theory [OB] There is a world-hopper way and supply station at the Origin

[Isilel]

My first topic! Hopefully, I did everything right, if not, feel free to correct me. Here goes:

Throughout SA, there are several hints that while Roshar is the only continent on the planet, there are islands at the Origin. IIRC there is also a WoB confirming this. World-hoppers use Perpendicularities to enter and exit physical worlds and Azure apparently used Cultivation's at the Horneater Peaks, but could it really accomodate all the off-world traffic? According to Rock, at least, only the Horneaters are allowed to enter the shardpool - which would make departures difficult, wouldn't it? Now, it is possible that it can be accessed from several Peaks, not just that of Rock's tribe, and that others are more relaxed about allowing outsiders in, but wouldn't most world-hoppers, unlike unkillable Hoid, also need supplies and guides to get up and down the notoriously harsh mountains that surround the peaks? Shouldn't these "piligrimages" there be a thing? Not widely-known, of course, but still a small, but lucrative side-business for the Horneaters? Yet, we have seen no sign of it in Rock's dialogue or PoVs.

Another clue is the relative abundance and cheapness of canned food in Shadesmar - and that it seems to be mostly fish. Now, there is another WoB that it takes weeks or months to get from  world to world through the Cognitive, at least if they are in different systems. This would make import of canned food from some other world highly impractical and expensive - i.e. the opposite of what we have seen in part IV of OB. That, in turn, means that the food is being imported in bulk from somewhere on Roshar - and that they have a cannery there - which is the technology that the rest of the world doesn't have. I.e. that there is a location on Roshar that is servicing the world-hoppers and humans living in Shadesmar.  And there must be enough of them to keep Riino in food and drink in exchange for his prophecies.

Now, we were told that Honor's Perpendicularity is unpredictable and dangerous to use - I speculate that last is because it normally deposits a traveller in the eye of a highstorm. But that would mean that the farther west one goes, the less risky using it becomes. Whether the highstorm is almost completely exhausted when it reaches the Origin and gets renewed there or there is some other trick to make transfer there safe - even something as simple as a sturdy shelter in a spot that the Perpendicularity reliably crosses, I am pretty certain that that's where most of the transfers between realms happen, conveniently hidden from the world at large. The worldhoppers can then be discreetly transported to the continent by ship and vice-versa. The small population of the islands - or, maybe, just one island? - is in the know and caters to the travellers, supplying them with what they need to blend in on Roshar or to survive  off-world, for a price.

Puuli's Interlude hints at these people coming more overtly and in numbers in a near future - maybe they'll have to quickly escape Shadesmar, due to the onslaught of the voidspren and the Fused?

[digitalbusker he/him]

It's an interesting idea, and I do think there's something going on with the Origin.

I see a couple issues. I'm not sure any one of them is fatal, but:

We see one can opened, and it happens to contain fish. That's not enough to say "most" of the canned food available in Roshar's Shadesmar is fish. 

Azure certainly would have mentioned this if she knew about it, which means the only worldhopper in a position to foreshadow this just happened to come to Roshar in a nonstandard way.

You're too quick to dismiss the possibility that the canned food is being imported from somewhere else. Preserving food for weeks or months of transit and then storage is literally what canning is for.

[Isilel]

20 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

Azure certainly would have mentioned this if she knew about it, which means the only worldhopper in a position to foreshadow this just happened to come to Roshar in a nonstandard way.

 Well, it can't be the standard way, can it, if Rock considered Hoid's appearance from the shardpool to be such a unique event?  Again, it is possible that one of the other Peaks  serves as the normal transfer point, and it is just a trade secret of that tribe, but I doubt that it could account for all the world-hoppers coming and going without the other tribes noticing - because they also have to get up and down the notoriously harsh mountains, and particularly not for the flow of goods between the physical and Shadesmar. 

We know that at least 4 worldhoppers  arrived at Roshar a year or so ago - the Purelake 17-sharder trio and Azure, but given the hinted numbers of humans living in Shadesmar around Roshar - whether permanently or transiently, I'd expect at least a couple of dozens of arrivals and departures yearly. Hoid certainly had no problem finding messengers for his letters to the Shards from the epigraphs.

Anyway, for arrivals, I think that it is mostly the matter of how far west they are willing to cross over into the physical, because the weaker the highstorm, the safer it is to use that Perpendicularity, and whether they are prepared to hit the ground running. If they have some bulky trade-goods or don't know the local language/don't have magical ways to circumvent this lack, for instance, it is probably a bad idea to appear in the middle of nowhere.

As to Azure not mentioning the Origin specifically, well, it is on the other side of the world - and Our Heroes already thought  that the Horneater Peaks were too far out of the way.

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You're too quick to dismiss the possibility that the canned food is being imported from somewhere else. Preserving food for weeks or months of transit and then storage is literally what canning is for.

True, but how much can a person carry? After all, the travellers through interstellar Cognitive would need to have enough food and likely also water, as I don't see the bead trick working there, to sustain them for weeks/months it would take to cross it. Most would be lucky to be able to bring enough to reach their goal and return. Stronger people might be able to squeeze a bit extra canned food to sell at the destination, but then it would be extremely expensive. However, it isn't, as an occasional client coming to consult Riino's oracle provides enough business to keep him in food and drink. Later, in Celebrant, somebody noted that food was relatively cheap. That doesn't jive with it being imported from another world and transported for weeks/months on the backs of the worldhoppers from there. IMHO, it makes most sense if it is being brought from the physical realm of the local world - which, in turn, would require a world-hopper outpost with a cannery.

Now, if only we had been given some hints as to why both physical Roshar and it's Shadesmar are so very attractive to the worldhoppers? I mean, we know why Vasher came, while Nazh and presumably Khriss are about,  we got some idea what the Ghostbloods are about in OB - and, of course, why the 17th sharders are around. But why the rest of them? Why Riino? Why all those off-worlders serving as soldiers and ardents? What is there for Roshar to export that is valuable elsewhere? The gems as jewelry?

Edited February 6, 2018 by Isilel

[Ciridae]

15 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Why all those off-worlders serving as soldiers and ardents? What is there for Roshar to export that is valuable elsewhere?

Ease of access to investiture for people like Riino and Vasher I imagine. For Felt and the ardent who mentioned soil, I'm not sure, but we know Felt has tried to visit the Nightwatcher. But it is puzzling why after they would take the time and effort to stay with a highlord's army for years and years, during a relatively uneventful time. Maybe they just like chouta. 

 

It's an interesting question though. We know (Mistborn) 

Spoiler

That the Pits of Hathsin had a way station with boats in the CR to help worldhoppers cross over. 

On Roshar there shouldn't be a reason why they can't have the same for the PR. I like it. 

About the canned food...there's a whole population living in a massive region that can't grow their own food and are almost completely dependent on imports or their own brought rations. I'm sure some cosmere businessman has already established an empire built on canned fish. Doesn't have to be on Roshar, I'm sure they'd find a way to transport large amounts through the CR, either way, but it's not impossible. 

Also, if there is a community living on islands at the origin, we might get to see it as soon as we get Wandersail. 

(Worldhopping, Larkin-riding Rysn confirmed. Maybe she'll cut herself a slice off the lucrative CR-food delivery business and starts spreading chouta through the cosmere. Sixth of the Dusk has tried Herdazian food after all. Food for thought.)

[Isilel]

22 hours ago, Ciridae said:

Ease of access to investiture for people like Riino and Vasher I imagine.

I am not sure why Riino would need investiture and why he'd chose to live in Shadesmar, depending on unpredictable and irregular showing up of customers to get it, if he did have to regularly consume investiture. I don't believe that Vasher could have survived in his place. Frankly, Elantris spoilers:

Spoiler

I don't understand why he doesn't just go home and be an Elantrian. Living as a hermit lighthouse keeeper in Shademar, surviving on canned food, just doesn't sound like much fun. Surely, he must know that Elantris had been repared. Is he, perhaps, saving up resources for his return?

 

22 hours ago, Ciridae said:

For Felt and the ardent who mentioned soil, I'm not sure, but we know Felt has tried to visit the Nightwatcher. But it is puzzling why after they would take the time and effort to stay with a highlord's army for years and years, during a relatively uneventful time.

 Or a bit too eventful, in Felt's case, given all the losses that Dalinar's army had suffered and the fact that being a scout pole-vaulting over the chasms on the Shattered Plains, as he was in WoR was hardly the safest occupation anyway. Oh, and there is also Kaladin's old sergeant Tukks, who was notably short and, according to Kal there was something subtly odd/wrong with his appearance. Supposedly killed in some meaningless battle between minor Alethi trying to grab each other's lands.

To be continued.

 

[Ciridae]

9 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I am not sure why Riino would need investiture and why he'd chose to live in Shadesmar, depending on unpredictable and irregular showing up of customers to get it, if he did have to regularly consume investiture.

Ah sorry, I was pretty vague there. I don't think he's an Elantrian necessarily, more like an entrepreneur with a one-trick device made from Selish tech that needs investiture to function. 

Spoiler

He could just as well be a refugee Elantrian. But he'd have to be thousands of years old if he's from before the broken Shaod. 

But yeah, it's definitely a little weird, I didn't get the impression that Riino's lighthouse gets a whole lot of traffic, but it must be enough to survive. Do spren visit him? What would other worldhoppers be doing around Kholinar in Shadesmar? 

20 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Or a bit too eventful, in Felt's case

Heh yeah, good point. I'd love to know more about what's going on with Felt. Glad he showed up in OB. 

Spoiler

Demoux, who is from the same time and place as Felt is assosciated with the 17th Shard, but they don't like to meddle, and Felt and the others give me the impression that they purposefully got close to someone in power and are waiting for something. 

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

27 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I don't think he's an Elantrian necessarily,

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson
I revised part four heavily, moving the scene where Kaladin runs into our "so very beautiful" friend from Elantris (and the subsequent dip into the Spiritual Realm) from happening in the market to happening in the Lighthouse. Originally, the Lighthouse was run by Cryptics. (Which was a lot of fun.) However, I needed stronger establishment of Kaladin's motivations earlier in Part Four, which was going kind of off-the-rails a little.
Source. Also this:

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Oversleep42 Truthwatcher 12 points 2 months ago 

One wall contained a picture of people kneeling before a bright white mirror. Another was a cityscape at dusk, with a group of low houses clustered before an enormous wall that had light glowing beyond it.

These seem like direct references to the city of Elantris.
His name is Riino, which is definitely Aonic. He curses by "Merciful Domi".
And now Brandon comes and says

"so very beautiful" friend from Elantris

Let's see the quote from Elantris:

The man was there, still mumbling to himself as many of the Hoed did even at night. He was small and wrinkled, his skin folded in so many places he appeared a thousand years old. His voice whispered a quiet mantra. “Beautiful,” he rasped. “Once so very beautiful…”

Edited February 6, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[Ciridae]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

  Hide contents

Source. 

Wow yeah, that's as conclusive as it gets. Awesome, that completely went over my head when I read that chapter, thanks. 

Spoiler

Nice to know he didn't get ripped apart by the Dor.

Edit: I found this just under the WoB you provided:

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Spoiler

 

Oversleep

What is Scadrial's primary intergalactic export?

Ravi

Okay so, this is what I got from Brandon.

Prior to Kelsier exploding the Pits, Scadrial's canned goods were one of the main things exported to the intergalactic market from the planet.

NB: This is something that Brandon can change at any time if the story calls for it.

(Source)

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Ciridae

[digitalbusker he/him]

Oh, hey: "somebody says intergalactic when they mean interstellar"... Bingo! I've got bingo!

[galendo]

Not saying it's right or wrong, but if you're trying to get to Roshar proper, it seems way easier to go via the Horneater peaks than through the Origin.  Even if there is a perpendicularity there, you still need to get from there to the main continent.  And most ships on Roshar won't sail away from land for fear of highstorms, so you'd need to hire a dedicated crew and a seaworthy ship.  Sure, some people could be using off-world building and navigation techniques to run a clandestine transport industry, but it seems way more likely that the worldhoppers we see have come via the Peaks or somewhere else on the continent.

After all, it's not like outsiders are particularly unwelcome at the Peaks.  Rock invites the whole bridge crew to come visit several times.

9 hours ago, Ciridae said:

But yeah, it's definitely a little weird, I didn't get the impression that Riino's lighthouse gets a whole lot of traffic, but it must be enough to survive. Do spren visit him? What would other worldhoppers be doing around Kholinar in Shadesmar? 

Well, he's running a lighthouse.  Maybe he gets paid by government and/or shipping interests to do so?  Or maybe he's running a trading post and the light's a way to attract visitors to his island?  The ship of spren certainly stopped there.  His place did kind of seem filled with a bunch of bric-a-brac; maybe it was for trade.  I don't know if the spren sail ships of cargo around (though there's certainly a lot of spren sailing large ships around for some reason), but his lighthouse was obviously a port of call of some sort.

[Isilel]

Concerning Mistborn: Secret History spoiler - I don't think that this info was in the first trilogy itself, but I may, of course, be wrong, there is something I still don't understand, even though it is now canon:
 

Spoiler

 

Namely, how could Pits of Hatshin have been a transport hub for the transfer into the Cognitive? Weren't all entrances and exits watched with paranoid vigilance by Lord Ruler's guards, to prevent escapes and preclude smuggling out of atium? And didn't the pits themselves consist of crevices so narrow that the convicts could barely scrape through? How could it have been possible for the worldhoppers to get in and out, and even bring their good/supplies along?

 

 

On 5.2.2018 at 7:46 PM, Ciridae said:

I'm sure some cosmere businessman has already established an empire built on canned fish. Doesn't have to be on Roshar, I'm sure they'd find a way to transport large amounts through the CR, either way, but it's not impossible. 

They'd need to build a railroad through interstellar Cognitive in order to ship enough from another world! And if they had built it, then there would have been a lot more worldhoppers around.

On 5.2.2018 at 7:46 PM, Ciridae said:

Also, if there is a community living on islands at the origin, we might get to see it as soon as we get Wandersail. 

(Worldhopping, Larkin-riding Rysn confirmed. Maybe she'll cut herself a slice off the lucrative CR-food delivery business and starts spreading chouta through the cosmere.

It would be absolutely great! Except, now with both the highstorms _and_ the Everstorm to contend with, I am not sure that a Rosharan-built ship could reach the Origin. Honestly, there are so many characters in SA that I really wish would become worldhoppers in the end, and Rysn is certainly one of them, though Jasnah and Lift are on the top of my wishlist.

 

16 hours ago, galendo said:

Not saying it's right or wrong, but if you're trying to get to Roshar proper, it seems way easier to go via the Horneater peaks than through the Origin.

It may look easier at the first glance, but the Horneaters would need to be in on it, for it to be easier in practice. And they don't seem to be.

16 hours ago, galendo said:

  Sure, some people could be using off-world building and navigation techniques to run a clandestine transport industry, but it seems way more likely that the worldhoppers we see have come via the Peaks or somewhere else on the continent.

That's exactly what I think was happening - people from the Origin and ex-pat world-hoppers sailing ships discreetly using off-world technology, ferrying world-hoppers  and their trade-goods and bringing back the same and whatever the islands need from the continent . And also, that they sailed to and from western ports, as highstorms become so much weaker in the west, until they get renewed at the Origin, so that it is feasible to weather them on the open sea.

Puuli's Interlude does suggest that  people from the Origin will come to the easternmost port for the first time - probably because the Everstorm made the western route impossible, as it blows from west to east and collides with the highstorm somewhere. I am not sure how they'll deal with the massive destructive power of the highstorms rejuvenated at the Origin when sailing in the eastern direction. Maybe they'll come during the Weeping?

As to the option of "somewhere else on the continent", I have already said that arriving in the west via highstorm perpendicularity is entirely doable, if one is prepared to jump in the deep end and doesn't have too much baggage. But leaving would be quite tricky, as one would need to locate the perpendicularity and reach it before it moves on. I don't think that the vast majority of world-hoppers could do it, even travelling extremely light.

16 hours ago, galendo said:

Well, he's running a lighthouse.  Maybe he gets paid by government and/or shipping interests to do so? 

Possible. It would make Riino's existence a little less precarious, at least. I also wonder why he wasn't afraid of dangerous spren and had no defenses and wide open windows that anything could easily slip through.

16 hours ago, galendo said:

  I don't know if the spren sail ships of cargo around (though there's certainly a lot of spren sailing large ships around for some reason), but his lighthouse was obviously a port of call of some sort.

There was certainly cargo on the spren ships - we don't know what  was in the boxes on Ico's, but the honorspren had all those bales of cloth that Azure told them to cut into man-like forms in preparation for the fight with the Fused. And it would have to have been a real physical cloth for her to be able to Awaken it, right? It shouldn't work with the manifested one, IMHO.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Secret History spoiler - I don't think that this info was in the first trilogy itself, but I may, of course, be wrong, there is something I still don't understand, even though it is now canon:

  Hide contents

Namely, how could Pits of Hatshin have been a transport hub for the transfer into the Cognitive?
1. Weren't all entrances and exits watched with paranoid vigilance by Lord Ruler's guards, to prevent escapes and preclude smuggling out of atium?
2. And didn't the pits themselves consist of crevices so narrow that the convicts could barely scrape through?
3. How could it have been possible for the worldhoppers to get in and out, and even bring their good/supplies along?

Spoiler

1. Given that House Venture was running the mining operations, I'd imagine it was their guards, rather than members of the city guard. Members of House Venture were in on it, so some of the guards being in-the-know isn't out of the question. Also see 3.
2. The Pits had an Atium Mining Operation going on in them. Some tunnels would be cleared out/expanded out of necessity, and that provides means & opportunity. Have a long narrow stretch open up to a wider tunnel, and you'll be fine.
3. Who says the Worldhoppers left the pits? Bribed/in-the-know guards could let an "inspection team" down every now and then. Go down with a bag of goods, make your trades, come back up with a bag of goods, and gen-pop is none the wiser. This way, the only people who could stumble on your operation are the prisoners, who are already dead to the world, which is convenient for tying up loose ends.