[OB] About Divine Attributes and the Making of the Heralds

[AIAndy]

About Divine Attributes
The Divine Attributes listed for the Heralds are very interesting.
As discussed in the past, it seems that each Herald has one attribute that is associated with Honor and one that is associated with Cultivation.
I'd say that those attributes merged together form the Intent of the shard.
Similarly the Radiant Spren are made up of the same two divine attributes as the Herald with which they share a Radiant Order.
In them we can see that compounding attributes results in more than the sum of their parts. Cryptics are not well described by creative and honest, but show more of a Creative Honesty, making up new interesting truths.
It seems that surge access is filtered by those compounded attributes so the powers you gain change with it.
If you consider the divine attributes to be part of a mind, then it is not too far-fetched to assume that similar to emotional allomancy you can push or pull on it, rioting or soothing the respective attribute.
So while you need to be strong in the two Divine Attributes of an Order to attract the spren and ease the formation of the bond, once the bond is in place the Attributes of the spren will riot the respective Attributes in the mind of the Radiant Knight.

About the Making and Unmaking of the Heralds
From the Eila Stele we know that the Dawnsingers believed that the humans destroyed their previous world (Ashyn) with powers of spren and Surges (Surgebinding) and with them came a new god, their god (Odium).
I think it is quite likely that the spren bonded for Surgebinding here were voidspren of Odium. So what happened to the Surgebinders? Did they die or did they come along to Roshar?
And if they came along, I assume they came with their voidspren still bonded.
So what if one from each order of Surgebinders bonded to voidspren (maybe their leaders) is what later became the Heralds.
When Honor made the Heralds in the Oathpact, he merged their respective voidspren with either a Radiant Spren or a similar part of his own and Cultivation's investiture and bonded it closely to their cognitive shadow, making them more spren than man.
That means each Herald has a third unlisted divine attribute, associated with Odium, most probably related to emotion.
This likely also gave them somewhat different powers from the surges when not using their Honorblades.
Later Odium unmade them by breaking that bond and the spren part became the Unmade.
That means each Unmade should also have all three divine attributes (compounded), even if the one from Odium dominates.
The Heralds became insane afterwards. I think the reason is that breaking a bond leaves a wound in the spirit web that leaks the connected attribute, so after some time you are soothed more and more on it.
The previously rioted divine attributes are now soothed causing insanity from withdrawal and lack of balance in the mind.
In a way, I think Nale is less insane and I suspect it is because he bonded a Highspren. This would mean that a new bond on the same attributes can heal that wound to a degree so he mainly leaks the Odium attribute.

 

If this theory is true, then we should be able to match a Herald with an Unmade each, finding the two listed Divine Attributes and a third Odium attribute in each (compounded, so influencing each other, forming a whole).
For the Heralds during the Desolations those should be rioted, for the present day ones they should be soothed. Additionally voidspren and the Fused should provide hints about the respective Odium attribute of each type.
Finally Renarin probably has one of the Truthwatcher attributes switched for the respective Odium attribute (or it was added on top, which is even more likely).

The easiest match to look at is probably Jezrien and Nergaoul aka the Thrill. The listed attributes are Protecting and Leading. For the third I'd suggest something like Rage, as the battlerage protects and leads those the Thrill touches.
Present-day beggar Jezrien has quite some similarities to Dalinar in Thrill withdrawal.
There is not that much direct information about the behavior of old times Jezrien, but his clothing is supposed to be oftentimes stained and charred by battle and after Aharietiam he claimed to go to lead the "charge" for the Tranquiline Halls.
So I'd say it is not impossible that a battlerage is in character for him.

The second possible match I want to look at is Shalash and Re-Shephir. The listed attributes are Creative and Honest, but as stated above, that compounds more into Creative Honesty.
And Re-Shephir's Midnight Essences can take different forms similar to the illusions that Lightweavers are capable of (Midnight Essences have more substance though).
Given that Re-Shephir is attracted to violence, maybe the third attribute is something like violent (I don't really think it fits completely)? There is little about old times Shalash (that I can remember) except for Sadeas claiming a Shalashian temperament.
Present-day Shalash was mainly busy destroying any depictions of her past, lamenting her lost creativity and not appreciating the perception that people have of her. Soothed violence does not fit there.

[MountainKing]

So before they came to Roshar they access the surges by getting diseases. Now the diseases might cause them tonne able to bond with spren to grant surges, but if it did, they would only bond lesser spren.

[RShara she/her]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

So before they came to Roshar they access the surges by getting diseases. Now the diseases might cause them tonne able to bond with spren to grant surges, but if it did, they would only bond lesser spren.

We're not sure if that's how magic worked before whatever screwed up the planet.  Just that it's how magic (probably) works there now.

[Calderis he/him]

We do know that the system that destroyed Ashyn was not the same system that surgebinders use on Roshar though, so spren are unlikely.

Quote

Shardbound [PENDING REVIEW]

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

source

 

[AIAndy]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

We do know that the system that destroyed Ashyn was not the same system that surgebinders use on Roshar though, so spren are unlikely.

 

That WoB says there is a slight difference but the same basic principles which would be easily satisfied by the difference of voidspren associated with one shard and radiant spren associated with two shards and the difference in the kind of powers you get from the surges. The way that the bond is established is probably different as well as in no oaths and maybe you have to swallow a gemstone similar to how Amaram bonded Yelig-nar.

A system without spren bond would be more than a slight difference and also not really fitting to the Eila Stele: " They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. "

[Calderis he/him]

The issue there is that the word "spren" is ridiculously vague. It refers to living investiture. Period. A Shard would be called a spren. I meant that spren as we see on Roshar itself are unlikely as we have no evidence of them existing anywhere else. 

Quote

Questioner

Speaking of the Stormfather, would the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren be on the same level of spren as the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

...The Nightwatcher, yes. Um... There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also much-- a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that's what Cusicesh is.

Questioner

So the Nightwatcher is a spren you'd say?

Brandon Sanderson

The Nightwatcher-- I mean, they call the Nightwatcher a spren. Everyone in the books thinks the Nightwatcher is a spren. That's what they would call-- that's what they would call, if they knew what Honor was, they would call Honor a spren. A spren is Investiture that is alive.

Bystander

Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

So they would call Nightblood a spren. They would call-- That's the word for what all of these things are. They would probably've called Adonalsium a spren…

Moderator

What would Hoid call one of those?

Brandon Sanderson

What would Hoid call the Nightwatcher? *laughter* What would Hoid call one of what?

Moderator

Yeah what would Hoid call the Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

Um… *long pause/laughter*

Moderator

If Hoid were to use a non-proper noun?

Brandon Sanderson

Unpleasant names. *laughter*

source

 

[AIAndy]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

The issue there is that the word "spren" is ridiculously vague. It refers to living investiture. Period. A Shard would be called a spren. I meant that spren as we see on Roshar itself are unlikely as we have no evidence of them existing anywhere else. 

 

The kind of natural occurance as on Roshar is probably not present on Ashyn as it seems to require the occurance of investiture pools in the Cognitive Realm which I assume are related to the Highstorms. But Shards can create spren and we have seen some of those on other worlds. I think Odium created the voidspren for surgebinding on Ashyn, maybe even only one per type originally, somewhat larger than the typical KR spren.

[insert_anagram_here]

I like this theory, it ties up a lot of things together.

Maybe there are nine Unmade and ten Herald because humans were of Odium initially, their initial Heralds were nine, but when they came to Roshar one more was added in order to satisfy Honor, as part of the Oathpact. Ishar, the tenth is obviously that one and he probably doesn't have the respective divine attributes of Odium. He seems to have gone completely bonkers though, so how does that tie up here?

[RShara she/her]

9 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I like this theory, it ties up a lot of things together.

Maybe there are nine Unmade and ten Herald because humans were of Odium initially, their initial Heralds were nine, but when they came to Roshar one more was added in order to satisfy Honor, as part of the Oathpact. Ishar, the tenth is obviously that one and he probably doesn't have the respective divine attributes of Odium. He seems to have gone completely bonkers though, so how does that tie up here?

Brandon has said that humans weren't.....exactly of Odium originally.  Some of them listened to him, and he was important to what happened on Ashyn, but he wasn't really their god.

Also, the Heralds formed the Oathpact after the Fused started returning, so they definitely post-date arriving on Roshar.

[Bort he/him]

16 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I like this theory, it ties up a lot of things together.

Maybe there are nine Unmade and ten Herald because humans were of Odium initially, their initial Heralds were nine, but when they came to Roshar one more was added in order to satisfy Honor, as part of the Oathpact. Ishar, the tenth is obviously that one and he probably doesn't have the respective divine attributes of Odium. He seems to have gone completely bonkers though, so how does that tie up here?

I reckon there are ten Heralds and only nine Unmade because one of the Heralds never broke, until now, and the Everstorm is his Unmade. Take a look at the theory in my signature for more details.

[insert_anagram_here]

17 hours ago, RShara said:

Brandon has said that humans weren't.....exactly of Odium originally.  Some of them listened to him, and he was important to what happened on Ashyn, but he wasn't really their god.

I didn't mean that they were made of Odium as we know they pre-existed the Shattering. I mean that they became of Odium prior to coming on Roshar, that's why they needed to be nine before, but became ten on Roshar, in order to facilitate Honor's number.

17 hours ago, RShara said:

Also, the Heralds formed the Oathpact after the Fused started returning, so they definitely post-date arriving on Roshar.

I've been under the impression that the 'Fused' have only appeared after the Everstorm, did you mean the Listeners? I never said that the Oathpact happened before they came to Roshar, but there was another pact made with Odium on another planet.

1 hour ago, Bort said:

I reckon there are ten Heralds and only nine Unmade because one of the Heralds never broke, until now, and the Everstorm is his Unmade. Take a look at the theory in my signature for more details.

That is indeed a brilliant thread! Thanks for providing the heads up!  (sorry I'm out of upvotes  )

Edited February 21, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Bort he/him]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I've been under the impression that the 'Fused' have only appeared after the Everstorm, did you mean the Listeners? I never said that the Oathpact happened before they came to Roshar, but there was another pact made with Odium on another planet.

That is indeed a brilliant thread! Thanks for providing the heads up!  (sorry I'm out of upvotes  )

The Fused come in every Desolation (except possibly the first, maybe second). It's just this time around, they are carried by the Everstorm, and they don't return to Damnation when they die, instead being reborn in the next storm.

I'm glad you liked my theory  

[RShara she/her]

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I didn't mean that they were made of Odium as we know they pre-existed the Shattering. I mean that they became of Odium prior to coming on Roshar, that's why they needed to be nine before, but became ten on Roshar, in order to facilitate Honor's number.

I've been under the impression that the 'Fused' have only appeared after the Everstorm, did you mean the Listeners? I never said that the Oathpact happened before they came to Roshar, but there was another pact made with Odium on another planet.

That is indeed a brilliant thread! Thanks for providing the heads up!  (sorry I'm out of upvotes  )

No, the Fused returning are what caused the Desolations.  The Heralds and the Oathpact were to bind the Fused to Braize.  Whether there was a previous deal with Odium or not, it wouldn't involve the "Heralds" as we know them.  It would be very strange to have the same people who made a deal with Odium go to make a deal with Honor?

The stormfather explicitly states why the Heralds formed the Oathpact and what it does in chapter 38.  It's too long to post but here's a snippet.

 

Quote

THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG.

Quote

ONCE ONE BROKE, ALL TEN HERALDS RETURNED TO ROSHAR. THEY FOUGHT. THEY LED MEN. THEIR OATHPACT DELAYED THE FUSED FROM RETURNING IMMEDIATELY, BUT EACH TIME AFTER A DESOLATION, THE HERALDS RETURNED TO DAMNATION TO SEAL THE ENEMY AGAIN. TO HIDE, FIGHT, AND FINALLY WITHSTAND TOGETHER.

 

[Calderis he/him]

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

didn't mean that they were made of Odium as we know they pre-existed the Shattering. I mean that they became of Odium prior to coming on Roshar, that's why they needed to be nine before, but became ten on Roshar, in order to facilitate Honor's number.

RShara wasn't implying that Odium created them. She was saying that Odium was never their God. 

Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiences? Did Humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

source

Odium was heavily involved in the events on Ashyn, and humanity was somewhat open to him, but his role as their God was a perception of the Dawnsingers due to the timing of his arrival, not fact. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Calderis

[Rainier]

On 2/19/2018 at 3:48 PM, AIAndy said:

If this theory is true, then we should be able to match a Herald with an Unmade each

I did something similar in an older thread. Take a look if you like. I also made the Jezrien/Nergaoul connection.

 

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Whether there was a previous deal with Odium or not, it wouldn't involve the "Heralds" as we know them.  It would be very strange to have the same people who made a deal with Odium go to make a deal with Honor?

Why is that? How else did they have surges before they came to Roshar if they weren't fueled by another Shard's Investiture? Since I do not know of any other Shard on Braize the Rosharan System, I'm assuming it was Odium.

1 hour ago, RShara said:

ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION

I might be completely confused here, but I was under the impression that Odium is bound on Braize because of a Dawnshard. I think it was in one of Dalinar's visions?

28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The humans gave him more of an ear..

It depends how this is interpreted. I didn't say he became their god necessarily, but I've been thinking that they've made a deal with him somehow and when their planet got destroyed (probably by Odium's hand) they fled to Roshar, unknowing that Odium would follow them.

But yes, the Dawnsingers probably misinterpreted that humans were still in alliance with Odium, even if they were trying to flee.

Edited February 21, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Calderis he/him]

8 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I might be completely confused here, but I was under the impression that Odium is bound on Braize because of a Dawnshard. I think it was in one of Dalinar's visions?

As far as I'm aware, we only know it was by the design of Honor and Cultivation. The means by which it was achieved is not known, at least from what I've seen. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Calderis

[RShara she/her]

13 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Why is that? How else did they have surges before they came to Roshar if they weren't fueled by another Shard's Investiture? Since I do not know of any other Shard on Braize, I'm assuming it was Odium.

I might be completely confused here, but I was under the impression that Odium is bound on Braize because of a Dawnshard. I think it was in one of Dalinar's visions?

It depends how this is interpreted. I didn't say he became their god necessarily, but I've been thinking that they've made a deal with him somehow and when their planet got destroyed (probably by Odium's hand) they fled to Roshar, unknowing that Odium would follow them.

But yes, the Dawnsingers probably misinterpreted that humans were still in alliance with Odium, even if they were trying to flee.

Honor and Cultivation (and Odium) permeate the system, as does Adonlasium's power.  Remember that the entire system was created by Adonalsium on purpose.  H&C are focused on Roshar, but I believe some of their power and influence would be felt on all the other planets of the system.  We've also seen several planets that don't have Shards in residence, that still have magic systems.

The surges wouldn't have worked on Ashyn exactly the way we're familiar with.  No spren, for example.  They were likely weaker or harder to access.  But H&C not being there doesn't mean that surges couldn't be used.

We don't know the mechanism by which Odium is bound on Braize.  Odium could have lost a contest, or something.  Not enough data to hypothesize at this time.

Calderis already answered the last question.  I mean, it's possible some people made deals with Odium, and that's how they destroyed the planet.  I just don't think those would be the same people as the Heralds.  I don't see Honor looking favorably on people who deal with his enemy.

Edited February 21, 2018 by RShara

[insert_anagram_here]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As far as I'm aware, we only know it was by design  if Honor and Cultivation. The means by which it was achieved is not known, at least from what I've seen. 

Quote

“I wish I could do more,” repeated the figure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And … without the Dawnshards … Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone.” “Who are you?” Dalinar asked again. And yet, he thought he knew. “I am … I was … God. The one you call the Almighty, the creator of mankind.” The figure closed his eyes. “And now I am dead. Odium has killed me. I am sorry.”  The Way of Kings, Location 20420

 

[RShara she/her]

All that implies is that the Dawnshards are powerful and would help them against Odium.  Not that they were used to bind or constrain him.

[insert_anagram_here]

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

All that implies is that the Dawnshards are powerful and would help them against Odium.  Not that they were used to bind or constrain him.

Quote

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

—From the Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these "Dawnshards" are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies^[1]

 

Edit:

7 minutes ago, RShara said:

The surges wouldn't have worked on Ashyn exactly the way we're familiar with.  No spren, for example.

Quote

“ ‘They came from another world,’” Navani said, reading from her sheet. “ ‘Using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging. “ ‘We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. 

 

Edited February 21, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Calderis he/him]

Yeah, as R said. I see nothing in that quite that connects the Dawnshards to Odium's binding. Just Tanavast lamenting their loss as something that could have been used to continue the fight.

Edit: I'm well aware of the poem of Ista, it's been key as to why I thought that Moash's dagger was a Dawnshard though that's been refuted. 

I highly doubt that anything other than another Shard can completely bind a Shard. I would want some other evidence, as I doubt anything in world, which equate shards to gods, would hold them in the classification of the word "creature." 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Calderis

[RShara she/her]

I don't see what your argument is.  Can you state it along with your copy?

We've already established that the Dawnsingers were likely wrong about them worshipping Odium.  They describe things according to their understanding.  "of spren and surges" because that's the only way the Dawnsingers knew surges worked.  That doesn't mean that's how they worked exactly on Ashyn.

[insert_anagram_here]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Edit: I'm well aware of the poem of Ista, it's been key as to why I thought that Moash's dagger was a Dawnshard though that's been refuted. 

That's a very interesting thought. Is it easy for you to point me to the thread that this was discussed?

And I agree that Shards might be excluded by the definition of "any creature voidish or mortal", but since we currently don't know how powerful Dawnshards actually were, I'll still retain the fact that they were somehow used in the process of binding Odium on Braize, or at least helping Honor and/or Cultivation fight him. (Maybe to bind Heralds on a device/temple that would send them back to Braize?). I'm also getting the impression that they were somehow expended in the process, that's probably why it's an impossible task now.

13 minutes ago, RShara said:

I don't see what your argument is.  Can you state it along with your copy?

I'm sorry, I thought it was obvious from the bit I provided. Calderis seems to understood at least.

I meant that if "the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal" may have helped them against Odium, it could be because it is known to bind.

From the Eila Stele part I copied above, it seems that humans already knew 'Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges" before arriving to Roshar. Doesn't that imply that they had access to some other Investiture? If you know of Surges that do not use Investiture, of course, by all means, please let me know.

Even if the Dawnsinger assumption that humans worshiped Odium is wrong, that doesn't change the fact that they might be providing us with new information here. 

BTW, I never claimed that I thought that humans worshiped Odium, but as the original theory of this thread suggests "Another kind of spren, maybe a void spren could've come along along with the Surgebinders on Roshar."

Admittedly, we know that spren can be as vast as Stormfather and as small as emotion spren, so the meaning of 'spren' as Dawnsingers say could be anything between those spren sizes/powers. 

 

 

[RShara she/her]

11 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I meant that if "the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal" may have helped them against Odium, it could be because it is known to bind.

From the Eila Stele part I copied above, it seems that humans already knew 'Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges" before arriving to Roshar. Doesn't that imply that they had access to some other Investiture? If you know of Surges that do not use Investiture, of course, by all means, please let me know.

Even if the Dawnsinger assumption that humans worshiped Odium is wrong, that doesn't change the fact that they might be providing us with new information here.

 

I never said surges don't use investiture.  I said surges don't necessarily mean the use of spren.  Right now, on Ashyn, they are disease based.  Yet they have powers like flying, changing liquid colors, and some that were "very, very dangers."  Whatever they had at the time could resemble spren-granted surges enough to be called that without needing spren.

 

I also never said that the Dawnshards couldn't have been involved with binding Odium.  I said we didn't know if they had.

Edited February 21, 2018 by RShara