[OB] Magic Visualization

[insert_anagram_here]

I understand things a lot more visually so I made this in order to put my personal thoughts in order in regards to how the magic system works on Roshar. Since I'm new to the Cosmere (haven't read all the related books tbh) and I'm still trying to decipher the epilogue notes from the books, I wanted to put this out here and let me in on your thoughts, in order to make things clearer.

So how I've understood it so far, in order for a power to manifest in the Physical realm, it needs to exist in the Cognitive as an idea and pump Investiture from the Spiritual realm. Or to word it even more correctly, it's from the Spiritual realm that Investiture "falls" to the Cognitive, where some of it gets funneled into an idea/ideal/intent, and that idea manifests in the Physical world as a power like Heraldic powers, Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Old Magic and fabrials.

I've put up on the drawing above of what I currently understand as correct, but please feel free to correct me.

Interesting bits that I want to verify:

- Knight Radiants drew their power (presumably) from Cultivation and Honor (and no other Shard?). So what happens now that Honor is dead? 

- what Shard is behind the fabrials?

- when Honor died and his investiture started diminishing, the Oathpact weakened (got smaller and smaller) and that's why the Heralds might've started to go mad. I'm guessing their divine attributes were sustained by the Oathpact, and that's why they slowly started going mad? So it would make sense that Nale, who has become part of a Radiant order, has somehow started gaining Investiture from somewhere else, so his divine attributes would no longer be affected by Honor's intent anymore?

- gems and gemhearts somehow override the cognitive idea?

- Parshendi had gems in their hair, could that have been the reason they were available for Odium to turn them into Fused?

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by insert_anagram_here
typo

[Leyrann]

The Honor to Spren and Ideals arrow is definitely correct.

The one to gems most likely comes from either Honor + Cultivation (like Spren) or directly from Adonalsium and the way he built the world.

As for the gemhearts and the Fused, there should again be an arrow directly from Adonalsium, as the gemheart/spren symbiose is something that already existed before; we see that many, if not all, Rosharan creatures use it. Odium did create his own version with the Fused though.

[Wandering Investor]

The gems, gemhearts, and some of the spren existed before any of the three shards got there. The KR spren and maybe some of the others were created by Honor or Cultivation or both. Voidspren are a product of Odium. The placement of the Heralds, KR, and Fused are correct (most likely anyways, we don't know everything yet). The Ideals may have been created my Ishar, and not by the shards, but we also don't know that one either for sure.

KR draw their power from the spren and stormlight, not directly from either of the shards.

Fabrials are more of a science than a magic system, and may be able to exist without the shards, especially considering it works with the lesser spren who may have been around before H&C, but again can't say for sure.

Honor may be dead, but his investiture isn't diminishing. Dead for the shards is slightly different from normal death. Tanavast, the human that controlled the shard, aka the mind, is dead. But that won't cause his body, now his corpse, to diminish at all. Odium did shatter the shard, which causes it to break into smaller pieces, but the net sum remains the same. Which is why certain things that Honor powered are still in effect, such as the stormlight that comes from Highstorms, the bonds that shackle Odium, Honorspren, etc.

An additional note is to take the waterfall explanation for the realms with a grain of salt. That's an in-world interpretation. It might be right, or it might only be partially right, if that makes sense.

[Calderis he/him]

Radiants never drew their power from honor. Let me try to explain. 

The Heralds, though the Honorblades, did draw directly on Honor's investiture. They had no need of stormlight. With honor dead the Honorblades aren't able to do this any longer. 

In contrast, the Spren themselves are composed of a mixture of honor and Cultivation. The Radiants have always used Stormlight though. While this investiture is touched by Honor now, stormlight existed before the shattering. It is a part of the way Roshar functions. Honor's death does not interrupt that. 

The Radiants themselves connection to the Shards is the Spren. 

As to the Heralds madness, my personal belief is that it is an overwhelming internal conflict for all save Taln. For him, I think it's just extreme PTSD from millenia of torture. For the others though... 

All of the Heralds are Cognitive Shadows made immortal through Honor's investiture. Their spiritwebs are suffused and made permanent by investiture colored with the intent of Honor. And yet they broke the Oathpact. 

So I believe they're continual degradation is due to an unending conflict between what they have become, and what they've done. 

[Scion of the Mists]

38 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Heralds, though the Honorblades, did draw directly on Honor's investiture. They had no need of stormlight. With honor dead the Honorblades aren't able to do this any longer. 

How is it then that Honorblades are now able to be powered by Stormlight.  Were they originally created with this ability, or is this something new?  

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said:

How is it then that Honorblades are now able to be powered by Stormlight.  Were they originally created with this ability, or is this something new?  

I think the capability was always there. Having access to the surges gives it, and it's implied through certain worldhopping characters that it's accessible in other ways too. 

The Honorblades just didn't need it. 

[Wandering Investor]

The honorblades grant the Surges, which have always been powered by stormlight. In the past, Honor supplied this directly to the Heralds. The KR, and non heralds bearing honorblades, have to absorb stormlight from the Highstorms or gems.

[Calderis he/him]

28 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

The honorblades grant the Surges, which have always been powered by stormlight. In the past, Honor supplied this directly to the Heralds. The KR, and non heralds bearing honorblades, have to absorb stormlight from the Highstorms or gems.

The surges can be powered by other things, and Stormlight is not Honor's pure investiture. The Heralds had no need of stormlight, as a direct connection with honor would have fed them in much the same way as Preservation can directly fuel an allomancer without the need for metals

Mistborn spoilers 

Spoiler

As Vin did with Elend I  the climax of HoA. 

Quote

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

source

 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Calderis

[Wandering Investor]

@Calderis I'm working on the assumption that Cultivation and Honor's investiture take the form of stormlight, similar to how both Ruin and Preservation had metal and mist investiture. But you are correct that Honor's pure investiture (which powered the Heralds), may be different. 

I can't recall a scenario in which the surges(KR/honorblade bonds specifically) are powered by something other than stormlight, do you know of one?

[Palindrome]

59 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The surges can be powered by other things, and Stormlight is not Honor's pure investiture. The Heralds had no need of stormlight, as a direct connection with honor would have fed them in much the same way as Preservation can directly fuel an allomancer without the need for metals

Mistborn spoilers 

  Hide contents

As Vin did with Elend I  the climax of HoA. 

 

 

That's am awesome RAFO. That means we can expect to see something like it in the future. Why must he have such large gaps between books?

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

@Calderis I'm working on the assumption that Cultivation and Honor's investiture take the form of stormlight, similar to how both Ruin and Preservation had metal and mist investiture. But you are correct that Honor's pure investiture (which powered the Heralds), may be different. 

I can't recall a scenario in which the surges(KR/honorblade bonds specifically) are powered by something other than stormlight, do you know of one?

In book we haven't, but we know it's possible. 

Quote

Leinton (paraphrased)

Can Breath be used to power Surgebinding?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They are very similar Investitures, and most of the magics can be powered with the other magics if you are capable of making that happen.

Questioner (paraphrased)

What would happen to the Breath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Breath would be consumed in the same way that Stormlight is. A renewing resource, much like atium is.

source

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Can a Surgebinder use Breath like they can Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

This is possible and not really that hard to make work.

source

 

[Wandering Investor]

@Palindrome Hopefully in one of the next few books we can see one of the Heralds do it. That's dependent on whether they can still be fueled by Honor or not, but its the only likely scenario I see. Or a fused being fueled by Odium?  

The only likely scenario to bring about something like that is with Shards battling through minions. 

 

And neat on the breaths. I wonder if that's just a hypothetical or if it will be a thing in the books.

[insert_anagram_here]

Thanks for all the input, I'll be updating the chart soon so I'd appreciate more comments on that as well.

20 hours ago, Calderis said:

In contrast, the Spren themselves are composed of a mixture of honor and Cultivation. The Radiants have always used Stormlight though. While this investiture is touched by Honor now, stormlight existed before the shattering. It is a part of the way Roshar functions. Honor's death does not interrupt that. 

I got another question that relates to this:

Quote

- Knight Radiants drew their power (presumably) from Cultivation and Honor (and no other Shard?). So what happens now that Honor is dead? 

Could it be possible that now that Honor is dead Highstorms aren't 'touched by Honor' anymore? Knowing that Sja-anat exists, could she have somehow corrupted Stormfather and the use of Stormlight is now corrupted by her presence? Especially if that use of Stormlight is no longer filtered by the Ideals and a spren's approval?

Edit: ...or maybe not Sja-anat but the Everstorm?

Edited February 20, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Wandering Investor]

Depends on what the Highstorms were like before Honor was around. Brandon has stated that the Highstorm was significantly changed during the last few thousand years. I think this is most likely Honor meddling with it and connecting the storm to him in order to supply (larger qualities?) stormlight. And while Honor is dead, and his corpse is broken into pieces, its still around. The SF could still be connected to a portion of Honor's power and still supply stormlight that way. But to know for sure, we'd have to know what the highstorms were like before H&C, what they were like during Honor, and compare that to now.

And Sja-anat seems to be limited to what spren she can corrupt, and I doubt the SF has any reason to fear her. Well, he might fear what she'll do to his "children", but not him directly.

[insert_anagram_here]

Okay, what about the Everstorm?

Like the water cycle on Earth, what if in Roshar the Highstorm's Investiture, which normally charges up spheres, is slowly being joined/corrupted by the Everstorm's Investiture now?

[Wandering Investor]

Not likely, as stormlight just fades and makes its way back to the source. So far as I know, Shards generally can't steal other shards investitures. The only example of this is Preservation and Ruin, but I'm inclined to believe that was a unique event. If this were the case we'd see stormlight being absorbed during the everstorm. Important thing to remember here is that the Highstorm is the conduit, not the actual source. And as for attacking the highstorm itself, any times the storm cross path they only get stronger, not weaker.

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Not likely, as stormlight just fades and makes its way back to the source. So far as I know, Shards generally can't steal other shards investitures. The only example of this is Preservation and Ruin, but I'm inclined to believe that was a unique event. If this were the case we'd see stormlight being absorbed during the everstorm. Important thing to remember here is that the Highstorm is the conduit, not the actual source. And as for attacking the highstorm itself, any times the storm cross path they only get stronger, not weaker.

In the example of Preservation and Ruin, Preservation still wasn't able to "steal" Ruin's investiture. It was just locked into a form that it was inaccessible to Ruin. It didn't become a part of Preservation. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

I'm inclined to believe that was a unique event.

It's not that far removed from what Odium does, funnily enough.

Quote

Lance Alvein (paraphrased)
You've said that "The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away". How does one Shard steal a portion of another Shard and create a Physical outlet for it, like the Pits were for Ruin's power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
It has to do with clash between the two Shards' power. When pressed, he then said that it was "kind of" like splintering.

[Wandering Investor]

@The One Who Connects Reading that actually reminds me of another time when that occurred. When Odium first attacked Ambition near Threnody, he sliced off some of Ambition's power. 

So not so much a unique event. But back to Leyrann's original query, the Everstorm still wouldn't likely drain the Highstorm. Previous examples of Shards taking away other shard's powers involves a direct Shardic attack. Also, the SF likely would have commented if the Everstorm interfered with the Highstorm in any way.