[OB] A heralds sanity

[jefftucker0525]

Ok so I'm thinking atleast one herald needs to reclaim their sanity and here's why. It would be badass. 

We've already seen that a herald can swear the oaths of a KR with Nale, but he did it on a lame manner. He swore the oaths of the Skybreakers, an order her leads and already can access the surges of through his Honorblade. And I could be wrong but I don't think there's any compounding of his surges. Sure, he got another blade and, presumably, plate. And he can probably channel Stormlight more efficiently, but overall... lame.  I'm picturing a herald swearing to another order. I would love to see Ash (who I believe is Dustbringer herald but if not replace "Ash" with the proper name) flying around with Windrunner and Dustbringer surges toting 2 Shardblades and in full plate just cleaning house. I mean the heralds have fought in hundreds of battles, they're unmatched warriors, though probably a bit rusty. And they've never had plate. So give em more surges, plate, and another blade and they would be unstoppable war machines. Now I kinda doubt this'll happen, bit I hope it does cuz it would be something to see! Hell even just a full KR with an Honorblade of another order would be awesome. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by jefftucker0525

[Weltall]

Amusing as it would be with the nickname and everything, Ash is the patron of the Lightweavers. You want Chana as she's the one with the same powerset as the Dustbringers.

Anyhow, while Nale proves that it's indeed possible for a Herald to attract a spren and become a Radiant, you'd need for them to do whatever is necessary to attract the appropriate spren in the first place. It's rather more likely for a Herald to attract the spren of their associated order simply because they already exhibit the traits those specific spren look for. But I do expect that at some point Brandon will give us unusual Surge combinations (after he's firmly established most of what the system can do 'normally') and he has mentioned that the Heralds occasionally swapped Honorblades to use different Surges, not unlike Szeth having trained in all of them. But it's probably going to be a long time until we see that and it's probably going to be one of those 'in exceptional circumstances' things.

[jefftucker0525]

 True, I don't really expect to see it, but wouldn't it make a great scene? 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Ash is actually nickname for Shalash. While most fans assume she will eventually become a Dustbringer by attracting a spren, I also suspect she will just have access to the Dustbringer power set. At the moment Shalash just seems to hate all that reminds her of her past as the supreme Lightweaver, patron of artists, Herald of beauty and creativity. Part of her madness seems to be that for all intents and purposes Shalash is dead, and Ash has been born with a desire to destroy things.

[Bort he/him]

I think the way for the Heralds to regain their sanity is by bonding with the Unmade. There's a link to my theory in my signature.

[insert_anagram_here]

On 2/12/2018 at 10:37 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

Ash is actually nickname for Shalash. While most fans assume she will eventually become a Dustbringer by attracting a spren, I also suspect she will just have access to the Dustbringer power set. At the moment Shalash just seems to hate all that reminds her of her past as the supreme Lightweaver, patron of artists, Herald of beauty and creativity. Part of her madness seems to be that for all intents and purposes Shalash is dead, and Ash has been born with a desire to destroy things.

The theory that Ash is Shalash is exactly that, a theory and never proved in the books. She destroys Shalash's statues, but that doesn't prove that she is Shalash herself. She could be trying to take over Shalash's identity, convince society that she is her and by destroying evidence of how Shalash actually looked like. Also, Ash is said to be one of the 10 SA books POV and if she indeed is Shalash, that would mean we are lacking the Dustbringer order from the books but at the same time have two Lightweavers POVs. 

So...

On 2/12/2018 at 8:18 PM, jefftucker0525 said:

I would love to see Ash (who I believe is Dustbringer herald

I also believe in this ^ at the moment.

[digitalbusker he/him]

2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

The theory that Ash is Shalash is exactly that, a theory and never proved in the books. She destroys Shalash's statues, but that doesn't prove that she is Shalash herself. She could be trying to take over Shalash's identity, convince society that she is her and by destroying evidence of how Shalash actually looked like. Also, Ash is said to be one of the 10 SA books POV and if she indeed is Shalash, that would mean we are lacking the Dustbringer order from the books but at the same time have two Lightweavers POVs.

Dude. Just off the top of my head:

* She matches the picture that Hoid drew for Jasnah.

* The depictions of Shalash that she's destroying don't actually look enough like her to make the identity theft angle a sensible motive.

* When she scratches the brazier outside Taln's tent, she thinks "Don't idolize us".

* Neither Taln nor the Stormfather is like "Who dis?"

* On the double Lightweaver PoV thing: Shalash isn't a Lightweaver, she's their mascot. And yeah, based on the Avengers Assemble scene, I expect she's destined to become a Releaser.

I don't know if you're thinking she's another Herald or just some fan, but she's definitely at least a Herald. And it would be pretty crazy for her to not be the one she seems to be, given we have a even a short PoV from her.

[insert_anagram_here]

42 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

* She matches the picture that Hoid drew for Jasnah.

Maybe Jasnah knows and she hasn't told?

Quote

"We must tell the others what we learned from Wit, Ivory.  Eventually, the secret must be known."  (pg. 480)

 

42 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

* The depictions of Shalash that she's destroying don't actually look enough like her to make the identity theft angle a sensible motive.

It might not be the most sensible move, because she is still crazy...

42 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

I don't know if you're thinking she's another Herald

Yeah, I'm thinking Chanarach actually.

42 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

* Neither Taln nor the Stormfather is like "Who dis?"

42 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

* When she scratches the brazier outside Taln's tent, she thinks "Don't idolize us".

If she is a Herald, the above still apply, even if she isn't consciously trying to take Shalash's identity.

42 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

* On the double Lightweaver PoV thing: Shalash isn't a Lightweaver, she's their mascot. And yeah, based on the Avengers Assemble scene, I expect she's destined to become a Releaser.

Not sure how to counter argue that. That makes completely more sense than my coo coo theory so I'm canceling my initial thought. Not.

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by insert_anagram_here
typo

[Willow]

3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

The theory that Ash is Shalash is exactly that, a theory and never proved in the books. She destroys Shalash's statues, but that doesn't prove that she is Shalash herself. She could be trying to take over Shalash's identity, convince society that she is her and by destroying evidence of how Shalash actually looked like. Also, Ash is said to be one of the 10 SA books POV and if she indeed is Shalash, that would mean we are lacking the Dustbringer order from the books but at the same time have two Lightweavers POVs. 

While I don't think this is in the books, I do believe we have several WoBs that Shalash's nickname is Ash. Of course WoBs are not completely canon, and Brandon could be pulling an elaborate trick on us, but that seems unnecessarily complicated.
 

Quote

Argent
Okay, Ash?

Brandon Sanderson
No, that's a nickname.

Argent
What's the real one?

Brandon Sanderson
Shalash (ʃəˈlɑʃ).

While I like your theory, and there are definitely heralds with identity issues (see: Ishar, in his new job as God-King Tezim), I think Ash is just Shalash, and her Dustbringer-y tendencies are something that will be explored in the coming books. I kind of like the idea that she will become a Dustbringer, but while each book focuses on both an order and a main character, the character does not have to be from that specific order (though so far it's worked out that way). I actually think that next book this might change. The flashback character is Eshonai, and probably Venli will be the current-day character, but that doesn't mean we're going to learn more about the Willshapers, especially as the Elsecallers/Skybreakers/Edgedancers/Releasers are so much more prominent in the story so far.. then again I might be wrong.

Also if there is a herald who deserves to regain his sanity, I think it's Taln. His story is such a sad one throughout WoR and OB, especially in part 5 of OB, and he deserves better. I want to see him stand again.

 

[Weltall]

Thing is, Brandon has effectively confirmed that Ash is Shalash. He mentioned back in 2014 that we've already seen Shalash (not 'Ash', Shalash) running around.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Have we seen all of the Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned all of them, and you've seen a number of them, such as Shalash running around.

He also soft-confirmed that 'Ash' is indeed Shalash, although the WoB is a paraphrase. Here's another.

It's simply impossible for Ash to not be a Herald since she and Taln both feel Jezrien's death and every single piece of evidence lines up to her being who the text and her own thoughts paint her as. For example, she reacts to the aforementioned death of Jezrien by saying that her father is dead. You'd have to be a special kind of insane to go that far in your delusion.

The fact that Taln recognizes her as Ash makes it even harder to buy the idea that she's another one of the four pretending to be Shalash. Especially as the only Herald other than Shalash who could possibly disguise her appearance.with Illumination is Pali and she is (at last report) in Kharbranth. And couldn't even surgebind because her Honorblade is currently in Shinovar. So the only way Ash could disguise her appearance (if you really want to assume she's not Shalash against all the evidence) would be... to already have a Nahel Bond and be a Lightweaver or Truthwatcher.

As for Chana, if she's anyone we've seen so far (Brandon has implied we have) Lyss seems to be a rather good candidate.

[insert_anagram_here]

@Weltall The fact that is all paraphrased is exactly my point.

Even 

Quote

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned all of them, and you've seen a number of them, such as Shalash running around.

doesn't say that Ash is Shalash, just that we've seen her in books 'running around'

As for Taln, he is completely disoriented and he knew Chanarach as well, so he might be completely confused of whom he is recognizing.

[RShara she/her]

I think you might be stretching the text to fit your conclusions rather than letting the text dictate the conclusions.  For your theory that Ash isn't Shalash to hold true, a LOT of people in the text have to be wrong, as well as all the implications and inferences.

[Willow]

8 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

The fact that is all paraphrased is exactly my point.

Well, not all of them are. I quoted part of one WoB, but if you want to be more certain, have a look at the complete one: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6737

It discusses both the real names of the heralds, and their nicknames. It has audio, so it's definitely not paraphrased.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Willow

[insert_anagram_here]

Just now, Willow said:

Well, not all of them are. I quoted part of one WoB, but if you want to be more certain, have a look at the complete one: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6737

It has audio, so it's definitely not paraphrased.

As @RShara is stating I'm stretching the text to fit my conclusions, like a lot of people are doing on this forum.

That's the point of a theory isn't it? IT's not proven, but it's not denied as well. If it was a fact it wouldn't be a theory.

Either way, I'm not saying that Ash isn't Shalash's nickname (there is also the curse 'Ash's eyes in book) but the person we know as Ash isn't actually Shalash but Chana taking Shalash's place. But again, it's a theory just like everyone else's theories on this forum. If it turns out right or wrong, we have to actually RAFO.

[RShara she/her]

1 minute ago, insert_anagram_here said:

As @RShara is stating I'm stretching the text to fit my conclusions, like a lot of people are doing on this forum.

That's the point of a theory isn't it? IT's not proven, but it's not denied as well. If it was a fact it wouldn't be a theory.

Either way, I'm not saying that Ash isn't Shalash's nickname (there is also the curse 'Ash's eyes in book) but the person we know as Ash isn't actually Shalash but Chana taking Shalash's place. But again, it's a theory just like everyone else's theories on this forum. If it turns out right or wrong, we have to actually RAFO.

Mmmmm I feel there is a difference between a theory grown naturally out of the text, and a theory that stretches the text in order to make the theory work. 

Also, we already have a kinda "mistaken identity" thing going on with Shallan, I don't think Brandon would re-use that thematic.  Brandon's also never hinted that Ash isn't Shalash, as he has with Taln.

[Willow]

10 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Either way, I'm not saying that Ash isn't Shalash's nickname (there is also the curse 'Ash's eyes in book) but the person we know as Ash isn't actually Shalash but Chana taking Shalash's place. But again, it's a theory just like everyone else's theories on this forum. If it turns out right or wrong, we have to actually RAFO.

Well, yes, true, none of the text definitely excludes it as an option. We've seen a lot of unreliable narrators in the story. But it would be a complex twist. We'll just have to wait to read it in the coming books I guess.

Also, most of the Heralds' insanities (that we've seen) seem to be a corruption of their original intent, and I don't really know how Brave and Obedient (Chana's attributes) twist themselves into impersonating people. I would find it a more logical corruption if it was Shalash who had started pretending to be another herald (Creativity and Honesty being her original attributes).

Edited February 14, 2018 by Willow

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Thing is, when something like identity theft is going on there are clues, little details that make one go -wait a second-. With Ash absolutely everything is pointed at her been Shalash. Shalash is the Herald of beauty, and every single time Ash appears its pointed out she is so beautiful its almost impossible. When Jezrien dies, and Ash goes through one of the most shocking and experiences of her thousands of years she cried out father. And I think there is a Death Rattle saying Daughter of kings, scratching out her own eyes.

I guess Ash could be Chana, but it seems hard.

My main problem with Lyss as Chana is that she owned Szeth and gave him away. Seems...strange to sell him, or to buy him in the first place, as she should have recognized an Honorblade holder in a heartbeat.

[insert_anagram_here]

25 minutes ago, RShara said:

Mmmmm I feel there is a difference between a theory grown naturally out of the text, and a theory that stretches the text in order to make the theory work. 

You seem like a smart person so you are probably right. Still, I retain my right to have my own tinfoil theory just because I'm a little dense and coo coo in the head

[RShara she/her]

lol well the smart is questionable.  Smart-lipped?  That's for sure.  I have a few tinfoil hat theories of my own (That "Nohadon that Dalinar sees is real, but is someone pretending to be Nohadon to influence Dalinar and might turn into the real big bad, for example).  I just keep those to myself most of the time  

[Weltall]

10 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

And I think there is a Death Rattle saying Daughter of kings, scratching out her own eyes.

My main problem with Lyss as Chana is that she owned Szeth and gave him away. Seems...strange to sell him, or to buy him in the first place, as she should have recognized an Honorblade holder in a heartbeat.

Good call on the death rattle, it does say that and it also calls her 'the vandal' and the daughter of winds as well, reinforcing the Jezrien connection. It all lines up very neatly.

On Liss and Szeth (my bad, I goofed on remembering how to spell her name), it's at least possible to reconcile it with the idea that she's Chana if you assume that Szeth kept his possession of the blade a secret. We know he very much wants his masters to not know about it so there's nothing unusual with that idea. We do have the conversation between Nale and Kalak indicating that they knew he had an Honorblade but it's quite possible that Nale already was aware of that (he's been watching Szeth for a long time) as opposed to their having some method of sensing that he was carrying one. So if Liss is Chana, she wouldn't necessarily have the means to know Szeth was carrying Jezrien's blade unless the latter revealed it in some way.

[insert_anagram_here]

18 minutes ago, RShara said:

I just keep those to myself most of the time

I do too mostly, otherwise I'd be flooding the forums with theory threads. It's just that I saw @jefftucker0525 voicing one of them and wanted to agree with him so he doesn't feel cornered and attacked. 

37 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

And I think there is a Death Rattle saying Daughter of kings, scratching out her own eyes.

Again, as I said in my previous post I'm not saying that Ash isn't Shalash's nickname (there is also the curse 'Ash's eyes in book) but the person we know as Ash isn't actually Shalash but Chanarach taking Shalash's identity. It would stand to reason that if she is impersonating she would be doing things that Shalash would normally do.

I know it's far fetched, but it's not completely disapproved at this point, is it? We have to see Ash doing something she couldn't be doing unless she is Shalash, even by impersonating her, and Chanarach being identified as another person in the book.

Edited February 14, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Weltall]

It's possible in the same sense that it's possible that Hoid and Mraize are the same person, based on the argument that the latter somewhat reminded Shallan of the former at first and that two haven't been seen simultaneously in separate locations so we can't absolutely declare that Hoid isn't using some secret magic system to whisk himself from spot to spot to make the timelines work. However, it would require a huge amount of unsupported assumptions and would require us to place undue weight on one single line of text while ignoring the mountains of evidence that they're different people.

[insert_anagram_here]

I don't know if Hoid and Mraize are the same person, but I kinda think they aren't. I don't see how this is relevant

Why are you so set to dismiss this that you go so far as to come up with something completely ridiculous and compare it. Cannot the same thing be said for a lot of theories going on on the forums? What kind of argument is this dude?

[jefftucker0525]

Ok so I was just trying to say that I genuinely wasn't sure if Ash was the herald of the Dustbringers or not lol. My theory crafting doesn't go anywhere near as deep as most people on here, I'm kinda just along for the ride, with minimal speculation of my own. Ash kind of reminds me of dust so it leapt to mind right away, and i thought we already knew atleast the names and Orders of every herald. That being said, a lot of interesting ideas going on here

[Rainier]

7 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

* On the double Lightweaver PoV thing: Shalash isn't a Lightweaver, she's their mascot. And yeah, based on the Avengers Assemble scene, I expect she's destined to become a Releaser.

Yup, I'm right there with you. Lightweavers are what the Radiants who mimicked Shalash called themselves. Shalash was not a Lightweaver, and none of the Heralds were Knights Radiant and thus don't merit the descriptor (Nale excluded, of course). So no, Shalash is not a Lightweaver, but I think she's going to become a Releaser, as you said. Similarly, Taln is not a Stoneward (Stonewarden?), but I expect him to become one.

I would completely shocked if Ash is in fact Chana, as it doesn't really make any sense. Why would Chana care about Shalash so much? Also, didn't we specifically get confirmation that Ash's father died, you know, Jezrien, Herald, King of Kings? Jezrien was Shalash's father, not Chana's.

Of all the things to dispute, this one surprised me.