[Full Book Spoilers] Tracking the benefits recieved from progressing as a Knight Radiant.

[Krenn]

I'm trying to track how many oaths each Knight Radiant has made, and what the benefits were at each point. In particular, at what point do Knight Radiants acquire shardblades, shardplate, and control of their powers?

 

First, Shallan:

 

To the best of my knowledge, we have never actually SEEN Shallan take the First Oath, ("Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.")

However, we now know that Shallan possessed an active shardblade as a child, and that her spren, Pattern, was apparently present in a limited way when she was a child.

 

I believe this indicates that Shallan must have spoken the First Oath as a child, and that her order, at least, recieves their shardblades after the First Oath.

 

Shallan spoke a 'Truth' at the end of Way of Kings, which i believe counted as the Second Oath. The second oath seems to have granted her access to soulcasting, lightweaving, and absorbing stormlight.

Shallan spoke another 'Truth' at the end of Word of Radiance:  I THINK that counts as the Third Oath, but we haven't seen any special benefit of progressing that far.  I would have thought that Knights Radiant would acquire Shard Plate by the time they speak the third oath, but apparently not.

 

 

Second, Kaladin:

 

Kaladin speaks the First Oath during Way of Kings.
("Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.")

 

I'm working from memory, but i believe that speaking that oath seemed to give him more reliable access to stormlight, gravity, and adhesion.

 

Kaladin spoke SOMETHING else during Way of Kings, but I'm not certain that it counted as an oath.

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves". this MIGHT be the second oath, but i don't recall Kaladin gaining any special powers when he spoke it. it's also very similiar to what WAS an oath at the end of Words of Radiance:
"I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right."

Either those two sentences together constitute the second oath, or they are the second and third oaths, respectively. Either way, Kaladin recieved HIS shardblade AFTER speaking the oath in WoR. this seems to imply that different orders recieve shardblades at different times.  If Kaladin still has a third oath to speak, that would be the logical time for him to recieve shardplate.
 

We don't know how many Oaths Renarin has spoken: so far, we only know that he can heal his eyesight, and can apparently communicate with his Spren.
 

  Dalinar has spoken two oaths at the end of WoR: It's implied that he MIGHT be due a shardblade after two oaths, but the Stormfather has refused to become one.

Can anyone else comment on what milestones each of the knights radiant have reached at this point, and what benefits they recieved at each point?  It's also possible that my notes could be incorrect, since I'm working from memory. Feel free to correct me.

[taveren he/him]

even if she said it as a child would it count would she really understand the meaning of the words

it was said somewhere that lightweavers operated a bit differently with their spren maybe they get a blade right away

 

the whole stormfather thing seems odd that his bond would give the same powers as what ever spren normally make bondsmiths maybe there is something more here

[Swimmingly he/him]

I'm sorry, but Kal is just a whole new level of awesome above Shallan at this point. Glyphs materialize from Stormlight when he lands. He uses Lashings instinctively, while Shallan still has to put effort into it.

That reminds me, anyone have any idea what a Lightweaver could do to break their bond?

[marianmi]

I think Shallan is also level 3, like Kaladin, now.

 

When speaking her second truth (that she hates Pattern), she used her lightweaving abilities w/o drawing.

Edited March 6, 2014 by marianmi

[Walker]

Kaladin spoke SOMETHING else during Way of Kings, but I'm not certain that it counted as an oath.

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves". this MIGHT be the second oath, but i don't recall Kaladin gaining any special powers when he spoke it.

 

I am puzzled why you would say this. The book outright says this is an oath. There is a sentence in the book that explicitly calls this the Second Ideal of the Knights Radiant. Also, Kaladin claims that Stormlight usage is easier after this oath.

 

it's also very similiar to what WAS an oath at the end of Words of Radiance:

"I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right."

This is a completely different oath. The entire point of Kaladin's internal conflict in WOR is how different this oath is; otherwise he is just protecting people he likes. Besides, Syl did not come back when he said the previous oath (he respoke the first two oaths while confronting Moash). He had to say this new, third oath to regain her.

The real ambiguity for the number of oaths is Dalinar. I see that Coppermind is claiming that he actually said two different oaths at the end of Words of Radiance, when it sounded like one to me.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Walker

[Krenn]

 

I am puzzled why you would say this. The book outright says this is an oath. There is a sentence in the book that explicitly calls this the Second Ideal of the Knights Radiant. Also, Kaladin claims that Stormlight usage is easier after this oath.

 

It's entirely possible that i missed that portion of way of kings the last time i re-read.  You're probably right.

However, that would mean that both Kaladin AND Shallan have reached Tier 3 without obtaining shardplate. Which raises the question: Where does shardplate come from?  is it manufactured somehow by one of the other orders, and provided to other Knight Radiants as a courtesy?

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

Judging by the fact that Syl doesn't say anything about disliking plate and surgebinders have been shown to wear plate without any signs of screaming in their head, I don't believe plate is formed from a spren like the blade is. They had pretty advanced fabrials during the KR time so I'd guess that the plate is either a fabrial or, as @krenn suggests, one of the orders that uses the Progession surge is actually able to "grow" shardplate. The description of how the plate repairs itself after being damage leads me to believe the later is likely.

[Seerow]

I really doubt that the Plate is a Fabrial (In Dalinar's visions there were basically no fabrials. He confirms this to Navani in WoK), and I'm still holding to the belief that it comes with the 4th Oath (which thus far nobody has spoken that we've seen, right?). The simplest answer is often correct, and in this case getting your weapon with one oath and armor with the next is a lot simpler than getting a weapon with one oath and your armor from another order growing special copies of plate.

[Krenn]

I really doubt that the Plate is a Fabrial (In Dalinar's visions there were basically no fabrials. He confirms this to Navani in WoK), and I'm still holding to the belief that it comes with the 4th Oath (which thus far nobody has spoken that we've seen, right?). The simplest answer is often correct, and in this case getting your weapon with one oath and armor with the next is a lot simpler than getting a weapon with one oath and your armor from another order growing special copies of plate.

I thought we were told that there were only 3 oaths? has there been any mention of 4 total oaths in the books?

[Krenn]

I thought we were told that there were only 3 oaths? has there been any mention of 4 total oaths in the books?

found the reference: looks like there are FIVE total oaths.

But The Immortal Words - These Ideals - guided everything they did. The four later Ideals were said to be different for every other Order of Radiants. But the First Ideal was the same for each of the ten: Life Before Death, Strength Before Weakness Journey Before Destination. --Teft ^[1]

so there's still room for Kaladin to acquire shardplate by speaking a later oath.

however, that still raises the question of how Shallan managed to get a shardblade so much earlier in her progression than Kaladin did.

[Seerow]

edit: nevermind 

Edited March 6, 2014 by Seerow

[Walker]

however, that still raises the question of how Shallan managed to get a shardblade so much earlier in her progression than Kaladin did.

 

This is indeed a very good question.  I wonder if this is a Cryptic/Honorspren difference.

[Xavien]

I think Shallan is also level 3, like Kaladin, now.

 

When speaking her second truth (that she hates Pattern), she used her lightweaving abilities w/o drawing.

 

I thought it was more that Shallan cannot lie to herself.  The entire book she refuses to acknowledge what happened to her as a child and had actively blocked it from her memory.  Unblocking and confronting the truth about herself was the ideal, acknowledging her feelings about Pattern were a side effect.  This would also be how she can break her oath, by lying to herself.

[marianmi]

This is indeed a very good question.  I wonder if this is a Cryptic/Honorspren difference.

 

It is clearly stated in the WoR quotes from WoR that Cryptics - are much more liberal than other spren. 

They don't even need oaths. They need truths.

There was the story of a guy that was an awesome fighter, but not that smart. He wanted simple oaths, but was bonded by a cryptic. Hence, he could not progress to level 5. If he would have been bonded by a honorspren for example, he would have made lvl 5 easy probably.

 

So cryptics are ... very different (and dangerous). They also give you access to shardblade immediately.

Edited March 6, 2014 by marianmi

[marianmi]

I thought it was more that Shallan cannot lie to herself.  The entire book she refuses to acknowledge what happened to her as a child and had actively blocked it from her memory.  Unblocking and confronting the truth about herself was the ideal, acknowledging her feelings about Pattern were a side effect.  This would also be how she can break her oath, by lying to herself.

 

Maybe. But she should be able to make illusions w/o drawing first. And I think she now can.

On the bad side ... she HATES Pattern. Here's an entry for Odium.

[junior]

 

The real ambiguity for the number of oaths is Dalinar. I see that Coppermind is claiming that he actually said two different oaths at the end of Words of Radiance, when it sounded like one to me.

 

Dalinar clearly states that he knows the second oath during his conversation with the Stormfather.  But there's a bit of a question mark in my mind over whether his subsequent statement is actually the oath, or whether he's waiting to recite it at a later date.

[Seerow]

Dalinar clearly states that he knows the second oath during his conversation with the Stormfather.  But there's a bit of a question mark in my mind over whether his subsequent statement is actually the oath, or whether he's waiting to recite it at a later date.

 

He states the second Oath.

 

His first Oath was the same one all Radiants take "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination"

 

His second Oath was "I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together"

[Walker]

Dalinar clearly states that he knows the second oath during his conversation with the Stormfather.  But there's a bit of a question mark in my mind over whether his subsequent statement is actually the oath, or whether he's waiting to recite it at a later date.

 

Sorry, that is not what I meant.  

If you look at CopperMind, someone claims "I will bring men together" is the Third Ideal.  Meaning that "I will unite instead of divide" and "I will bring men together" are two different oaths.

[Seerow]

 

Sorry, that is not what I meant.  

If you look at CopperMind, someone claims "I will bring men together" is the Third Ideal.  Meaning that "I will unite instead of divide" and "I will bring men together" are two different oaths.

 

Yeah, without more information I wouldn't believe that.

[Seloun]

I'm not sure if Cryptics have the same regimental advancement thing as some of the other Orders. That said, I don't think the First Ideal necessarily provides Lightweavers access to their Shardblades (perhaps the Second Ideal, which would still be different from Windrunners or at least Kaladin).

 

In particular I was under the impression that Shallan first summons her Shardblade defending against her mother. In WoK she calls the shardblade something like 'the fruits of her most horrific act' or something similar. I figured Shallan spoke her first truth (maybe second, if the Third ideal or equivalent for really necessary for the Shardblade) when her mother attacked - maybe something like 'My mother hates me!'

[marianmi]

I think shardblades come after oaths.

In her case, there is only 1 oath. so she got it after the oath when she was a kid.

 

Then she started telling herself lies, and Pattern became as dead as Syl in WoR.

After the truth spoken in TwoK, she advanced in level, and Pattern came back, as Syl did after Kal's 3rd oath.

Makes sense?

[bludvein]

Kal still has 2 more oaths to speak though, and he has the blade.

 

On a seperate note, I was skimming some of my favorite parts of the book, and im pretty sure we got confirmation that shardplate comes from the bond too. The Stormfather tells Dalinar that he would be a radiant with no shards. So 1 of the last 2 windrunner oaths is bound to give Kal plate, although I have no idea what the other oath will do. Might be a flat stormlight efficiency/retention buff like the 2nd ideal, but that seems a bit crude for a higher level ideal.

Edited March 7, 2014 by bludvein

[Yamahako he/him]

Given that we've seen Half-Shard shields, I imagine that Shard Plate could eventually be crafted.  The one flashback where Dalinar keeps getting confused about where the Radiant's helm went, though, reminds me of Syl changing shape in the fight with Szeth, which makes me wonder.  I seem to remember a Szeth POV saying that he can't use Shard Plate because it would interfere with his lashing.  Are we SURE Kaladin get's shard plate?  Or is the distinction because Szeth got his powers from and Honorblade?  Maybe not all orders get Shard Plate.

If you read carefully, Shalan's shardblade ALSO changes shape in the chasm when she's digging the cave to protect her and Kaladin from the high storm.  When I first read it, I thought she had inherited an Honorblade somehow. 

 

Pre-apology for spelling, I listen to the books rather than read them.

[bludvein]

The "half-shards" work on a different principles than shardplate, and nobody has any clue how shardplate works(despite boasting), just like shardblades. If they were possible to manufacture, everybody in Dalinar's vision would've worn it, not just the Radiants.

 

It may interfere because its "dead". The plate in the flashback glows, and Dalinar describes it as looking different than modern day plate. Sort of like Kaladin's shardblade, hmm?

 

Also, it makes no sense for it to block only lashings, but allow other types of surgebindings. We saw knights in plate using their abilities from inside their armor with no interference.

Edited March 7, 2014 by bludvein

[TomR]

I think Shallan is also level 3, like Kaladin, now.

 

When speaking her second truth (that she hates Pattern), she used her lightweaving abilities w/o drawing.

 

I don't think it's that she hates Pattern. Lightweaver truths are about self-awareness:

 

Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 12, page 12

 

Shallan was lying to herself about her role in her mother's death, "I don't remember what happened." Any time Pattern brought it up before they got to Urithiru, she'd blank out and ignore it (most notable in the carriage when they're talking about Shallan using sound, Pattern says she did it before, you get an ellipsis and Shallan suddenly changes the subject). It was confronting the past that is the second truth.

 

When you get your Blade I think relates to how Physical your spren's presence is:

 

for though the bond between man and spren was at times inexplicable, the ability for bonded spren to manifest in our world rather than their own grew stronger through the course of the oaths given. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 35, page 9

 

The more you speak oaths, the more the spren can manifest in the Physical instead of the Cognitive. Pattern is always at least a little in the Physical; he can't make himself completely invisible, and he raises his "pattern" on whatever object he's standing on. Compare that to Syl, who calls windspren her cousins, she doesn't have as much physicality and requires more oaths to manifest as a Blade (or spear or hammer or what-have-you).

 

Regarding Plate, I also think it's grown (Adolin even calls a piece of his armor a "seed" one time), but not directly by the Progression Surge. I think this is more related to the bits of Cultivation in the nahel-spren. When spren bond with creatures like Greatshells (and this is an actual bond rather than mutualism like with cremlings and plants), they grow gemhearts. Voidbringers keep in Stormlight perfectly; I'm going to speculate this happens because they grow gemhearts. Gemhearts absorb Stormlight. So does Shardplate, seen most spectacularly when Kaladin uses a helmet as his glove and loses his Stormlight. My theory is that Shardplate is the Knights Radiant version of a gemheart, and helps make them equal with Voidbringers, where their leaking Stormlight gets absorbed instead of wasted. It probably does require a greater number of oaths for a similar reason, that spren have trouble manifesting Physical effects until they get enough ideas to feed off of.

Edited March 7, 2014 by TomR