"Pure" Stormlight Archive vs Cosmere

[Guest Edonidd]

I have read quite a bit of Brandon Sanderson, read Elantris when it first came out. Didn't care for it. I bought the full (at the time) Mistborn trilogy and read either 1 1/2 or maybe 2 1/2 of those before I put the book down mid-sentence. I just didn't care. I had been reading Wot since the second book first came out in hardcover and felt like Brandon absolutely butchered those last 3 books (although William Shakespeare could have collaborated with JRR Tolkien and God himself and I'm still not sure I would have liked it not being Jordan, so I don't blame him for that). I read Warbreaker and thought it was actually surprisingly good. So I was extremely surprised how much I liked WoK. It's not that I don't like Sanderson's work, it just doesn't really click for me. Which I can certainly understand since Stephen Erickson is one of my favorite authors and I know he doesn't click for many readers either. I just don't plan on reading anything else by Sanderson outside of Stormlight Archive and eventually that Warbreaker sequel.

After reading Way of Kings, that seemed feasible to me. Now after reading Words of Radiance (in like a 36 hour blitz,that I couldn't put the book down except to sleep and catch up on a few TV shows) and especially after finding this board, it seems significantly less feasible. Like I said elsewhere I don't mind there being a bigger story that I am ignorant of. I don't mind there even being Easter Eggs like a god of mischief that turns out just to be Hoid. What I do mind is major reveals and major parts of the story that aren't just part of a bigger story. They are part of this story. And I don't want to feel like I have to go do homework and read Steelhead or some young adult novel or graphic novel or whatever just to be able to understand THIS story.

Right now, for me, Stormlight Archive is probably the third place Fantasy series pulling away from a bunch of good stuff and approaching Ice and Fire and Malazan Books of the Fallen. Which is saying a lot in my opinion. But with Ice and Fire, I don't have to read the Dunk and Egg stories. If I do, I occasionally see Easter Eggs of the main story, or the other way around. I definitely don't have to read Martins comic books or graphic novels or any of his other stuff. Same with Erikson. Bauchelain and Korbal Broach have made a couple appearances in the main series. And if you had no idea who they were it didn't detract anything from the books of the Fallen. If you did read all of their little side stories and everything though you love seeing those little Easter Eggs in the main series, and reading side stuff maybe gave you a slightly better appreciation of the whole wider world than if you had just read the main series.

I like that. I don't like the way Words of Radiance forced so much Cosmere on us. And I was really wondering if anyone agreed or disagreed with me. Either strongly or just to a point either way. And I was wondering if anyone "in the know" as there seems to be around here, had an idea how it would progress in the rest of the series. Can it stay a more mainstream series, or will it end up only for hard core fans of all things Cosmere?

[Kurkistan]

What part of WoR, specifically, did you find so "cosmere-spoiled", to coin a phrase? The only part I can think of who's impact really depended on cosmere knowledge was the Nightblood reveal.

 

I think you'll find that most of the "cosmere requirements" (to coin another phrase) are our fault as a community here on 17s. Our discussion usually includes cosmere goodies: so I'll agree that in-depth discussion and predictions seem to require cosmere knowledge, but I do not agree that that knowledge is needed for the simple consumption of the books.

 

Brandon has stated that he wants to keep cosmere stuff in the background in Stormlight, and I think he generally does. True, there's a bit more than usual in WoR, but it's a big book with a lot of stuff happening and the cosmere stuff can safely be filed under "unknown but likely scary thing" for the casual reader.

[Seerow]

edit: Really wish the forums would stop eating my posts D:

 

Edit2: Okay now the same post got eaten twice. I'm done.

 

 

tl;dr: I read Warbreaker but remembered nothing about it going in. I didn't recognize Nightblood at all, assumed it was a Voidspren Blade. Don't feel like I lost anything from the story for that assumption, and am sure we'll get an explanation of Nightblood's powers  in the next book, and nobody will be lost for not having read Warbreaker.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Seerow

[Lugonn]

Hoid drinking some metal.

Swordsmaster that talks in weird proverbs.

One sentence from Nightblood.

 

Obviously it's not the actual references themselves, considering how incredibly minor they are. You just have a problem with the very concept of an overarching universe.

[Eejit]

 

 

Q:  When do we get to officially get to know what's going on in the Cosmere?

A:  All of my epic fantasy books are connected with continuing characters. That's a way off, and that's because I don't want people to feel like they have to have read all my previous books to enjoy the series. It should be about the characters. Eventually I will write one that's a mashup, but we're not there yet. I'll be very upfront about it when I do it. For now it's just easter eggs.

 

Word of Brandon.

[Romek]

If you read Elantris and Warbreaker and half of Mistborn, you are pretty much fully cosmere aware anyways.  The only books you would have missed out on are:
The Emperor's Soul (Elantris novella, almost no cosmere information)

Last part of mistborn you didn't read which gets pretty cosmere heavy in the third book, but not really related to SA directly. Alloy of Law is pretty light on advancing any cosmere storylines.

 

Steelheart, Rithmatist and all his YA stuff are not cosmere.

[Kurkistan]

edit: Really wish the forums would stop eating my posts D:

 

Edit2: Okay now the same post got eaten twice. I'm done.

 

Oh, harsh. The forum's been a bit temperamental since the release, probably due to all the traffic. In the future, I'd advise a bit of CTRL-C before hitting "Add Reply" on anything of significant length.

 

EDIT:

 

@Romek

 

To be fair, there's also a fairly heavy amount of interview/Q&A stuff you need to know about to participate fully in mid- to high-level cosmerical discussion.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Xavien]

To me, Zahel/Vasher is an easter egg.  Same with the perfect pitch reference. Szeth wielding Nightblood is very different as Szeth is going to be the main viewpoint of book 3 so it will be interesting to see how that is handled. Until then I am reserving judgement.  Same with Hoid/Wit and the epigraphs.  People not Cosmere aware are going to have tons of questions about this guy which hopefully will be somewhat answered in future books without having to read everything else.

 

As someone else who wasn't a huge fan of Elantris either it's very impressive how much BS has grown as a writer over the last 9 years.  He has a WoK excerpt of a very early draft (from early 2000's I think) on his website and it's amazing how much better the writing and story is now.

[vandalhearts]

The cosmere stuff is hardly noticable especially if you're unaware. I haven't read Warbreaker so I just assumed Zahel and his sayings were from another Rosharian culture. And when I got to the Nightblood, I thought it was a cool talking sword like Liracor from Baldur's Gate 2.

Edited March 9, 2014 by vandalhearts

[Galavantes]

To OP:

I've actually wondered what it would be like for someone to read the Archive without knowledge of the rest of the books. In looking back at it I think most of the references really are easter eggs. EXCEPT the nightblood reveal. That's a pretty big plot point. I tried to imagine reading that scene without any cosmere knowledge, and all I could come up with is someone would think: "Oh cool, a voidblade!" Or something similar.

Except they're totally wrong. So I AM curious how Brandon is going to explain that sword to readers within the context of the Stormlight archive. Are those readers who aren't in the know going to just be left confused as to the origins and abilities of this new powerful sword? I don't know. I'm really curious how he's going to handle that.

We do know that Nightblood was always planned to be in this series, so I'm trusting in that for the moment.

[Gamma Fiend]

Do you think Brandon releasing Warbreaker for free was also part of this "big plan" of his?

Since he had Nightblood and Vasher planned to be in Stormlight Archive, maybe he thought releasing it for free would entice a lot more people to read it? I wasn't around/aware of Sanderson at the time, but from what I've read and seen, the free release of Warbreaker went off pretty well.

If so, then very sneaky, Mr. Sanderson. Very sneaky.

[Walker]

The tricky thing with Nightblood is that he is very different than Roshar magic.  To someone that did not know Warbreaker, they might have thought that Nalan just gave Szeth a spren in sword form.  In explaining Nightblood, the series is going to have to go very Cosmere.

 

With that said, that is not the same as requiring you to read the other books.  It just means that it will have to be addressed within the series.

 

I understand problems with the other books.  Brandon was not particularly good with characterization in the early novels; WOT helped a lot with that (yes, Matt was way off, but I thought the rest of his work was fine -- certainly better than books 9-11).  In fact, if you read the early Szeth chapters on his website (which are horrible), you can see just how far he has come.  

[Robot Aztec]

why arre you downvotin itis MEAN

[Morsk]

Fantasy always has magic artifacts from lost civilizations and far away places, or some member of a different race that's never fully explained. I don't see how it's different from leaving something unexplained and writing a prequel later, except about half the time in the cosmere, the prequel was already written.

 

Probably all we'll have to know about Nightblood is that it's from far away, is overpowered, and makes Szeth even crazier.

[bartbug]

Nightblood won't need explanation. WoB says that it actually is a Shardblade, just really powerful. And since we know that Shardblades talk, it doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

(Also, Brandon will use the "inaccurate viewpoint trick. I mean, what does Szeth know?)

[Raevun]

To give a different viewpoint, I consider myself to be pretty cosmere aware, and the vast majority of the cosmere stuff went right over my head when I was looking for it. The only reference I got by myself was Nightblood. I had Zahel pegged as a worldhopping herald (which I was pretty damnation happy with, until I read the forums), and I completely missed the perfect pitch/drinking metal parts. I find that I get caught up in the story of the book instead of focussing on cosmere stuff (unless it's slapping me in the face). The re-read is where I start to theorize and delve into the cosmere. Ultimately, you can take the book as deep as you want it to go. The cosmere references still function in the current storyline alone by adding sprinkles of mystery, but if you want to follow them through the other series then it's a bonus if you're into it. 

 

I don't think that a description of Nightblood will have to be that cosmere-heavy. Recent WoB said that magical items from one world may function in a different manner on another Shardworld, and we've yet to see how Nightblood actually behaves on Roshar. Chances are it will be similar to a Shardblade, just with a penchant for destroying evil guys.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Raevun

[Aminar]

The Cosmere is one of the only reasons I truly truly like Sanderson's writing.  He's got brilliant worldbuilding, and is a competent(but only really competent) prolific writer.  His best scenes will always be his action scenes, but pitching his work can be difficult without sounding a little obsessed with either magic systems or action scenes.  but Pitching that he's writing a 30+ book series that will span a universe eventually.  That gets people interested.  That's his single best selling point.  He's making a grand and Epic story.  Something that can and will alter the speculative fiction genre.

 

When I say Competent I mean that so far most of his stories haven't been the most gripping and solid the whole way through.  They're fun, and fantastic to debate about, but until Words of Radiance every book he'd written I could have put down part way through and not been overly conflicted.  They didn't make me NEED to know what happened.  Curious yes, Crack Addict Curious, no.

If you can't appreciate what he is doing for the Genre by not just having a shared universe, but building a whole story out of all the disparate pieces, then you're missing the best part of what he's doing.(Until we hit the Modern/Sci-Fi mistborn books.  Because Urban Fantasy not on Earth has so so so much potential, although Mistborn really isn't taking full advantage of the idea because of the humancentric nature of the setting.)

[Youngy]

The tricky thing with Nightblood is that he is very different than Roshar magic.  To someone that did not know Warbreaker, they might have thought that Nalan just gave Szeth a spren in sword form.  In explaining Nightblood, the series is going to have to go very Cosmere.

 

With that said, that is not the same as requiring you to read the other books.  It just means that it will have to be addressed within the series.

 

I understand problems with the other books.  Brandon was not particularly good with characterization in the early novels; WOT helped a lot with that (yes, Matt was way off, but I thought the rest of his work was fine -- certainly better than books 9-11).  In fact, if you read the early Szeth chapters on his website (which are horrible), you can see just how far he has come.  

 

Pretty much the following.

 

Nightblood won't need explanation. WoB says that it actually is a Shardblade, just really powerful. And since we know that Shardblades talk, it doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

(Also, Brandon will use the "inaccurate viewpoint trick. I mean, what does Szeth know?)

 

Nightblood will just seem like a magical blade, which talks (has a cognitive aspect, like Shardblades), and more powerful than said Shardblades in whatever way. 

Really, you could assume Odiumblade and understand completely what happens when you see it.

[Spark]

I've read Brandon's other stuff but I get the problem. On the first read, I was half asleep through half of the book (that's what happens when you can't put it down), so at first I didn't make the Wit-metal-connection in the flashback. I made it later, but I imagine something like this to be frustrating if you simply don't know Brandon's other work.

 

The thing with Brandon and with SA is: He is such a detailed and cunning writer, that you have to pay attention to minor details while reading. Trying to get his clues is half the fun, cosmere or not. So if you read something that in some way seems significant ("why is he poisoning himself?"), I imagine it to be a letdown if that point is never picked up again or explained. The metal is the ONLY part of the book I can think of, though, that creates that problem.

 

As for nightblood - it does feel out of place, I have to say. Of course, that might only be because I know what nighblood is. But a talking sword.. or maybe it's the way it talks.. I can't put my finger on it. Yes, you can explain it within the world of Roshar, name it a powerful shardblade or whatnot, but to me, it doesn't feel completely right anyway. Of course, then again, that's exactly the sort of feeling you should have when encountering an "otherworldly" object.

[Guest Edonidd]

See I disagree with the prevailing mentality pretty heavily. Wit/Hoid was treated EXACTLY the same as "Darkness" who was treated exactly the same as Vasher. Who was treated exactly the same as the God of mischief and laughter, who was treated exactly the same as some broad defacing artwork of the heralds. Wit poisoning himself was treated exactly the same as Renarin fidgeting with his box. Elkohar seeing shadows and people coming after him is treated exactly the same as nightblood, which was treated exactly the same way as Galivars dark gem which was treated exactly the same as The Lopen absorbing Stormlight.

If you can't tell the difference between an Easter Egg and foreshadowing, then there is no difference to you. If there is no difference, then there is no foreshadowing. If there is a whole book with no foreshadowing I'm going to get bored and not read it.

Tl:Dr if there is this many completely unexplained "Easter Eggs" that I can't follow the Stormlight archives without reading the rest of his stuff, I'm not going to read Stormlight aar

[Moogle]

Tl:Dr if there is this many completely unexplained "Easter Eggs" that I can't follow the Stormlight archives without reading the rest of his stuff, I'm not going to read Stormlight

 

Of all the examples you gave, the only two that are Cosmere specific are Wit poisoning himself and Vasher. The rest are still unknown or else "pure" Stormlight.

• People predicted Darkness was Nin/Nalan when the Lift interlude was released months back. No Cosmere books helped us here; it was obvious from the way he liked to follow the law.
• Vasher was an easter egg obviously, and his origins don't matter to the story.
• Wit being the god of mischief/travel to the Horneaters is actually 100% pure Stormlight. The interlude in Way of Kings where the three men are looking for someone who has an "arrow shaped face, with white hair but often dyes it" is hooked up to The Letter talking about Wit avoiding the members of the 17th Shard (Stormlight is the first series to mention the name). This is figured out in book 2 when the response to the letter in TWoK talks about someone using a name after one of their virtues, like a skunk naming itself for its stink - which is obviously Wit. It all falls into place there.
• The 'broad' defacing artwork is again pure Stormlight and was speculated to be Shallash, a Herald, for the last forever. Again, pure Stormlight, no need to read his other books.
• Wit poisoning himself is a nod to Mistborn, so here's that easter egg. Him drinking metals was a very unimportant part of the scene anyways.
• Elhokar seeing shadows seems to reference the same things that Shallan sees, marking him as a possible Radiant (or else Voidbinder?). Pure Stormlight.
• Gavilar's dark gem is something we have no idea on. Cosmere knowledge doesn't help here. This is pure Stormlight.
• The Lopen absorbing Stormlight is again explained in the epigraph's about the Radiants having squires. Pure Stormlight.

Most of Stormlight has nothing to do with Brandon's other books, so I'm a little bit confused with your position. If you don't like books where everything is not instantly explained, I don't think this is really a problem with easter eggs and it's more of a personal preference of yours. Most mysterious things in Stormlight don't involve other books. I expect more of the same with Stormlight books, so if you hated that the last two SA books had some unexplained things, it doesn't sound like you're going to enjoy the books in the future.

 

I'm pretty confident the only 'important' thing where you might have wanted to read another Brandon book is Nightblood, Szeth's new sword. The rest seem pretty unimportant to me.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Galavantes]

See I disagree with the prevailing mentality pretty heavily. Wit/Hoid was treated EXACTLY the same as "Darkness" who was treated exactly the same as Vasher. Who was treated exactly the same as the God of mischief and laughter, who was treated exactly the same as some broad defacing artwork of the heralds. Wit poisoning himself was treated exactly the same as Renarin fidgeting with his box. Elkohar seeing shadows and people coming after him is treated exactly the same as nightblood, which was treated exactly the same way as Galivars dark gem which was treated exactly the same as The Lopen absorbing Stormlight.

If you can't tell the difference between an Easter Egg and foreshadowing, then there is no difference to you. If there is no difference, then there is no foreshadowing. If there is a whole book with no foreshadowing I'm going to get bored and not read it.

Tl:Dr if there is this many completely unexplained "Easter Eggs" that I can't follow the Stormlight archives without reading the rest of his stuff, I'm not going to read Stormlight aar

 

I'd upvote this, except that function seems to be broken. The forums are having a rough time with all the WoR traffic. Who wants to start the "Upgrade 17th Shard Server" donation fund?

[Quazar87]

The tricky thing with Nightblood is that he is very different than Roshar magic.  To someone that did not know Warbreaker, they might have thought that Nalan just gave Szeth a spren in sword form.  In explaining Nightblood, the series is going to have to go very Cosmere.

 

With that said, that is not the same as requiring you to read the other books.  It just means that it will have to be addressed within the series.

 

I understand problems with the other books.  Brandon was not particularly good with characterization in the early novels; WOT helped a lot with that (yes, Matt was way off, but I thought the rest of his work was fine -- certainly better than books 9-11).  In fact, if you read the early Szeth chapters on his website (which are horrible), you can see just how far he has come.  

 

I would actually contend that Nightblood is a great deal like a Shardblade.  Rather than a Cognitive entity in the Physical Realm, he's a Physical entity with a strong Cognitive aspect.  He drains investiture with use, like an Honorblade.

[Galavantes]

I would actually contend that Nightblood is a great deal like a Shardblade.  Rather than a Cognitive entity in the Physical Realm, he's a Physical entity with a strong Cognitive aspect.  He drains investiture with use, like an Honorblade.

 

I almost wish I could read this book without any cosmere knowledge just so I can see how these things really are coming across. Maybe I'll experiment on a friend who's never read Brandon before and force them to read SA first. Would that be mean? 0

[Terra of Roshar]

I almost wish I could read this book without any cosmere knowledge just so I can see how these things really are coming across. Maybe I'll experiment on a friend who's never read Brandon before and force them to read SA first. Would that be mean? 0

No, not mean at all. That's what my uncle's doing. He's only a few chapters into WOR right now, but I'm looking forward to seeing what he thinks of the Nightblood reveal.