[OB] Underwhelming

[IronBars he/him]

8 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

It may be because I do audiobook, but I felt like the book flew by, filler and all. Or that I found the filler interesting enough to keep me.. invested..no pun intended.

But then in twok.. how many fewer bridge runs could have been put in? To me that was the slowest-paced of the 3 so far.. to the point I cringed every time a Kaladin backstory chapter came up.

Fewer then shallen chapters with identity crisis or bottling of the truth, in OB

And the story progressed, kaladin grew as a person grew into what he could do etc

Edited February 19, 2018 by IronBars

[theuntaintedchild he/him]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 11:13 AM, Calderis said:

This isn't a power up anime

This. Just This. I love the realistic portrayal of mental illness. Sometimes it is one step forward and two steps back. Development is change. Positive or negative. I will admit this book was slower going for me but I loved the direction they took each character. I probably won't know for sure if I find the book underwhelming until my second time reading it. I'm still in the phase of first read through giddiness.

[agrabes]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Here's the deal that I've seen with every complaint about OB, and you said it in your first post. 

The problem isn't the story itself, which if you don't like for what it is fine. The problem is expectation. 

Kaladin isn't the main character, he's one of a cast. The main complaint is his reduced arc though. Which I find odd, as the build up of the Parsh as people instead of cartoon villains, and his wanting to defend them leading up to his failures was a beautiful arc. In the back 5, he's going to be a more minor character like Jasnah, so this is something people need to get used to. 

For Shallan, I'm not sure what people expected, but swearing an oath doesn't mean you have to get better. We have Savants as one way in which we've seen progression does not equal progress. Even the the back of the book mentions that the bond can widen the cracks in the soul. 

For Adolin this is the major thing. The community built up the repercussions of Sadeas' death into a major story, but Adolin has never been a major PoV character. He's always been there to supplement the others, and the storyline made perfect sense. Sadeas death sparked the Midnight Essence, which confused the issue, and then Adolin was placed at the head of the investigation ensuring it went no where. The political strife of nothing being done made the ending with the Sadeas army possible. Fr Adolin personally, he worked himself constantly to avoid thinking about it, and in the end decided he was sorry. It all made perfect sense but it wasn't the story people expected. 

The complaints I've seen, both here and from others, are a result of wanting the story to progress one way, and creating their own disappointment. 

My only issues with OB are some pacing problems. It's not Brandon's greatest ever, but the characters progress naturally other than Moash's abrupt 180.

Droo the expectations before you start reading and it's a pretty good book. Go in thinking it's a different story than your getting... 

I agree with your points, especially about Adolin.  The big issue people are having with his OB storyline is that they want him to step into the spotlight and become a major character.  It's just not going to happen and people need to come to terms with it.  He's a secondary character, a good one, but still secondary so his issues are going to be dealt with from that frame of reference.

I still agree somewhat with the OP though - I felt like after "Book One" (the promotional material released slowly on Tor.com), OB really started dragging and becoming unfocused.  For as much that happened in OB, and a lot did happen, it felt like the story barely moved forward.  The whole book was building up to a huge climactic battle with Odium, which turned out to be fairly anti-climactic because it didn't really lead to any changes other than Dalinar's own personal development as a character and Amaram's death.  I guess you could say the success was that they stopped Odium's advance, but I would almost rather have seen the book end with them losing the conventional battle for the city of Thaylen because then something climactic happens: Dalinar gets a huge power up and resists Odium, but it's still too little too late and Thaylen has already fallen to the conventional troops and the Alliance has to retreat back to Urithiru licking its wounds with Odium only barely staved off and ready to come back at them at any moment.

Also to the OP: This is not a shot at you at all, but I'm curious as to why you find the character development in this book lacking while being a huge Malazan fan.  That series seems to be 100% devoted to the overarching story of a world over the story of characters.  Those books are unappealing to me because I prefer books which are about characters and how they react to events in the larger world and (IMO) the Malazan books treat characters as a lens to view the world and its developments.  So to me, one reason I find OB a little disappointing is that it seems like Sanderson is sliding more toward that style of writing (has a big story of an entire universe to tell and that is increasingly becoming his goal rather than telling the story of Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, etc), but Malazan has always been written in that style.

[Calderis he/him]

7 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Also to the OP: This is not a shot at you at all, but I'm curious as to why you find the character development in this book lacking while being a huge Malazan fan.  That series seems to be 100% devoted to the overarching story of a world over the story of characters.  Those books are unappealing to me because I prefer books which are about characters and how they react to events in the larger world and (IMO) the Malazan books treat characters as a lens to view the world and its developments.  So to me, one reason I find OB a little disappointing is that it seems like Sanderson is sliding more toward that style of writing (has a big story of an entire universe to tell and that is increasingly becoming his goal rather than telling the story of Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, etc), but Malazan has always been written in that style.

This is one of the reasons I asked what the OP's definition of character development is. 

I read 7 Malazan books at the urging of friends. I hated them, because the characters are almost completely static. Power levels increase, and the world and plot are important.. But the characters remain fundamentally the same throughout. 

[Stark he/him]

22 minutes ago, IronBars said:

You invented fire moss ?

I think you're missing the point here, hopefully not deliberately.  @Dreamstorm most likely had no hand in inventing Firemoss.  If I read his comment correctly, he is pointing out that you are trying to dictate how addiction should work for a fictional substance that Sanderson created. Earth rules need not apply, because they are not on earth.  Trying to apply Earth rules to Roshar drugs as a criticism makes for a flawed argument.  You could make them same argument against the trees that fall over then right themselves in Edgedancer - that's not how trees work on Earth, so it must be wrong.

I am lucky enough to not have any personal experience with drug addiction, or mental illness, and I know of no person in my immediate circle who suffers from addiction.  Nor have I studied the psychology of these conditions. I am not qualified to comment on this.  But I trust that Brandon did his research, and that trust is backed up by people on this site who have lived with mental illness extolling how well Brandon has handled various aspects of mental illness.  We do not know what the long term affects of firemoss abuse are because we only have to abusers with screen time.  One gets magical aid to remove his justification for using it and forcefully quits cold-turkey.  The other was forced to quit by extreme poverty, and then has since backslid hating himself the whole way.  We have limited info on how this plays out, but I don't think its been poorly handled so far.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Stark

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, IronBars said:

Ok that is completely irrelevant.

It's an example. Memories can fade away the normal way just as easily as the magical way, and if you don't have them anymore, they don't affect who you are anymore.

1 minute ago, IronBars said:

He forged himself into that man, because and only because he had the memories taken away. If they weren't taken away he wouldn't be that person..

The fact of the matter is those memories were taken away. He is the man he is because of it, yes. But that doesn't make the man he was a lie. For it to be a lie, he'd have to be putting up a persona and denying the truth, like Shallan and Amaram.

He physically did not have the memories that would have made him the Blackthorn. He has no way to be who he was before, and his only choice is to become who he became. It was physically impossible for that man to be a lie, because it's the only truth he had at the time.

8 minutes ago, IronBars said:

What you're saying is basically if they found Hitler today, and he spent the last 70 years working with disadvantaged kids in Argentina it makes up for what he did, no it doesn't. He still is who he was and deserves to be punished for who he was regardless of who he became. 

This is just as irrelevant as you felt my example was, if not more. The only reason you were able to make this example in the first place is because you aren't seeing what I'm saying. This was never what we were arguing about, which makes it irrelevant.

Hitler knows what he did, and any attempt on his part to deny that would be putting up a false persona. That would be living a lie, like Shallan did for the longest time. But Dalinar did not remember what he did. There is nothing for him to deny, no lie for him to live. That's the difference here.

---

I'm going to assume something important/life-defining happened to you in recent years for this bit. If you got struck by lightning(or somesuch other trauma) and lost many of your memories from the past 20+ years, lived a changed life without those memories during the next 7 years, and then started regaining those memories. Does that make who you were during that 7 year gap a lie? I wouldn't consider it as such. Would the experiences you had during that time-gap have any affect on who you become after regaining your lost memories? I'd say they would, because they are still part of who you are. You still lived through those years, you still have those memories, they should continue to affect you.

This is what we're actually arguing about. Not whether you are still responsible for any events that you've forgotten, but whether the man you were during that 7 year gap without memories was really you.

[Dreamstorm]

8 minutes ago, IronBars said:

You invented fire moss ?

Uhhhh, no.  That would be Brandon Sanderson.  The guy who you're saying doesn't portray correctly the addiction to a drug he actually fabricated.

10 minutes ago, IronBars said:

As i said previously if your addicted to a drug to the point your selling your clothes to feed your habit then you are not ligbtly addicted to a drug you are heavily addicted to it, now yes people behave differently but there is more in common between individual addicts then differences at that point.

I agree Teft appears quite badly addicted by the time of OB.  I don't agree that the hints we get in WoR - which are from Kaladin's PoV -  are inconsistent with that.  (We have one short viewpoint from Teft in WoR, which is focused on telling us about the Envisagers.  He does, however, skip meals while watching the chasms, which aligns with your list of expected reactions to firemoss addiction, something I hadn't thought was connected but maybe is?)

[IronBars he/him]

15 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I agree with your points, especially about Adolin.  The big issue people are having with his OB storyline is that they want him to step into the spotlight and become a major character.  It's just not going to happen and people need to come to terms with it.  He's a secondary character, a good one, but still secondary so his issues are going to be dealt with from that frame of reference.

I still agree somewhat with the OP though - I felt like after "Book One" (the promotional material released slowly on Tor.com), OB really started dragging and becoming unfocused.  For as much that happened in OB, and a lot did happen, it felt like the story barely moved forward.  The whole book was building up to a huge climactic battle with Odium, which turned out to be fairly anti-climactic because it didn't really lead to any changes other than Dalinar's own personal development as a character and Amaram's death.  I guess you could say the success was that they stopped Odium's advance, but I would almost rather have seen the book end with them losing the conventional battle for the city of Thaylen because then something climactic happens: Dalinar gets a huge power up and resists Odium, but it's still too little too late and Thaylen has already fallen to the conventional troops and the Alliance has to retreat back to Urithiru licking its wounds with Odium only barely staved off and ready to come back at them at any moment.

Also to the OP: This is not a shot at you at all, but I'm curious as to why you find the character development in this book lacking while being a huge Malazan fan.  That series seems to be 100% devoted to the overarching story of a world over the story of characters.  Those books are unappealing to me because I prefer books which are about characters and how they react to events in the larger world and (IMO) the Malazan books treat characters as a lens to view the world and its developments.  So to me, one reason I find OB a little disappointing is that it seems like Sanderson is sliding more toward that style of writing (has a big story of an entire universe to tell and that is increasingly becoming his goal rather than telling the story of Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, etc), but Malazan has always been written in that style.

How many books of malazan you read ?

 

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is one of the reasons I asked what the OP's definition of character development is. 

I read 7 Malazan books at the urging of friends. I hated them, because the characters are almost completely static. Power levels increase, and the world and plot are important.. But the characters remain fundamentally the same throughout. 

Read them again

Ye missed alot

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, IronBars said:

Read them again

Ye missed alot

No thanks. I didn't enjoy them the first time, not doing it again. 

[Bort he/him]

2 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Read them again

Ye missed alot

Something that could just as easily be said to you with regards to the Stormlight Archives. You have all of these complaints, yet you also seemed to have missed a lot of the little bits in the earlier books.

[IronBars he/him]

2 minutes ago, Stark said:

I think you're missing the point here, hopefully not deliberately.  @Dreamstorm most likely had no hand in inventing Firemoss.  If I read his comment correctly, he is pointing out that you are trying to dictate how addiction should work for a fictional substance that Sanderson created. Earth rules need not apply, because they are not on earth.  Trying to apply Earth rules to Roshar drugs as a criticism makes for a flawed argument.  You could make them same argument against the trees that fall over then right themselves in Edgedancer - that's not how trees work on Earth, so it must be wrong.

I am lucky enough to not have any personal experience with drug addiction, or mental illness, and I know of no person in my immediate circle who suffers from addiction.  Nor have I studied the psychology of these conditions. I am not qualified to comment on this.  But I trust that Brandon did his research, and that trust is backed up by people on this site who have lived with mental illness extolling how well Brandon has handled various aspects of mental illness.  We do not know what the long term affects of firemoss abuse are because we only have to abusers with screen time.  One gets magical aid to remove his justification for using it and forcefully quits cold-turkey.  The other was forced to quit by extreme poverty, and then has since backslid hating himself the whole way.  We have limited info on how this plays out, but I don't think its been poorly handled so far.

Look at teft missing time, waking up not knowing where he is, drool coming out his mouth  all signs of a strong highly addictive drug, which cannabis is not and meth/cocaine is, so paralleled it. Rightly or wrongly everyone equated firemoss to a drug on earth, 

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's an example. Memories can fade away the normal way just as easily as the magical way, and if you don't have them anymore, they don't affect who you are anymore.

Incorrect, in that instance the man you become is forged from who you were, in dalinars case its forged from what he was made.

Big difference.

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm going to assume something important/life-defining happened to you in recent years for this bit. If you got struck by lightning(or somesuch other trauma) and lost many of your memories from the past 20+ years, lived a changed life without those memories during the next 7 years, and then started regaining those memories. Does that make who you were during that 7 year gap a lie? I wouldn't consider it as such. Would the experiences you had during that time-gap have any affect on who you become after regaining your lost memories? I'd say they would, because they are still part of who you are. You still lived through those years, you still have those memories, they should continue to affect you.

 

This is what we're actually arguing about. Not whether you are still responsible for any events that you've forgotten, but whether the man you were during that 7 year gap without memories was really you.

No it isnt you, its a version of you that would never exist without a specfic set of circunstances and if it didnt happen its not who you would be therefore it is a lie/fake however you wanna put, you cant become someone else entirely without knowing who you are.

10 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Uhhhh, no.  That would be Brandon Sanderson.  The guy who you're saying doesn't portray correctly the addiction to a drug he actually fabricated.

 

Exactly so how teft is in WoR doesnt stack up with how he is in OB, the foreshadowing we see isnt to the degree of addict he ends up being, hence it is out the blue as such, thats all im saying.

[IronBars he/him]

7 minutes ago, Bort said:

Something that could just as easily be said to you with regards to the Stormlight Archives. You have all of these complaints, yet you also seemed to have missed a lot of the little bits in the earlier books.

Iv read tWoK and WoR numerous times, as far as i recall there was one abstract thing mentioned here by someone else that i didnt recall so not sure what your on about

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, IronBars said:

No it isn't you, its a version of you that would never exist without a specific set of circumstances and if it didn't happen its not who you would be therefore it is a lie/fake however you wanna put, you cant become someone else entirely without knowing who you are.

Your disagreement has been noted.

[IronBars he/him]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

No thanks. I didn't enjoy them the first time, not doing it again. 

MBoTF is too complicated for alot of people, most give up on book 3/4 that do give up

[IronBars he/him]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

Your disagreement has been noted.

All i can say to this is lol

[Bort he/him]

1 minute ago, IronBars said:

Iv read tWoK and WoR numerous times, as far as i recall there was one abstract thing mentioned here by someone else that i didnt recall so not sure what your on about

Apparently not, otherwise you'd be on the same page as the rest of us, with regards to the various pieces of foreshadowing that has been seen. I'm not saying you would have spotted all of them, or even came to the same conclusions as the rest of us, but your arguments in this very thread tell us that you missed loads of stuff. Only now you're claiming you didn't miss it at all. Only, if you didn't miss it all, you wouldn't have the problems you do with Oathbringer.

[Walkerxes]

23 minutes ago, Bort said:

Apparently not, otherwise you'd be on the same page as the rest of us, with regards to the various pieces of foreshadowing that has been seen. I'm not saying you would have spotted all of them, or even came to the same conclusions as the rest of us, but your arguments in this very thread tell us that you missed loads of stuff. Only now you're claiming you didn't miss it at all. Only, if you didn't miss it all, you wouldn't have the problems you do with Oathbringer.

That's not necessarily true.. everyone interprets things differently. Hence the flaws with The Diagram

With Teft, though.. why wasn't he addicted in twok? No access, no spheres. Why not in WoR? Not a lot of limelight, but also, still striving to not fail Kaladin and bridge 4.. by OB he'd lost his battle and fell off the wagon. Not a big stretch to believe he'd fall off the wagon between those 3 books.. I've seen people follow similar progressions with alcohol in real life. It still annoyed me, but I understood it.

I actually also believe that part of what happened with Teft was put in to show that not all of the ideals are exactly the same.. "I will protect those I hate, if it is right" vs "I will protect those I hate, even if the one I hate is myself"

Edited February 19, 2018 by Walkerxes

[RShara she/her]

Guys, arguing about opinion is really not going to get anyone anywhere Some people liked how OB went, some didn't.  Each opinion is valid, and I hope that if OB disappointed you, that SA 4+ will be more what you are hoping for.

 

I, personally, would do a reread of the entire series, checking for foreshadowing and hints as to things that you didn't expect, to see if they are there, before claiming they shouldn't be there, but that's me.

[Alderant she/her]

Admittedly, I'm coming into this discussion late, but I'd like to make some observations here:

First, @IronBars, if you want to perpetuate a discussion, you need to tone down your arguments, bud. Reading through all three pages, I get the repeated consistency that you're either A) getting too heated in this debate, or B ), you're not rereading your replies before posting them because you're coming off quite abrasive and antagonistic. Good discussion is perpetuated when both sides are willing to discuss what they have read, which I have seen several people attempt to do on here. You, however, are not encouraging a discussion--you do, however, appear to be perpetuating an argument where you're not willing to budge unless everyone else deigns to acknowledge how right you are, which most people appear to not be. I, and many others I'm sure, don't mind discussing the particulars of OB with you--however, in order for that to occur, you have to get off your high horse and actually read between the lines of what others are saying, and not simply react off the cuff to whatever you disagree with. Acknowledging someone else's arguments, even if you disagree, goes a long way to perpetuating an open forum.

Second, punctuation and spelling. This is largely one of the reasons your arguments are coming across as off the cuff, rather than carefully considered. Lack of proofreading makes it difficult to read your words without frustration.

Third, while I understand you're disappointed by Oathbringer, I found most of your points to be the opposite in actuality. However, judging from the way you write and the complaints you raise, I'm assuming you prefer overt developments rather than subtle. I'm also assuming you prefer conflicts to occur through big moments, rather than small developments here and there, and I imagine you probably disliked The Well of Ascension because it dragged on for you. If I'm wrong, I would love for you to enlighten me on how exactly, because as I see it, Oathbringer was a phenomenal book for plot and character development. While I agree that the character arcs were largely shunted aside in favor of the overall plot, as @Calderis and @maxal noted, to say that no character development occurred at all in OB is to basically say you either didn't comprehend the development, or you were frustrated by the lack of progress that occurred. Overall, there was a lot of development for Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan. That has been noted repeatedly on here. The development was not generally forward (progress) for Kaladin or Shallan, but that does not mean that they did not change.

Fourth, I've noted this elsewhere but I'll say it again here: Lightweavers do not swear ideals beyond the first. Unlike Kaladin, who literally binds himself to an ideal (i.e. I will protect those who cannot protect themselves), Shallan binds herself to an aspect of self-awareness. We call these Truths, but they do not operate the same way that ideals do--Shallan can't "mean" her Truth before she makes it because it is an ongoing process of self awareness.

Finally, I would do as @RShara recommended above:

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Guys, arguing about opinion is really not going to get anyone anywhere Some people liked how OB went, some didn't.  Each opinion is valid, and I hope that if OB disappointed you, that SA 4+ will be more what you are hoping for.

 

I, personally, would do a reread of the entire series, checking for foreshadowing and hints as to things that you didn't expect, to see if they are there, before claiming they shouldn't be there, but that's me.

I do this routinely, and it helps me to see things develop. Brandon writes foreshadowing all over the place--but he also writes in an avalanche style. His books start off slow, then build, and build, and build, until they're racing down the plot mountainside and reach "the big moment" near the end, and being able to see these things happening with a fresh eye helps me enjoy them a tremendous amount more.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Alderant

[Walkerxes]

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

I, personally, would do a reread of the entire series, checking for foreshadowing and hints as to things that you didn't expect, to see if they are there, before claiming they shouldn't be there, but that's me.

Totally.. already did my reread of OB. Each one has been read twice.. and I will very likely reread again from the beginning when book 4 is close to release to refresh

[agrabes]

28 minutes ago, IronBars said:

How many books of malazan you read ?

I think I read the first two full books, then quit somewhere in the third.  I wouldn't say that Malazan was too complicated for me to understand, but I would say that by the point where I was in the story I just wasn't enjoying it.  The reason for that is that the books up to where I was in the story did not tell a continuous story about a few characters - it told the story of an entire world and what was happening in that world.  I would get to a point where I was finally warmed up to a certain character and looking forward to reading about his/her story and right at that point they would disappear from the narrative.  It was like someone telling a history of a country and trying to explain why things were a certain way - you can't tell the history of China without fleshing out Ghengis Khan and the Mongols, but you also have to make sure they are only a small part of the overall story and they are completely out of the picture once their part is done.  If you really care a lot about the story of China overall the Mongols are just a nice bit of flavor to an overall great story.  On the other hand, if you're just looking for a good story you'd rather hear about the Mongols or the Romance of the Three Kingdoms and less about the many minor wars, conflicts, and periods of social strife over the thousands of years of Chinese history.

Malazan is the complete Chinese history being thrown out with no introduction.  There are a lot of people it's just not going to appeal to.

I have heard that a lot of the characters who appear to be complete throwaways eventually come back and that some characters eventually become true major characters who drive the story.  I just wasn't willing to continue to put in the time to get to that point.  I get that for fans of the series the selling point is that this whole huge, seemingly unconnected set of stories all comes together at the end, but for me I could not push through to the point where things started coming together because the lead up was not fun for me to read.

[Andy92]

I just wanted to chime in and say Teft's addiction and the way it was portrayed isn't very unreasonable for a couple reasons.

1) In the first two books, we don't really get to see Teft's story through his own eyes. During the events of the first two books, his addiction was there, but repressed. And since we didn't read about his struggle through his own eyes, it's natural to assume other characters wouldn't have known about the severity of his past struggles if he was bottling most of that up inside. 

2) People who suffer from addiction backslide quite often. What happened to Teft in OB seemed like someone who backslid. I don't think he was struggling with addiction enough on screen in the first two books for the members of Bridge Four to become overly worried with him. This changes in OB, and that's a very common trait when it comes to addicts. You can have periods of your life where you're not constantly hooked on a drug, but then a few major life events happen, stress kicks in...I don't think Teft's struggle is unrealistic. 

[RShara she/her]

Also he didn't have a lot of money in WoK.  In WoR, he disappears a few times, and Kaladin asks him about it.  OB we actually get from his perspective what he's been doing.

[Alderant she/her]

12 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I just wanted to chime in and say Teft's addiction and the way it was portrayed isn't very unreasonable for a couple reasons.

1) In the first two books, we don't really get to see Teft's story through his own eyes. During the events of the first two books, his addiction was there, but repressed. And since we didn't read about his struggle through his own eyes, it's natural to assume other characters wouldn't have known about the severity of his past struggles if he was bottling most of that up inside. 

2) People who suffer from addiction backslide quite often. What happened to Teft in OB seemed like someone who backslid. I don't think he was struggling with addiction enough on screen in the first two books for the members of Bridge Four to become overly worried with him. This changes in OB, and that's a very common trait when it comes to addicts. You can have periods of your life where you're not constantly hooked on a drug, but then a few major life events happen, stress kicks in...I don't think Teft's struggle is unrealistic. 

You get a cookie. I think you phrased well the point other people were trying to make.

Spoiler

EDIT:

15 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think I read the first two full books, then quit somewhere in the third.  I wouldn't say that Malazan was too complicated for me to understand, but I would say that by the point where I was in the story I just wasn't enjoying it.  The reason for that is that the books up to where I was in the story did not tell a continuous story about a few characters - it told the story of an entire world and what was happening in that world.  I would get to a point where I was finally warmed up to a certain character and looking forward to reading about his/her story and right at that point they would disappear from the narrative.  It was like someone telling a history of a country and trying to explain why things were a certain way - you can't tell the history of China without fleshing out Ghengis Khan and the Mongols, but you also have to make sure they are only a small part of the overall story and they are completely out of the picture once their part is done.  If you really care a lot about the story of China overall the Mongols are just a nice bit of flavor to an overall great story.  On the other hand, if you're just looking for a good story you'd rather hear about the Mongols or the Romance of the Three Kingdoms and less about the many minor wars, conflicts, and periods of social strife over the thousands of years of Chinese history.

Malazan is the complete Chinese history being thrown out with no introduction.  There are a lot of people it's just not going to appeal to.

I have heard that a lot of the characters who appear to be complete throwaways eventually come back and that some characters eventually become true major characters who drive the story.  I just wasn't willing to continue to put in the time to get to that point.  I get that for fans of the series the selling point is that this whole huge, seemingly unconnected set of stories all comes together at the end, but for me I could not push through to the point where things started coming together because the lead up was not fun for me to read.

That was my general gist of the series as well, though I haven't read more than the first book and a half. The premise was interesting, and even the stuff going on behind the scenes was interesting, but the characters were so dull, opaque, and lacking of motivations that there was nothing actually driving the plot forward for me. I got bored listening to the audiobook, and that was the only way I could even make it through the text.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Alderant

[Walkerxes]

28 minutes ago, Alderant said:

You get a cookie. I think you phrased well the point other people were trying to make.

  Hide contents

EDIT:

That was my general gist of the series as well, though I haven't read more than the first book and a half. The premise was interesting, and even the stuff going on behind the scenes was interesting, but the characters were so dull, opaque, and lacking of motivations that there was nothing actually driving the plot forward for me. I got bored listening to the audiobook, and that was the only way I could even make it through the text.

Pssshhh no no no! It's because none of you understood the series. Only the most discerning of readers can comprehend it! XD