Szeth-son-son-Vallano

[Pathfinder]

@Bloodfalcon ah sorry for dragging you back into this then lol. 

 

@ Moogle I respond to your query thusly....no. YOU posited that his feelings regarding an afterlife was a "small" reason. YOU posited that the "smallness" of this reason was a valid cause this disregard the reason. So YOU can define how you came to the conclusion it was "small" and since you connected it to the scenario with Dalinar, YOU can apply the same reasoning to his situation and prove that it is applicable in both cases. By turning around and telling ME to define YOUR argument is a logical fallacy. It requires ME to do YOUR leg work, when my argument against it is that it is not a legitimate reason given that you have no evidence to back it up. By ME then defining it, I am thereby giving it validity, and proving your own point by trying to disprove it. You came up with the theory, so you provide the evidence supporting it. 

[Moogle]

To restate my arguments: Szeth says that by acting Truthless that he will exist in torment instead of ceasing to exist. He says this precisely once and never brings it up again. I feel that this is not the central reason he murders people because it is barely mentioned and because I feel that most people would prefer oblivion to eternal torment. I feel that Szeth stayed Truthless because he believes strongly in Stone Shamanism and holds this as a central part of his identity, and the afterlife is really a small aspect of Stone Shamanism. I've said this before, and it's all the evidence I feel I need to offer.

 

If you'd like to claim that Szeth wanting to exist in eternal agony is a very big reason he murders people, and he's a coward/selfish because of it, you're welcome to. It's a valid perspective, but one that I think places entirely too much emphasis on one paragraph Szeth says while he's being emo and trying to convince himself to continue doing what his master orders him to do. I also feel that it seems like you're attempting to see Szeth in the worst possible light.

 

Szeth is a person I disagree with on a fundamental level, and he's caused untold misery and suffering, but I don't see the need to assign as many bad labels to him as possible. He doesn't need to be a coward for me to dislike him, and I can fully acknowledge that he fits one definition of honorable ("adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct").

 

I think we've really hit the limits of this discussion. I get the impression that I've offended you or that you're feeling some moral outrage, so I apologize. I'll call it quits in this thread until a new line of discussion other than how much of a part Szeth's desire to be 'rewarded' in the afterlife played in his strong desire to stay true to Stone Shamanism.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Moogle

[Shards of Mist he/him]

I'm sorry Moogle, but I have a fundamental disagreement with what you are stating.

 

Being honorable means being someone who is worthy of honor.  Szeth is not worthy of honor in his actions.  Killing innocents to appease your masters is not honorable.  It is obedient, but obedience is not synonymous with honor.  You could say that Szeth is the most obedient man on Roshar and you would have no argument from me.  

 

The SS were the most obedient men on earth back in the 1940s, but just because they blindly followed their evil leader does not make them honorable men.

[Moogle]

Being honorable means being someone who is worthy of honor.  Szeth is not worthy of honor in his actions.  Killing innocents to appease your masters is not honorable.  It is obedient, but obedience is not synonymous with honor.  You could say that Szeth is the most obedient man on Roshar and you would have no argument from me.  

 

Going by one of the definitions here (as loathe as I am to use a dictionary in an argument), honor can be defined as "adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct". Szeth is upholding the tenets of Stone Shamanism (a conventional standard of conduct for the Shin) with distinction, despite the pain it causes him. There have been many different views on what is 'honorable' over the years, and some say that Szeth is honorable. Szeth himself feels he's honorable, and so does Nalan.

 

As well, and I may be wrong on this, obeying your master has been seen as synonymous with being honorable since the days of knights and castles. Typically there's an oath to a liege involved with any story of knights. A knight suffering as he honorably obeys a distasteful master is a theme in quite a lot of things. It's even touched on in WoR when Dalinar tells Kaladin he has to obey the king despite finding him to be a terrible person.

 

Disobeying has been seen as dishonorable since... forever, and I'm reasonably confident that it's mostly a modern view (due in part to WW2, I think) that it's immoral to obey immoral orders.

 

I'm not sure what else I can say, if anything. I guess we'll just have to disagree.

 

As something of a side note: I don't think Szeth's natural state is to obey. I suspect that, now that he knows he's not Truthless, he will not be obeying anyone any time soon and will instead show off that "Confident" attribute of the Skybreakers.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Moogle

[kari-no-sugata]

@kari-no-sugata, i understand you still need to verify those ideas, and I look forward to seeing your research, but I did just want to point out one thing. The shin view warriors as the lowest of the low. Almost like slaves has more standing in their minds than warriors do. Truthless are even worse. I am not saying they wouldn't have people training with the honor blades, and have a certain group made specifically for that. It does make sense to a degree. What I disagree with is the sense of being a priest. In most religions such a title is one viewed with respect, while what little we know Shin society, such a group would be viewed more as lepers I think. People with the "disease" of combat. Best to stay away from lest one learn such unholy actions.

 

Thanks for replying to my theory but there's clearly one thing I didn't communicate precisely enough: when I said that "I think they've also been maintaining active knowledge in Surgebinding as well - probably part of their religion" I meant Surgebinding in general and not combat related Surgebinding. You don't have to have the Blade drawn either to use the Surges it grants. So it would be perfectly possible for someone to "maintain active knowledge in Surgebinding" in a room by themselves. It doesn't require soldiers or "those that take away".

 

After re-reading all the Szeth scenes, the one obvious problem with my theory is that "probably part of their religion" part since I can't find anything which suggests the Shin think they might someday need those Surges again - there was something I thought might be it but on careful re-read I guess I remembered it wrong. Which means the only motivation I can invoke for them to "maintain active knowledge in Surgebinding" is academic curiosity.

 

Curiosity has killed many cats, as it were, but it's not much to base a theory on.

 

To explain one thing, the main reason why I think the Shin are somehow and for some reason "maintaining active knowledge in Surgebinding" is this bit at the end of WoR:

Still kneeling, Szeth looked up after the main. "My people have the other Honorblades, and have kept them safe for millennia. If I am to bring judgement to them, I will face enemies with Shards and with power."

 

Nin/Nalan agrees which why he brought Nightblood with him. They both absolutely expect to face Honorblade wielding Shin. But if no Shin have any practical idea or experience on how to use the Surges then Szeth's task would be laughably easy with Nightblood. Or putting it another way: the other Shin are dangerous precisely because there already exist people with practical experience of the other Honorblades. It could be alternatively argued that instead the Shin have no such experienced people and would be forced to acquire that knowledge by Szeth returning but that seems weak to me - doesn't make a good story for Szeth to have to face a bunch of newbie Surgebinders.

 

PS My original idea was that Szeth had only ever used the "Windrunner" Honorblade before. However, if we consider "academic curiosity" it's quite possible that he's used several - I had this idea that maybe he used the "Truthwatcher" Honorblade at some point and this allowed him to see the future or otherwise gave him insight into the possibility of the Voidbringers etc returning.

 

[hoser he/him]

I know nothing, but it seems to me that the Shamanate must be quite powerful.  I imagine that the way to maintain warriors as the lowest caste is to have Stone Shamans ready to keep them in their place.  Powerful, trained, violent Shamans, possibly weilding Honorblades would deal with any warriors who tried to improve their lot. 

[Pathfinder]

Only problem with that is it is stated throughout the books that farmers are viewed in the highest regard as creators while warriors are viewed as the lowest as destroyers. I am not saying I disagree with the notion of having a group trained in the honorblades, but based on their tenets, I would see the wielders of the swords still seen as very low in the hierarchy. Like a necessary evil. Kind of like how the untouchables are viewed in India for instance (if that comparison offended anyone or misrepresented that culture I apologize, that was not my intent). One other thing though I could see your theory making sense. If the shamanate LIED and though they teach warriors of any sort are bad, they in fact say so, so they can hold the power for themselves and if the radiants return, they lose that power

 

edit: also regarding surgebinding alone. From what I understand there are only 3 ways to surgebinder, if you are a herald, if you are a knight radiant, or if you have a fabrial. So if my assumptions are correct, then a shin would need to pick up a honorblade to surgebind. The merchant in the beginning of WoK, explained to his assistant that any who pick up a weapon are cast in this light. So just by holding the honorblade, regardless how the surgebinding is employed, would cast them as a warrior and thereby a low class. 

Edited May 2, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[hoser he/him]

All good points!  I really have more questions than answers.

Only problem with that is it is stated throughout the books that farmers are viewed in the highest regard as creators while warriors are viewed as the lowest as destroyers. I am not saying I disagree with the notion of having a group trained in the honorblades, but based on their tenets, I would see the wielders of the swords still seen as very low in the hierarchy. Like a necessary evil. Kind of like how the untouchables are viewed in India for instance (if that comparison offended anyone or misrepresented that culture I apologize, that was not my intent). One other thing though I could see your theory making sense. If the shamanate LIED and though they teach warriors of any sort are bad, they in fact say so, so they can hold the power for themselves and if the radiants return, they lose that power

 

edit: also regarding surgebinding alone. From what I understand there are only 3 ways to surgebinder, if you are a herald, if you are a knight radiant, or if you have a fabrial. So if my assumptions are correct, then a shin would need to pick up a honorblade to surgebind. The merchant in the beginning of WoK, explained to his assistant that any who pick up a weapon are cast in this light. So just by holding the honorblade, regardless how the surgebinding is employed, would cast them as a warrior and thereby a low class. 

If I can say so without being offensive, I do have infinite faith in the ability of organized religious systems to encompass inconsistencies.  I don't know how widespread the knowledge of the Honorblades is.  The Honorblades seem like holy objects that could have special status. For example, they could be holy weapons needed to protect the Creators from the warriors.  The Shamanate could learn kammar, except for a special few who trained with the holy hand grenadesHonorblades. 

 

This is all just wild speculation on my part.  Szeth did believe that the Shamans would retrieve the weapon if he were killed.  I can imagine a delegation of Honorblade weilding shamans being the means to accomplish this.  How they would find out where it was? 

 

Apparently one of their fundamental truths is the lies of the Heralds: that they won the war and Heralds, Radiants, Voidbringers and Desolations are no more.  So, I don't think they even have a plan for the return of the Radiants, which would mean the End of All Things.  I can easily imagine other rationalizations that would allow them to maintain expertise with the Honorblades among the Shamanate while relegating those weilding normal weapons to low status. 

[WitSpren he/him]

Hope I'm not deverting the current topic too much, but I just can't understand how deliberately "blind" Szeth was.    Mr T's bull about another Honorblade being stolen was hardly credable to begin with.     I know that Szeth was Crazy at that point, but surely that did not make him blind as well.     He had to Fly Over and Around and Everstorm and walk/fly around a blooming active battle with real Voidbringers.    Sure, he might have gotten there after they had all been killed or run off.    But the Everstorm with weird red lightening was right there!!    As well as an Very Odd uncalled for Highstorm.     And there had to be Voidbringer bodies all around where he met/fought Adolin.

 

This is just way beyond Self Denial.    

[Pathfinder]

I am not offended so no worries, but I will admit I do not have your faith that you hold that organized religions have systems in place to account for inconsistencies. In fact I believe many are rife with inconsistencies, but that is a debate/discussion for another day lol. I would disagree with you regarding honorblades being seen as holy objects to protect the creators from the warriors. Yes they guarded them for countless years, but they did also just give one to an individual they cast out into the world. Theoretically it would be rather difficult to protect yourself with a weapon that you pretty much give away. Yes in this case they have more honor blades than Szeth, but another one is gone, one is still in the possession of Taln, so the number of blades owned seems to be dwindling rather quickly. If you have a weapon for your own protection, you don't let that resource leave your possession easily. Regardless whether they intend to "pick it up later". Again I am not saying the shaman's don't have a group focused on training with the blades and using them, but I disagree that it would be the shamans themselves, and the individuals that use it be cast in any positive light by their society. Otherwise an already corrupt legal system edifaced by Szeth, would be even more so. "Hey holding weapons is bad, and your the lowest of the low. Except if you are like us shamans. we can hold them and kill with them. But all warrior are the bottom of the barrel. Except us, don't forget that, we are awesome, so um yeah."

Edited May 2, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Shaggai]

Hope I'm not deverting the current topic too much, but I just can't understand how deliberately "blind" Szeth was.    Mr T's bull about another Honorblade being stolen was hardly credable to begin with.     I know that Szeth was Crazy at that point, but surely that did not make him blind as well.     He had to Fly Over and Around and Everstorm and walk/fly around a blooming active battle with real Voidbringers.    Sure, he might have gotten there after they had all been killed or run off.    But the Everstorm with weird red lightening was right there!!    As well as an Very Odd uncalled for Highstorm.     And there had to be Voidbringer bodies all around where he met/fought Adolin.

 

This is just way beyond Self Denial.    

Look at all the people who deny that the moon landing ever happened, or claim that society is ruled by lizardmen. Now imagine what those people would be like if they were actually insane. People have an amazing capacity to ignore evidence in the face of their beliefs. Szeth isn't going particularly far, compared to some people even on Earth.

[Pathfinder]

Look at all the people who deny that the moon landing ever happened, or claim that society is ruled by lizardmen. Now imagine what those people would be like if they were actually insane. People have an amazing capacity to ignore evidence in the face of their beliefs. Szeth isn't going particularly far, compared to some people even on Earth.

 

Insane or not, if you take a moon land denier to the moon and show them the foot prints, show them the flag, etc I estimate they will at least START to go "hmmmm ya know what.....you miiiiiight be right"

[WitSpren he/him]

Sssswellll   ssstheeee  ssssspeepolssss  ssswhoooss  sssbelivesss    ssssinnss   sssstheeesss  ssslizardmenssss   ssshaveess  ssssobviouslyyysss   ssssbeennss    ssssinvolvedsss ssswithsss    sssssomessss  ssssaccidentalssss sssslobodomyssss ssssincidentssss   ssssandsss  ssshouldssss  sssclearlysssss   sssbeeess   ssssignoredsssss.

 

 

This post have been Approved by you Local Demoncrat Lizzards and Republic Lizzards

Edited May 2, 2014 by WitSpren

[Pathfinder]

Sssswellll   ssstheeee  ssssspeepolssss  ssswhoooss  sssbelivesss    ssssinnss   sssstheeesss  ssslizardmenssss   ssshaveess  ssssobviouslyyysss   ssssbeennss    ssssinvolvedsss ssswithsss    sssssomessss  ssssaccidentalssss sssslobodomyssss ssssincidentssss   ssssandsss  ssshouldssss  sssclearlysssss   sssbeeess   ssssignoredsssss.

 

 

This post have been Approved by you Local Demoncrat Lizzards and Republic Lizzards

Just wanted to say, thisssss isssss sssssome awssssomenesssssss

[WitSpren he/him]

Just wanted to say, thisssss isssss sssssome awssssomenesssssss

Thanks, but the Lizard government comment made me do it.    So I will give any up-votes earned should to you 

 

P4thf1nd3r.    I am weak and could not resist.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just want to know what Szeth is going to do.    

 

 

 

 

-  Kill the Shamanate for what they did to him.

 

-  Kill them for being wrong.

 

-  Turn them into Honorblade killers like they did to him & release them on the world.

 

-  Kill them so he/Nin can get the other Honorblades?

 

-  Turn into a Pawn to Psyco Nin like he was to his Oathstone, instead of killing as a puppet Assassan to his Oathstone.    Will he now kill per Nin's warped Justice?

 

 

-   Or will he grow a backbone and be able to rebuke Nin?

 

-  How about Nightshade - can he conquer it and turn it for true good?

[Shaggai]

Insane or not, if you take a moon land denier to the moon and show them the foot prints, show them the flag, etc I estimate they will at least START to go "hmmmm ya know what.....you miiiiiight be right"

 

There are plenty of kinds of conspiracy theorists. 9/11 truthers, people who believe the government is covering up UFOs, etc.

[Pathfinder]

 

There are plenty of kinds of conspiracy theorists. 9/11 truthers, people who believe the government is covering up UFOs, etc.

Doesn't change what I said. If you put hard physical proof right in their face, even the craziest of people will say "ya know what......you miiiiiight be right". So I just expanded on the moon deniers example already given. 

[Shaggai]

Doesn't change what I said. If you put hard physical proof right in their face, even the craziest of people will say "ya know what......you miiiiiight be right". So I just expanded on the moon deniers example already given.

But Szeth had an explanation, which was that Kaladin had an Honorblade. It doesn't matter that other explanations work better. People will go to extraordinary lengths to preserve their worldviews.

[Pathfinder]

I am refering to the second battle between Szeth and Kal. Each honorblade does what each order does. Szeth had the windrunner honorblade. Which means either Kal had the skybreaker, or he is a knightsradiant. He showed all the abilities of a wind runner, right in Szeths face. So real, physical evidence, right in his face. 

Edited May 4, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Shaggai]

I am refering to the second battle between Szeth and Kal. Each honorblade does what each order does. Szeth had the windrunner honorblade. Which means either Kal had the skybreaker, or he is a knightsradiant. He showed all the abilities of a wind runner, right in Szeths face. So real, physical evidence, right in his face.

In the second battle, Szeth can't really stop and think. He's trying to convince himself that he needed to kill all of those people. He's in the middle of massive cognitive dissonance, and doesn't know what to do. So he sticks with what he knows and goes off to kill Dalinar.

[Pathfinder]

Um, Kal and Szeth practically carry on a conversation during their battle. 

[Shaggai]

Um, Kal and Szeth practically carry on a conversation during their battle.

 

Yeah, and how stable and reasonable does Szeth seem during that?

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

 

Yeah, and how stable and reasonable does Szeth seem during that?

Only because he is coming to the realizations that you claim he is too busy to think about.

[kari-no-sugata]

Only problem with that is it is stated throughout the books that farmers are viewed in the highest regard as creators while warriors are viewed as the lowest as destroyers. I am not saying I disagree with the notion of having a group trained in the honorblades, but based on their tenets, I would see the wielders of the swords still seen as very low in the hierarchy. Like a necessary evil. Kind of like how the untouchables are viewed in India for instance (if that comparison offended anyone or misrepresented that culture I apologize, that was not my intent). One other thing though I could see your theory making sense. If the shamanate LIED and though they teach warriors of any sort are bad, they in fact say so, so they can hold the power for themselves and if the radiants return, they lose that power

 

edit: also regarding surgebinding alone. From what I understand there are only 3 ways to surgebinder, if you are a herald, if you are a knight radiant, or if you have a fabrial. So if my assumptions are correct, then a shin would need to pick up a honorblade to surgebind. The merchant in the beginning of WoK, explained to his assistant that any who pick up a weapon are cast in this light. So just by holding the honorblade, regardless how the surgebinding is employed, would cast them as a warrior and thereby a low class. 

 

Good point about the merchant interlude. I had forgotten that particular line: I had been thinking it was more like that it was the act of killing itself that was the true problem and weapons were tainted by association and not intricately "evil".

 

So, where does this leave my theory? Well, I still think there's "something" there about Szeth expecting to face Honorblade wielding Shin Surgebinders.... but I can't think of anything we could reasonably predict in advance, currently.

[Pathfinder]

Good point about the merchant interlude. I had forgotten that particular line: I had been thinking it was more like that it was the act of killing itself that was the true problem and weapons were tainted by association and not intricately "evil".

 

So, where does this leave my theory? Well, I still think there's "something" there about Szeth expecting to face Honorblade wielding Shin Surgebinders.... but I can't think of anything we could reasonably predict in advance, currently.

 

Oh I am definitely with you on that. I do agree there is some group within the Shin that would wield the honorblades, I just disagreed that it would be the stone shamans themselves, unless the entire culture system was corrupt, which based on what Nale said it very well could be.