[OB][MB] Magics of Shards and their interactions

[QuasarInTheMist]

Something I've been wondering about since WoK has been about how many magic systems are present on Roshar.  In the Mistborn series, we saw three distinct magic systems at play, one of Presersvation (Allomancy), one of Ruin (Hemalurgy), and one of their interaction or balance (Feruchemy).  

So if Roshar has the influence of three Shards, would this mean one magic system for each independent Shard, one for the three pairwise combinations, and one for all three combined?  That would mean a total of seven.  I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on this and how many different magic systems we've actually seen so far.  We've seen Surgebinding and Voidbringing and have had references to the Old Magic without much detail.  In Mistborn we saw users of Hemalurgy (Inquisitors, Koloss, Kandra) long before the magic itself was presented to us.  Could there be things we've seen in Stormlight that suggest entire magic systems we haven't yet seen?  The only things that immediately comes to mind for me are the Singers and the Aimians.  

A related thing I noticed with some curiosity is that among the orders of Knights Radiant we see both honorspren and cultivationspren.  I've been keeping an eye out for disucssion of this on the board but haven't seen anything.  To me this may suggest Surgebinding may be a magic that combines the influence of Honor and Cultivation.  

Anyway, I'd love to hear some thoughts on these topics and I'm sorry if I'm asking about things that people have already discussed thoroughly.  

[Calderis]

Brandon has said that there are either 3, or 30 depending on how you count them. I can't find that particular WoB, but have this one that references it. 

Quote

rags

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 Surgebindings and 10 Voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Brandon Sanderson

Fabrials are part of it.

source

I don't believe that you'll see the direct interaction based magics, like with Feruchemy, because Ruin and Preservation created a blank slate on Scadrial. They started from scratch. 

I think that on Roshar, the Shards came to a world with an existing magic system, created by Adonalsium and seen in the Spren bonds of the natural fauna and the singers, and were able to expand upon them, but not create something completely new like happened on Scadrial.

I think you'll see a system for each Shard, covering the 3 interpretation, with a subdivision for each surge (or the ten poles tones for fabrials) for the 30 interpretation. 

[RShara]

42 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Brandon has said that there are either 3, or 30 depending on how you count them. I can't find that particular WoB, but have this one that references it. 

I don't believe that you'll see the direct interaction based magics, like with Feruchemy, because Ruin and Preservation created a blank slate on Scadrial. They started from scratch. 

I think that on Roshar, the Shards came to a world with an existing magic system, created by Adonalsium and seen in the Spren bonds of the natural fauna and the singers, and were able to expand upon them, but not create something completely new like happened on Scadrial.

I think you'll see a system for each Shard, covering the 3 interpretation, with a subdivision for each surge (or the ten poles tones for fabrials) for the 30 interpretation. 

 

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Rhandric

How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or...it's really how...

Rhandric

If you assume the surges are considered one.

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Questioner 2

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they just get the breath.

Rhandric

That's one thing that stood out to me in your magic systems, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some form of snapping to occur, and that's unique...

Brandon Sanderson

Not all of them because, um, let's see...

Questioner 3

BioChroma doesn't.

Brandon Sanderson

BioChroma does not requires snapping.

Rhandric

Actually wait, is there an active magic system on Threnody?

Brandon Sanderson

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call magic. Do spirits coming back to life count as magic? It's science to them, but it's goofy science.

source

 

[QuasarInTheMist]

Thanks for sharing Brandon's comments on the topic!  It seems I was a bit off base.  

But what then do you make of cultivationspren being a part of Surgebinding, which appears to be Honor's magic?  That's an interesting connection I think.  

[StormingTexan]

16 minutes ago, QuasarInTheMist said:

Thanks for sharing Brandon's comments on the topic!  It seems I was a bit off base.  

But what then do you make of cultivationspren being a part of Surgebinding, which appears to be Honor's magic?  That's an interesting connection I think.  

Surgebinding is both of Honor and Cultivation. Here are some more WoB. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117-boskone-54/#e1640

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6276

 

[Calderis]

49 minutes ago, QuasarInTheMist said:

Thanks for sharing Brandon's comments on the topic!  It seems I was a bit off base.  

But what then do you make of cultivationspren being a part of Surgebinding, which appears to be Honor's magic?  That's an interesting connection I think.  

Obviously this is opinion, but I don't believe that the magic systems are truly of the Shards themselves on Roshar, but more the Spren. Surgebinding could be argued to be Honor's because it originated with he Honorblades, but the mechanics of the Nahel bond is clearly a mixture of Honor and Cultivation because it's made from spren that are a mixture. The individual oaths are their Honor portion, creating a set code of conduct to be followed. The progression through the Oaths is the Cultivation portion, causing the individual to be cultivated into an ideal partner for the Spren. I don't think this is the only way to access surgebinding though. The Fused appear to be hacking the system to run surgebinding on Voidlight. More on this in a bit. 

I think fabrials are mainly Cultivation derived, as it requires a cultivation of the mind in the form of knowledge of the technology and harnessing an spren in a similar manner to harness an animal for work. 

Voidbinding is obviously more Odium derived, but again, I think this is more to do with the Spren involved than it is Odium himself. The voidbinding chart at the end of tWoK shows a change in the radial symmetry of the surge glyphs which, to me at least, implies a fundamental change in the way the surge manifests. At this point I think that Renarin is the only example of voidbinding that we've seen, as he appears to be completely unable to access the surge of Illumination that we know through Shallan, and instead has his visions. I believe they are voidbindings version of Illumination. 

The Fused appear to be using surges that are fundamentally the same as Radiants. Hence why I think they're using a surgebinding hack, rather than voidbinding. 

All opinions, but it's my head canon until we have evidence to contradict it. 

[recneps]

I would guess that the Fused are using Voidbinding simply because of the difference in Fuel, Ease of Use, and Power. The Fused are easily and intuitively able to fly. This can be attributed to experience: But why then is Kaladin able to outrun the Fused? There's some fundamental difference.

Honour and Cultivation are very much a pair: They were romantically engaged, and their powers were in no way contradictory. I think they'd be entirely fine with cooperating in all ways on their magic systems.

[Calderis]

@recneps and yet we see a Fused that uses illumination in the exact way we've seen Shallan do it.

Renarin on the other hand appears to be completely incapable of using illumination as we've been exposed to it through Shallan's surgebinding. He seems to have a different surge completely, though it's still "illumination."  

This is why I think that the Fused are using a hacked version of surgebinding. There are minor side effects from however its achieved, such as the acceleration difference in the use of gravitation. But with gravitation, abrasion, and illumination, they all appear to be fundamentally the same surge. 

[recneps]

I would attribute the similarity to Odium and Development - my name for HonourXXCultivation - both copying the same fundamental Surges. And we're not seeing the direct action of the Fused's surges, only the results: It seems likely that the Honourblades and the Dawnspren would mimic each other -- Each would have a counterpart with the other.

Renarin has Illumnation differently than Shallan. This is true - except he still draws in Stormlight. Why would Stormlight be used for Voidbinding instead of Voidlight? And we have precedence for difference between usage of various Surges within the Knights Radiant. As The Stormfather told Dalinar, his Surge of Tension would be applied very differently as a Bondsmith than it would be applied for a Stoneward.

[Calderis]

There are only 9 types of Fused, per Moash's PoV, and 10 surges on the voidbinding chart. 

And we have pretty good evidence that Renarin is voidbinding. 

Edit: additional WoB on Renarin Voidbinding. 

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Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. 

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

source

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Calderis

[Song]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

@recneps

Renarin on the other hand appears to be completely incapable of using illumination as we've been exposed to it through Shallan's surgebinding. He seems to have a different surge completely, though it's still illumination

He hasn't been able to make illusions, but he has made light (just like Ym tried to, who we know had an uncorrupted spren), and the vision he gave to Adolin of himself 'perfected' seems pretty similar to Shallan gift of drawing people as the best version of themselves.

Despite 'the pages' I don't think it is a cut and dried thing that Renarin doesn't have the knight surgeof illumination. The voidy surge might be an added extra.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Song said:

and the vision he gave to Adolin of himself 'perfected' seems pretty similar to Shallan gift of drawing people as the best version of themselves.

That was not an illusion. That was Adolin seeing his spiritual aspect for a split second. The only thing that I can think of there is that from inexperience, Renarin poured in way more Stormlight than necessary for that healing. 

It fits with the way in which we know Cosmere healing works. Healing flows outward from the Spiritual aspect of a person, an idealized version of yourself, through the Cognitive, where it can be filtered by perception as with Kaladin's scars, and into the physical body. 

As to him making light... I don't know what that was in order to have the effect that it did on a Thunderclast. I don't think you could just shine a flashlight in their face for that effect though. And that effectively what Shallan would be doing if she "made light" with the surge we know.