[OB] Hoid & Sand

[Gnmish]

Hi Guys,

I haven't seen this particular topic discussed here, apologies if I've missed it.

Warning: Spoilers for White Sand ahead!

On a rereading of Oathbringer, I noticed that right after Hoid's performance in Kholinar (The story of Mishim & Queen Tsa), Shallan noticed a something in Hoid's pack

"Small jar, sealed at the top. It was mostly black, but the side pointed toward her was instead white."

First thing I did was kick myself for not noticing this the first time, so Hoid was using ribbons of Sand Mastery to tell the tale rather than manipulating trails of smoke as Shallan assumed.

The second thing I did was notice the odd reaction Hoid had when glancing at his pack during the performance that lead him to actively start scanning the audience to find Shallan (burning Bronze?), as well as the fact that the sand was white on the side pointed toward Shallan.

It seems to me that this implies that Shallan's presence (or more accurately her use of Stormlight) actually reinfused the sand in the jar in same way that Taldain's sun does. While this isn't so much of a stretch, it is a bit odd that this can be done in a pack, at a distance, when on Taldain, it requires direct exposure to the sun for a decent amount of time.

Does anyone have any thoughts or WoB on the matter? 

[Weltall]

Hoid's storytelling method uses Yolish Lightweaving and when someone asked him if the story he tells in Warbreaker was related to White Sand, the answer was 'no'.

Quote

Nightfire107 ()

Does the sand storytelling Hoid uses in Warbreaker have anything to do with your future possible trilogy "Whitesand" written about in a recent blog?

Brandon Sanderson ()

No, it does not. This is a storytelling method that Hoid developed on his own. It does have a relationship to The Liar of Partinel.

This can also be applied to the stories he tells in earlier parts of Stormlight Archive. So while Hoid is apparently carrying around some sand from Taldain as a little sign to attentive readers that yes, he's been there, it's not a necessary part of his storytelling.

On the distance thing, Brandon has said that if you had some sand, you could theoretically recharge it anywhere in the Cosmere where you could see light from Taldain's star. Taldain is also noted to be one of the easiest planets to get Investiture from along with Roshar (specifically, in the context of Vasher) and we know that Investiture is to an extent fungible. Since both of these systems are relatively easy to get power out of and we already know that you can infuse stormlight into things, it's not too surprising that the stuff can recharge sand in close proximity.

Good spot, by the way.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Weltall

[RShara she/her]

I think Hoid is using the Yolish version of Lightweaving here, like he does with the Wandersail story, not mastering sand.  Note that the jar of sand is black, which means it's been used, except for the part facing Shallan, whose use of investiture is probably recharging it.  As far as we know, he has to be touching the sand to master it, and it would glow.  Then it would turn black and fall to the ground once he released it.  I think that Shallan and the rest of the audience would have noticed those things.

Edited January 7, 2018 by RShara

[Calderis he/him]

@Weltall we actually have a WoB about the sand specifically that you can recharge the sand with any investiture. Taldain's suns investiture isn't needed.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5/#e3233

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Most of them require tampering. Some of them are a little bit easier than others. It depends on really what you mean. For instance, white sand can be charged in the presence of any Investiture right? It's just-- But that's not really using the magic, it's just charging it with other Investiture. But, you know, it would be very easy, for instance, if you can get yourself Invested-- Like, for instance, it'd be very easy to use Breaths to fuel Windrunning right? Because the oath and the bond and things like that are going to make it pretty easy. However fueling Allomancy with something else is going to be a lot harder. So it really depends on the magic. It's the sort of thing that there will be lots of science in the books dedicated to making happen in the future and you will find some of the processes these work easier than other ones.

 

[Gnmish]

52 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Weltall we actually have a WoB about the sand specifically that you can recharge the sand with any investiture. Taldain's suns investiture isn't needed.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5/#e3233

 

Thanks Calderis, that's exactly the kind of WoB I was hoping someone would have up their sleeve! 

From that reference, I think it's very likely Shallan's lightweaving did partially regenerate the sand giving her away during Hoids little performance.

58 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think Hoid is using the Yolish version of Lightweaving here, like he does with the Wandersail story, not mastering sand.  Note that the jar of sand is black, which means it's been used, except for the part facing Shallan, whose use of investiture is probably recharging it.  As far as we know, he has to be touching the sand to master it, and it would glow.  Then it would turn black and fall to the ground once he released it.  I think that Shallan and the rest of the audience would have noticed those things.

As he was physically throwing stuff into the brazier (presumably from the jar) there was contact involved, also if Hoid is talented enough (and I would assume he is) he could just ribbon the sand back into the jar to store it as he does kill the streams several times in the performance.

I also still don't see a reason for Hoid to carry around a jar of used sand if he wasn't actively using it, especially when he looks exhausted after the performance (dehydration?) and pointedly says he misses his flute. I would assume the flute was integral to his story telling magic and without it Sand Mastery is his next best option.

If Brandon just wanted to put in some more winks to world hopping (ala Mraize's Den) would he not have added some vials of metal powder, a stone stamp, or a bunch of little dolls made out of straw as well.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Gnmish

[RShara she/her]

58 minutes ago, Gnmish said:

As he was physically throwing stuff into the brazier (presumably from the jar) there was contact involved, also if Hoid is talented enough (and I would assume he is) he could just ribbon the sand back into the jar to store it as he does kill the streams several times in the performance.

No, I mean, to master sand, you have to have one end of the sand ribbon touching your skin.  Cut off that connection and the ribbon dies from the cut on, and turns black and falls down.

I'm sure he's using it, I just don't think he's using it at that particular time.

Edited January 7, 2018 by RShara

[Subvisual Haze]

His pack might also contain a detection fabrial specially configured to alert him to illusion magic.  It would be rather ironic if Hoid was carting around a fabrial powered by a captured yellow odiumspren at the same time other odiumspren are clearing the city of fabrials.

As for the sand, I think it's actually dust.  As was mentioned already, Hoid uses a form of lightweaving involving dust, and Vasher even refers to Hoid as "Dust" when Kaladin is looking for him in WoR.

Only a couple of preview chapters were posted long ago for Liar of Partinel, and those aren't likely canon by any stretch of the imagination. 

Spoiler

They did mention Hoid performing illusion magic with handfuls of dust that he kept in the pockets of his long brown coat though (I think the coat itself may even make an appearance in the last chapter of Oathbringer).

 

[HoidvsVoid]

I wouldn't be surprised that the jar contained something that could actually locate an invested person/object. That would explain how he can pinpoint the people with investiture throughout the cosmere. Maybe sand, but personally I think it is something else.

[Weltall]

@Calderis Ahh, somehow I either missed seeing that one or I forgot all about it. Nice.

10 hours ago, Gnmish said:

I also still don't see a reason for Hoid to carry around a jar of used sand if he wasn't actively using it, especially when he looks exhausted after the performance (dehydration?) and pointedly says he misses his flute. I would assume the flute was integral to his story telling magic and without it Sand Mastery is his next best option.

If Brandon just wanted to put in some more winks to world hopping (ala Mraize's Den) would he not have added some vials of metal powder, a stone stamp, or a bunch of little dolls made out of straw as well.

As I mentioned, he uses sand in a previous storytelling scene in Warbreaker and we know that wasn't Taldaini sand because Brandon told us it's unrelated. It's just part of how he does things with his own Lightweaving. While it's not canon it's illustrative to consider that the Liar of Partinel sample he released shows the exact same storytelling method at work and that was from before Sand Mastery existed. And his flute is also not integral to his magic because he doesn't use that in Warbreaker or Words of Radiance and he's not exhausted there either. He just misses the flute because he liked it and it's valuable in some way (a common assumption is for historic reasons and that it used to belong to Rashek), not because he needs it for Lightweaving.

And Brandon has already dropped random worldhopping hints with Hoid even though they don't have any huge impact on what he's doing at any given moment. He mentions having perfect pitch when playing music, but it's not integral to the scene or what he's doing at the time so the only reason for him to mention it is to see if fans notice the reference.