kill and murder, so long as they could blame the emperor. it wasn't until they realized there was nobody to take the responsibility that they showed grief."

 

Now it could be said in response to this that Szeth was certainly NOT happy while he murdered so it is not the same thing. I disagree, I think it IS the same thing. His "suffering" was his means to blame those who hold his stone, and by proxy the shamans who ordered him to obey any who hold it. It was only when the validity of his oath came into question that he started to freak in earnest because like the Uvara, he realized then he would have to take responsibility for those murders he perpetrated. 

[Moogle]

I agree that the story applies to Szeth, Pathfinder. Chapter 75 of TWoK, the chapter where Szeth considers killing Taravangian but instead keeps to his honor, is titled "In The Top Room", which is a reference to how the dead emperor was found. It is clear that Szeth feels crushing guilt once he realizes he was never Truthless and didn't have to follow anyone's orders.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

Sorry for the double post, but I have more. The scene where Nale picks up Szeth, even he denounces Szeth's excuses:

 

"Why save me?" Szeth said. "Is my torment not enough?"

 

"Those words are foolishness," Nin said. "Unbecoming of one who would study beneath me."

 

"I don't want to study," Szeth said, curling up on the stone. "I want to be dead."

 

"is that it? Truly, that is what you wish most? I will give it to you, if it is your honest desire."

 

"No," Szeth whispered. "The Voidbringers have returned. I was right, and my people...they were wrong."

 

So, Szeth doesn't truly want to die, and the torment the excuse as to why it was ok for him to live. 

[Shaggai]

So I am re-reading WoKs and I came across the story that Hoid tells Kaladin (page 850 or so). The story is called "Derethil and the Wandersail". I will paraphrase the story and then quote the portions pertinent to this discussion. The plot of the story is King Derethil wants to find the origin, so he can stop the voidbringers. His kingdom builds a great boat and he sails off.

 

They nearly shipwreck but find an island of the Uvara. The Uvara always seemed to agree and everyone went about their duty. It is later shown at the smallest of infractions (tripping and spilling drinks is cited in the story) the perpetrator is swiftly and brutally killed. When asked why, they reply "Our emperor will not suffer failure".

 

This goes on till King Derethil goes to the tower where this emperor lives. He comes out carrying a very decayed corpse and shows them that the emperor was dead all along. The Uvara promptly go crazy and begin to riot, burn, and kill. Only one asks to flee the island with the king. When the king asks her why they did that, she replies "Do you not see, Traveling One? If the emperor is dead, and has been all these years, then the murders we committed are  not his responsibility. They are our own."

 

Kaladin and Hoid then discuss the meaning of the story. It is then that Kaladin says ""It means taking responsibility. The Uvara, they were happy to kill and murder, so long as they could blame the emperor. it wasn't until they realized there was nobody to take the responsibility that they showed grief."

 

Now it could be said in response to this that Szeth was certainly NOT happy while he murdered so it is not the same thing. I disagree, I think it IS the same thing. His "suffering" was his means to blame those who hold his stone, and by proxy the shamans who ordered him to obey any who hold it. It was only when the validity of his oath came into question that he started to freak in earnest because like the Uvara, he realized then he would have to take responsibility for those murders he perpetrated.

That was just how Kaladin interpreted it. Hoid's comments made it pretty clear that there were a lot of ways to interpret it. Kaladin interpreted it that way, for the same reason he called Szeth a coward. Szeth would interpret it another way, for his own reasons. Jasnah would probably interpret it yet another way.

[Pathfinder]

True that was his interpretation, but it put rather succinctly my point, so I was using it to illustrate my point, not say simply because it is written, it is right lol. 

[Pathfinder]

So I had another thought that I felt warranted a double post, sorry. I have a new theory. We are SUPPOSED to see what Szeth did as at least on some level as dishonorable. It is to illustrate how any honorable action taken to extreme can be dishonorable. This has occured with Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah and Dalinar (and given enough time I think I can find Renarian and Lift). Kal went overboard trying to protect everyone to the point of making himself suicidal. You can't put people in a bubble under the pretense you are "protecting" them, and protecting only the people you like is as shown selfish and thereby dishonorable. Shallan's honesty comes out in her glib manner and sharp wit. Telling the truth is honorable, but telling the truth without context and restraint hurts and alienates people which is dishonorable. Jasnah, wisdom is honorable, but using your wisdom like a hammer forcing people to do or think as you do is dishonorable. Dalinar, uniting by example is honorable. Uniting by the sword as the blackthorn is dishonorable. Szeth, holding to a code or oath is honorable. Holding to a code or oath to the exclusion of all other information or context is dishonorable. 

[CabbageHead]

Hi all,

 

I skipped the last few pages of this thread because the arguments were getting repetitive, so apologies if I'm saying something that already been said. This whole thread seems to center around our perceptions of cowardice, honour, and justice. I think that is a very big mistake to make when thinking about the Shin, because they very obviously have a vastly different worldview than either us, or the other major viewpoint characters we have met. I could sit down, pull out the books and try to get as many examples as I can from what little we know of the Shin, but I'm not going to bother. One simple thing shows how alien these people are. They found what they believed to be the most evil possible person amongst them, made him a slave, and exiled him with an Honour blade. That's a bit like the US justice system finding the most heinous serial killer, giving him a carrier fleet, amphibious unit, tank squadron and a few army divisions, and then chucking a little rock into the midst of their enemies and telling him he needs to obey whoever holds the rock. There is something very strange about the Shin, and the Shamanate, and trying to understand Szeth is pointless without more information.