[OB] The WoR Retcon Vs. Kal's Last Fight in OB

[Jimpy he/him]

I'd like to preface this by saying that I always was and still am a huge fan of Sanderson's work and I have a lot of respect for him as a writer; This post is partly to give criticism and partly to have others convince me that this was a good decision.

So I'm sorta writing this from memory because I don't have a copy of Oathbringer at hand, I would appreciate any corrections as I'm no Archivist.

As I'm sure most of us know (I actually just found out earlier this morning), Kaladin's final fight with Szeth has been altered from the original to state that Kal hesitated and Szeth died because of the storm instead of being stabbed through the neck.

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It was important to me that Kaladin refuse to kill Szeth at the end. Kaladin is about protection, not vengeance, and once he realized that Szeth really just wanted to be killed, I wanted Kaladin to hesitate.

This is a good point, and we'd already seen Kaladin take some huge steps towards holding this ideal in his heart above all else...

But at the end of Oathbringer, when Kal is tasked with protecting Dalinar from Amaram, it feels like Kaladin is using he excuse of protection to take his vengeance. It just feels wrong to me, and against Kal's oaths. He should not be glad to have the opportunity to square off with a demon from his past, that is more of an act of vengeance.

In the end, Kaladin would have killed Amaram if given the chance, and he feels no remorse when Rock does the killing blow. Given the far more personal nature of this conflict, this honestly seems like an even worse act of vengeance than what happened to Szeth originally.

 

So how is this any different?

Again I'm writing this all from memory and I would appreciate clarification.

[Leyrann]

Well, for one Amaram was in the process of fusing with an Unmade...

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

18 minutes ago, Jimpy said:

In the end, Kaladin would have killed Amaram if given the chance, and he feels no remorse when Rock does the killing blow. Given the far more personal nature of this conflict, this honestly seems like an even worse act of vengeance than what happened to Szeth originally.

 

So how is this any different?

I wasn't a big fan of the change at the end of WoR, but Brandon is a writer who is very nuanced in his application of character motivation and intent. The fact that he felt strongly enough about this small distinction to change a major scene in the book after it was already in print shows that this is fundamental to Kaladin's identity.

The part that he was specifically addressing with the revision was that at the point that Szeth realizes that he's not truthless and never had been, he gives up on the assassination of Dalinar and actively seeks death. Kaladin realizes this and at an instinctive level knows that killing Szeth would at this point simply be murder, and not killing in order to protect. Amaram on the other hand was actively trying to kill Dalinar during their whole fight. So I think the WoR rewrite was an attempt at moral disambiguation.

[Jimpy he/him]

21 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Well, for one Amaram was in the process of fusing with an Unmade...

Was this known before Kaladin went to confront him? I don't think it was, and it doesn't change Kaladin's attitude. He was very much pleased at the chance to fight Amaram, and that was a vengeful attitude.

10 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Kaladin realizes this and at an instinctive level knows that killing Szeth would at this point simply be murder, and not killing in order to protect. Amaram on the other hand was actively trying to kill Dalinar during their whole fight. So I think the WoR rewrite was an attempt at moral disambiguation.

That is a fantastic point, but again I'm not completely convinced. Killing Szeth even though he gave up would be an act of murder because the intention was no longer to protect Dalinar. When fighting Amaram though, his intentions weren't nearly as single minded, the motive for his fight was protecting Dalinar, but beneath that was a desire to kill Meridas.

So I guess now my argument is that Kaladin was definitely acting to protect Dalinar, but his intentions weren't completely pure. We've seen that intent is very important in this world, one scene in WoR springs to mind where Kaladin takes in Stormlight to fight Adolin on the sparring grounds and loses his powers because he was intending to hurt Adolin.\

Is it really okay for him to kill to avenge as long as he's also protecting?

 

Thanks to both of you for the clarification, the people on this forum are so nice, even when facing opposing viewpoints 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

48 minutes ago, Jimpy said:

So I guess now my argument is that Kaladin was definitely acting to protect Dalinar, but his intentions weren't completely pure. We've seen that intent is very important in this world, one scene in WoR springs to mind where Kaladin takes in Stormlight to fight Adolin on the sparring grounds and loses his powers because he was intending to hurt Adolin.\

Is it really okay for him to kill to avenge as long as he's also protecting?

I think if you read the scene again Kaladin is really focused on protecting Dalinar, he's not so consumed with his own personal vengeance that he fails to notice the Fused harrying Dalinar. Multiple times during the fight with Amaram he pulls away from the fight to fend off some Fused that are threatening Dalinar. I actually think that the whole exchange Kaladin has with Amaram during their fight is Kaladin literally turning away from the simple hatred he had for Meirdas because of a key realization. Amaram in his pride tries to take credit for forging Kaladin into what he has become, but Kaladin realizes that the strength that he has was his all along. This is not an epiphany of a man consumed by hatred, he realizes that it's his own inner strength is what makes him "The Spear that Wouldn't Break" not what was externally done to him.

[Jimpy he/him]

Just now, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I think if you read the scene again Kaladin is really focused on protecting Dalinar, he's not so consumed with his own personal vengeance that he fails to notice the Fused harrying Dalinar. Multiple times during the fight with Amaram he pulls away from the fight to fend off some Fused that are threatening Dalinar. I actually think that the whole exchange Kaladin has with Amaram during their fight is Kaladin literally turning away from the simple hatred he had for Meirdas because of a key realization. Amaram in his pride tries to take credit for forging Kaladin into what he has become, but Kaladin realizes that the strength that he has was his all along. This is not an epiphany of a man consumed by hatred, he realizes that it's his own inner strength is what makes him "The Spear that Wouldn't Break" not what was externally done to him.

Oh that's right! I understand completely now and I think you're right about him turning away from simple hatred. Thanks friend!

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

Just now, Jimpy said:

Oh that's right! I understand completely now and I think you're right about him turning away from simple hatred. Thanks friend!

No problem, currently out of upvotes but will get you one when they trickle back in. Brandon is an amazing writer because nuance and subtle distinctions have magical consequences. If Kaladin had snuck into Amaram's camp and killed him in the night, like he planned to do in WoR when he was consumed with Hatred, he would have lost his Radiance. The moral dimension in the cosmere is deeply significant.

[Subvisual Haze]

I'm not a big fan of the change either, since it seems to adopt a highly fictionalized idea of battle that is all too present in media.  It seems to adopt the dangerous Batman fiction that you can deliver crushing blows of massive force to someone's head or chest, but the bad guys will only die if the hero purposefully delivers a killing stroke, otherwise they are "just injured".  Not only is that of course hilariously unrealistic regarding the sort of injuries that can kill a human, it also breeds an unnatural glorification of "non-fatal" consequence free violence in the minds the reader. 

Kaladin is a soldier, any time he throws himself into combat he is in "kill or be killed" mode.  He is wielding a weapon that can kill a man at a glance if it strikes in the appropriate place.  He has fought in multiple battles.  Throwing in a sudden implication that Kaladin shies away from a killing strike in the heat of an extended battle seems unrealistic.

Ultimately, I think the narrative reason for the change is to set up a future "Kaladin does not kill humans" moral conflict.  We see this point reinforced in Oathbringer in the fight in Kholinar (he does not want to kill either side), in the flashback to his drill instructor, and him not delivering the killing blow to Amaram.  This seems really bizarre in hindsight for the above reasons, and also because we know he killed a lot of Listeners at the Battle of the Tower.  

Perhaps this will tie into his 4th Windrunner Oath (being willing to accept the necessity of killing in rare circumstances)? 

[Calderis he/him]

I know that Brandon felt that the change was necessary, but I will continue to say that I believe the change is detrimental. The original ending was accurate to how combat works in that Kaladin delivered a strike that was intended to be blocked to set up further strikes, and when Szeth failed to block he was surprised. 

The new ending makes it so that Kaladin reacts faster than he should be able to, but worse it makes him into a hypocrite. The moment that Kaladin decided that killing Szeth was wrong and would be murder, he chooses to let him fall to his death in favor of recovering the Honorblade. 

If Szeth shouldn't have been killed, how is choosing not to protect him from the fall not breaking the third oath? 

I will hold to the first ending until the text makes it impossible to reconcile. The new ending bothers me for far to many reasons. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Calderis

[Rainier]

32 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Ultimately, I think the narrative reason for the change is to set up a future "Kaladin does not kill humans" moral conflict. 

I agree with your entire post, and would like to address this because while I think you're right about the intention, we're both unhappy with the execution.

Kaladin has already killed humans. He's killed plenty of them, either in order to protect his men or for revenge (killing Helaran, not to protect his men, but as vengeance for killing his men). He's already a killer of men and there's not much point in denying it. I would have preferred for Kal to kill Szeth (and if you ask me he did because that's what my book says) and then dwell on it later. Kaladin should have reflected on why he killed Szeth, and why it was right or wrong. He could have had some PTSD from the killing as it haunted him. This would be much more realistic than recognizing Szeth's acceptance just in the nick of time to avert the killing blow.

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I will hold to the first ending until the text makes it impossible to reconcile. The new ending bothers me for far to many reasons. 

Yes, yes, yes. I'm right there with you. Don't talk to me about Kaladin sparing Szeth, because he didn't. He ran him through with Syl and left him for the storms. 

[Jimpy he/him]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The moment that Kaladin decided that killing Szeth was wrong and would be murder, he chooses to let him fall to his death in favor of recovering the Honorblade. 

If Szeth shouldn't have been killed, how is choosing not to protect him from the fall not breaking the third oath? 

I will hold to the first ending until the text makes it impossible to reconcile. The new ending bothers me for far to many reasons. 

Speaking of this, can anyone quote the new passage to me? I've basically only read Sanderson's post about it.

5 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Kaladin has already killed humans. He's killed plenty of them, either in order to protect his men or for revenge (killing Helaran, not to protect his men, but as vengeance for killing his men). He's already a killer of men and there's not much point in denying it. I would have preferred for Kal to kill Szeth (and if you ask me he did because that's what my book says) and then dwell on it later. Kaladin should have reflected on why he killed Szeth, and why it was right or wrong. He could have had some PTSD from the killing as it haunted him. This would be much more realistic than recognizing Szeth's acceptance just in the nick of time to avert the killing blow.

I agree that this would have been a good solution, I assume that Sanderson was taking the opportunity where he saw it, and felt that it would have been more detrimental to let the fanbase stew on Kal's decision for a few more years, but sweeping it under the rug also feels like a poor call.

It's as if Sanderson couldn't live with Kaladin needing to live with his decision.

I can see another point to this though. Dalinar is already tormenting himself because of his wife and Rathalas, tossing another character into that same boat would feel repetitive.

I have tremendous respect for Brandon but these books are starting to feel a little spotty, between this and all the strange holes in character development.

[scyron he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

If Szeth shouldn't have been killed, how is choosing not to protect him from the fall not breaking the third oath? 

I certainly agree that the whole revision was not all that cleanly executed and that even with stormlight, Kaladin probably reacted too fast.

However, you brought up the 3rd oath and I don't think Kaladin went against it . In my mind, there is a distinction between actually killing Szeth and allowing him to fall into the storm and I will explain why.

Kaladin's 3rd oath:

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I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.

The phrase "so long as it is right" is key here. While protecting Dalinar and co. from Szeth, he was fulfilling his oath to protect. Once Szeth gave up, there was no longer any danger and thus no protection was needed and as you all mentioned, it would basically be murder for Kaladin to kill him.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

If Szeth shouldn't have been killed, how is choosing not to protect him from the fall not breaking the third oath? 

So if I understand correctly, you are saying that Kaladin should have stopped Szeth from falling into the storm because doing otherwise would go against his oath of protecting even those he hates.

I think he let Szeth die because of the words "so long as it is right". In Kaladin's eyes, even if it would be murder to kill Szeth, that does not necessarily mean it would by right to protect him from suicide either. Szeth has murdered a lot of people and even if he thought he was Truthless, he still murdered them. Because of that, Kaladin believed Szeth did not deserve to be saved and thus, was not breaking his oath by letting Szeth fall.

Maybe there would have been a better way to revise it while still making it seem realistic, but personally I think Kaladin's actions align with his honor and ideals.

1 hour ago, Jimpy said:

Speaking of this, can anyone quote the new passage to me? I've basically only read Sanderson's post about it.

Here is one of the original threads about the revision with a full side by side comparison several posts in.

Edited January 15, 2018 by scyron

[Rainier]

59 minutes ago, Jimpy said:

and felt that it would have been more detrimental to let the fanbase stew on Kal's decision for a few more years

If this is a serious concern of his then he either needs to release these books serially and constantly or he needs to finish his arcs before release. Brandon, as a veteran fantasy fan, knows what it's like waiting between books, so he's got to accept the challenges that come with the territory.

1 hour ago, Jimpy said:

Dalinar is already tormenting himself because of his wife and Rathalas, tossing another character into that same boat would feel repetitive.

This is a characteristic of Brandon's: he always has us right up inside our main characters' heads. He loves to take us behind the eyes and show us what each person is actually thinking, mostly by giving them incomplete information and then having them second-guess themselves. The whole series is exactly this, so again, if he didn't want it this way he shouldn't have made it this way.

[wotbibliophile]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I know that Brandon felt that the change was necessary, but I will continue to say that I believe the change is detrimental.

I strongly agree. I think letting Szeth fall in order to grab the Honorblade is much worse than killing Szeth during a fight. I also pretend the original ending still holds.

 

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

Kaladin should have reflected on why he killed Szeth, and why it was right or wrong. He could have had some PTSD from the killing as it haunted him. This would be much more realistic than recognizing Szeth's acceptance just in the nick of time to avert the killing blow.

This is a great point.

[Calderis he/him]

@scyron and I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree.

If Szeth deserved to die, the manner in which it happened is irrelevant. Failing to deliver the kill blow does nothing but ease Kaladin's conscience. 

[Song she/her]

3 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I think if you read the scene again Kaladin is really focused on protecting Dalinar, he's not so consumed with his own personal vengeance that he fails to notice the Fused harrying Dalinar. Multiple times during the fight with Amaram he pulls away from the fight to fend off some Fused that are threatening Dalinar. I actually think that the whole exchange Kaladin has with Amaram during their fight is Kaladin literally turning away from the simple hatred he had for Meirdas because of a key realization. Amaram in his pride tries to take credit for forging Kaladin into what he has become, but Kaladin realizes that the strength that he has was his all along. This is not an epiphany of a man consumed by hatred, he realizes that it's his own inner strength is what makes him "The Spear that Wouldn't Break" not what was externally done to him.

Yes this!

As the fight goes on Kaladin cares less and less about killing Amaran. It is a ramped up version of his interaction with Roshone, where he realises that vengence is not a worthy focus. 

And a complete and intentional contast to Moash, who is numb and when Lady Lewisham asks what he wants, all he cares about is revenge.

As a writer I am facinated when Brandon changes things or lets people live who he originally planned to kill. As a reader I kind of wish I didn't know, it changes how I feel about a character and pulls me out of the story too much.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I really hated the change, because it didn't make Kaladin into a protector in my eyes, but simply removed responsibility from him while achieving the same thing (zero chance of Szeth surviving without the Honorblade a thousand foot fall). So basically he condemned Szeth to die after refusing to kill him? Nevr workd for me. Until I realized the ending change didn't actually change Kaladin's position, but Szeth's position. Szeth fully gives up on life after seing he isn't Truthless, in the originaly ending it was seen, but not so clear cut, and left some room for questioning that Szeth let himself be killed out of laziness or because it was easier. The new ending shows Szeth fully giving up and killing himself over his past actions.

Of course others will see it differently, but its how I see it in my mind to not hate the end change, which made Kaladin worse in my eyes, as sparing someone to then condemn them to death to go chase an Hoorblade...was not exactly honorable . 

Edited January 16, 2018 by WhiteLeeopard
Clarification

[scyron he/him]

17 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I really hated the change, because it didn't make Kaladin into a protector in my eyes, but simply removed responsibility from him while achieving the same thing (zero chance of Szeth surviving without the Honorblade a thousand foot fall). So basically he condemned Szeth to die after refusing to kill him?

As Calderis said, I guess this is where we disagree fundamentally. I don't see it so much as Kaladin condemning Szeth to die in the storm (which is basically the same as just killing him), but more of Szeth seeking death as he has wanted to for a long time after accepting that he is not Truthless and Kaladin letting him choose that.

But like you said, everyone is going to see it differently and fortunately, we can all still appreciate the pure genius of the book even if we don't agree. 

[Subvisual Haze]

I think we need to consider the possibility that Brandon is messing with us much like George Lucas and his repeated strange edits of Han and Greedo's confrontation.

Who wants to make a "Kaladin Stabbed First" t-shirt?

[Subvisual Haze]

24 minutes ago, scyron said:

As Calderis said, I guess this is where we disagree fundamentally. I don't see it so much as Kaladin condemning Szeth to die in the storm (which is basically the same as just killing him), but more of Szeth seeking death as he has wanted to for a long time after accepting that he is not Truthless and Kaladin letting him choose that.

But like you said, everyone is going to see it differently and fortunately, we can all still appreciate the pure genius of the book even if we don't agree. 

I don't get this either though.  We've even had an important flashback scene between Lirin and Kaladin (when Roshone is at risk of bleeding out on the operating table) where Lirin briefly considers letting Roshone die, but later declares that allowing a person to die when you have the power to stop it is morally just as wrong as killing them.

Kaladin closely follows his father's surgeon ethics, and at one point declares Lirin the only honorable man he ever knew.  The difference between Kaladin directly killing Szeth, versus doing nothing when Szeth allows the storm to take him, really isn't that different in Kaladin's ethical worldview.

[Andy92]

#KalStabbedFirst

[+Harrycrapper]

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9 hours ago, Jimpy said:

Was this known before Kaladin went to confront him? I don't think it was, and it doesn't change Kaladin's attitude. He was very much pleased at the chance to fight Amaram, and that was a vengeful attitude.

That is a fantastic point, but again I'm not completely convinced. Killing Szeth even though he gave up would be an act of murder because the intention was no longer to protect Dalinar. When fighting Amaram though, his intentions weren't nearly as single minded, the motive for his fight was protecting Dalinar, but beneath that was a desire to kill Meridas.

So I guess now my argument is that Kaladin was definitely acting to protect Dalinar, but his intentions weren't completely pure. We've seen that intent is very important in this world, one scene in WoR springs to mind where Kaladin takes in Stormlight to fight Adolin on the sparring grounds and loses his powers because he was intending to hurt Adolin.\

Is it really okay for him to kill to avenge as long as he's also protecting?

 

Thanks to both of you for the clarification, the people on this forum are so nice, even when facing opposing viewpoints 

 

Kaladin had fought that Unmade back in Kholinar earlier in the book, so he probably recognized the effects. 

[Govir]

13 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Kaladin closely follows his father's surgeon ethics, and at one point declares Lirin the only honorable man he ever knew.  The difference between Kaladin directly killing Szeth, versus doing nothing when Szeth allows the storm to take him, really isn't that different in Kaladin's ethical worldview.

But a difference between Szeth and Rashone is that Szeth has given up and wants to die, whereas Rashone wanted to live.

[Bort he/him]

15 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I don't get this either though.  We've even had an important flashback scene between Lirin and Kaladin (when Roshone is at risk of bleeding out on the operating table) where Lirin briefly considers letting Roshone die, but later declares that allowing a person to die when you have the power to stop it is morally just as wrong as killing them.

Kaladin closely follows his father's surgeon ethics, and at one point declares Lirin the only honorable man he ever knew.  The difference between Kaladin directly killing Szeth, versus doing nothing when Szeth allows the storm to take him, really isn't that different in Kaladin's ethical worldview.

Yet, at the end of that very same chapter, Kaladin realises that he could have just left Roshone to die, and probably would have done so.

[Subvisual Haze]

The interesting thing about the retcon is that taken in isolation, it's not even a bad scene.  It's not incredible, but taken in isolation it's a perfectly inoffensive conclusion to the battle.  It's only the fact that I know it was originally something different, and that purposefully changing it was apparently very important to the author that it draws my attention for fine-tuned analysis.  I think it's a case of myself the reader seeing behind the curtain and losing my willful suspension of disbelief.  I'm no longer viewing the scene as simply an event that occured in-story (which I would normally accept out of hand as part of the story experience process), but now the scene is something more mechanical and meta.  Weird!