[OB] Theory on the origins of the Shin

[mattstocum]

Had a thought occur to me while reading   [OB] Theory: The Shin have the most  , the Shin, as we know them in the time of OB, aren't from Ashyn like the rest of humanity on Roshar. My only evidence for this is their eyes. The Shin are the only people on Roshar who do not have epicanthic folds (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/131-general-reddit-2016/#e3932). I think the only people from other worlds who we have confirmed also do not have epicanthic folds are from Scadrial (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190-rfantasy-ama-2013/#e4079), and from Sel (the fortune teller Kaladin meets at the lighthouse). I feel like we haven't seen a whole lot of world hoppers from Scadrial, but we certainly have from Sel. The Selish people also seem far more Cosmerically aware in general.

So, my basic theory, with out that much to support it, the current Shin are world hoppers from another planet, likely Sel, who came to Roshar at some point after the First Desolation, when the humans invaded the rest of Roshar. I feel like this could tie in very well with the Shin Invasion referenced in the linked thread. I'm thinking the Shin scout in the vision might be someone from Sel, who reports back to his people what happened, and they show up to grab the Honorblades, knowing what they represent, and thus begins the "Shin" invasion.

[galendo]

There's definitely something weird with the eyes of the Shin versus the non-Shin, but it's worth noting that Odium and his spren also have Shin-like eyes.  If humans came to Roshar with Odium, I'd imagine that he and his spren would look like them.

It doesn't mean the current Shin aren't more recent worldhoppers, of course, but...maybe the better question is, why does everyone else on Roshar not have Shin-style eyes?

[digitalbusker he/him]

In case it's not clear: I (a white dude) would look Shin to an Alethi. Basically everybody else on Roshar has an epicanthic fold on their eyes. Why? Unknown. It may be adaptive in some way for frequent exposure to highstorms, or some other environmental factor. It doesn't seem plausible for normal evolution to have produced this effect in the time allotted, but we know Stormlight exposure has had biological effects (immune system boost) so maybe it sped that up.

[mattstocum]

1 hour ago, digitalbusker said:

In case it's not clear: I (a white dude) would look Shin to an Alethi. Basically everybody else on Roshar has an epicanthic fold on their eyes. Why? Unknown. It may be adaptive in some way for frequent exposure to highstorms, or some other environmental factor. It doesn't seem plausible for normal evolution to have produced this effect in the time allotted, but we know Stormlight exposure has had biological effects (immune system boost) so maybe it sped that up.

The impression I got from some, admittedly old, WoBs is that epicanthic folds are kinda Cosmere standard, and the absence is something of note. Have any worldhoppers other than those from Sel or Scadrial been mentioned as looking Shin-like in Stormlight Archive? I don't recall Kaladin noting Azure as looking like she was Shin, or Zahel for that matter. That might not mean much for him due to [Warbreaker spoilers]

Spoiler

his ability to change his appearance.

Of course Odium looking Shin-like presents another option...could the Shin have been the original Voidbringers from Ashyn, and the rest of the humans on Roshar came at a later date? Perhaps the Shin came, did their conquest thing, and then reformed their ways, leading to the religious prohibition of walking on stone.

[digitalbusker he/him]

I do think it's pretty well established that Shinovar is the place with the longest continuous human presence on Roshar. (Mostly I'm thinking of the Stormfather's comments to Dalinar about it being "the land you were given", where "the plants and animals you brought with you could survive" {those quotes are from memory and are probably off}.)

The idea that there was a second large migration of humans from another world has to contend with the fact that we don't have in world evidence for it. Making the Shin the second group helps in that we do have references to a Shin invasion, but it requires a change to we we think we know about Shinovar.

I think it's more likely that the differing eye shape,--and other genetic weirdness (Alethi hair color heritability, for instance)--of the rest of Roshar is due to some combination of selection and mutation.

[MrHershybar]

So we know Odium first hit and splintered the shards on Sel and we also know that both worldhoppers seen in OB and also Odium himself have 'Shin' eyes could Odium have brought followers from Sel gathered in the conflict with Devotion and Dominion with him to the Roshar system?

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by MrHershybar
went a tad off topic

[RShara she/her]

2 hours ago, mattstocum said:

The impression I got from some, admittedly old, WoBs is that epicanthic folds are kinda Cosmere standard, and the absence is something of note. Have any worldhoppers other than those from Sel or Scadrial been mentioned as looking Shin-like in Stormlight Archive? I don't recall Kaladin noting Azure as looking like she was Shin, or Zahel for that matter. That might not mean much for him due to [Warbreaker spoilers]

  Reveal hidden contents

his ability to change his appearance.

Of course Odium looking Shin-like presents another option...could the Shin have been the original Voidbringers from Ashyn, and the rest of the humans on Roshar came at a later date? Perhaps the Shin came, did their conquest thing, and then reformed their ways, leading to the religious prohibition of walking on stone.

Mmmm I never got that impression.  Every time someone says something about a person with Shin-eyes, we basically assume they are a worldhopper.  Remember that Azure and Vasher can change their appearance to a degree.

Riino, in the lighthouse in Shadesmar, is an Elantrian,  Demoux is described as "having something wrong with their eyes".  I'm not sure about Galladon and Baon, but Galladon, at least, might be wearing an illusion.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

17 minutes ago, MrHershybar said:

So we know Odium first hit and splintered the shards on Sel and we also know that both worldhoppers seen in OB and also Odium himself have 'Shin' eyes could Odium have brought followers from Sel gathered in the conflict with Devotion and Dominion with him to the Roshar system?

Riino was on Sel way after Odium left it. He's a character in Elantris.
Who's the second Worldhopper? I don't have a name off the top of my head.

[RShara she/her]

49 minutes ago, MrHershybar said:

So we know Odium first hit and splintered the shards on Sel and we also know that both worldhoppers seen in OB and also Odium himself have 'Shin' eyes could Odium have brought followers from Sel gathered in the conflict with Devotion and Dominion with him to the Roshar system?

 

Odium Splintered D&D way before Elantris was originally built.  Possibly before humans even populated the planet (think hunter-gatherers).  It's definitely in human pre-history on Sel.  I don't see why Odium would pick some random primitives to assist him, when he finds ready fodder just about anywhere.

[Calderis he/him]

Felt is from Scadrial, and in Dalinar's Nightwatcher flashback it is said that he must have some Shin heritage because of his eyes. 

As far as we've seen, the epicanthic fold is a Roshar thing. I mean, odds are it exists elsewhere in the Cosmere, but Roshar is the only place that it is the dominant/prevailing trait. 

[digitalbusker he/him]

I know cover art isn't canon, but based on the cover of The Emperor's Soul, as well as the interior illustration from that section of Arcanum Unbounded, it seems likely that some of the people in MaiPon (which is on Sel, but a long way from where Elantris is set) have epicanthic folds.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

4 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

I know cover art isn't canon, but based on the cover of The Emperor's Soul, as well as the interior illustration from that section of Arcanum Unbounded, it seems likely that some of the people in MaiPon (which is on Sel, but a long way from where Elantris is set) have epicanthic folds.

That is an easy explanation, I bet the artist was told to make them set in "Asiatic culture" so he put the eyes like that.

I think in Roshar humans got the epicanthic folds after they expanded out of Shinovar, the Shin probably just look like the original people from Ashyn with little variation.