My thoughts on new info from WoR

[skaa]

Alright, I still don't have the book with me, but being the spoiler-loving skaa that I am, I now know a lot of the new reveals and I'd like to share some of my thoughts. I'll probably add more stuff here later when I finally get to read the whole book.

1.) Shardblades are spren!

Some of you might remember this thread of mine wherein I tried to defend the idea that Shardblades are of Odium. One of my central claims was that Shardblades are the form that "Odiumspren" choose to take on the Physical Realm. People started objecting that Shardblades could not possibly be spren, so I compiled a list of similarities between spren and Shardblades, but that just lead to a pretty heated exchange that merely showed how much a jerk I could be sometimes. After a few days of that, I decided that I didn't argue my case very well, and that arguing for an idea that some people seemed to really dislike just wasn't worth my time.

So imagine my reaction when I read the part where Syl turned into a Shardblade! Also, someone on the StormlightReadalong reddit said that most Shardblades in modern Roshar are dead bondspren. It appears that the most controversial part of my "Odiumspren" thread was the one that was closest to the truth!

Now, about the "dead" Shardblades, I wonder why they remain in the Physical Realm when their owner dies. Also, what is the significance of ten heartbeats when summoning a dead spren? Is there something Odium-related involved in that rather creepy process? Anyway, it would be cool if Adolin could somehow revive his Shardblade and gain Surgebinding powers from the resurrected bondspren.

2.) Cohesion

It appears that my prediction on the final unnamed Surge was off. I thought it would be Magnetism, but I've read the Ars Arcanum and it's actually Cohesion. I don't know yet if that Surge was actually used in the book, but feel free to spoil me!

Anyway, the truth is I'm not as disappointed as I thought I'd be. In fact, I'm kind of happy that it turned out to be Cohesion, because it still fits the Attribute pair pattern that I laid out in my Attributes and Surges theory. I theorized that the unnamed Surge will be a balance between "Trust" and "Affinity". Cohesion is the attraction of similar particles to each other. You could say (metaphorically) that strongly cohesive particles "trust" other particles of its own group or affinity, so it fits the pattern.

I guess I just didn't think of cohesion while developing my theory because, in my mind, a Magnetism Surge just sounded so cool. Ah, well, so much for that...

3.) Szeth and Nalan

This is still related to my Attributes and Surges theory. You'll notice that one of my theoretical Attributes is Truth (the Primary Attribute of Tallow), which is connected to the Attribute of Law (the Primary Attribute of Vapor). When I first saw that, I immediately felt that it must have something to do with Szeth being "Truthless". Given that the concept of balance was central to my theory, I wondered if a Truthless is a corrupted proto-Skybreaker who embraced Law without regard to Truth. Jezrien's Honorblade made Szeth a Windrunner because it was the Honorblade of Windrunning, but I wondered if Szeth's actual affinity was with Nalan's Order of Skybreakers.

Hence, I was glad to know that Szeth ends up being recruited by Nalan in the end. Would anyone care to spoil me as to whether the "Truthless" title was finally explained in the book?

Edited March 9, 2014 by skaa

[Dru]

The shardblades remain in the physical realm since when the radiants summoned them and broke the bond the spren died. But a dead spren still exist so they remind as shardblads. It also says that the early shadblands could not be summoned/dismissed they where always in the physical realm. This changed when someone put a gem on there blade and then they managed to bond the blade and thus summon it. 

 

It also says that the dead spren lives a little again when someone sync their heartbeat to them. And this is why the blade can be summoned/dismissed. 

 

When a radiant or radiant potential person feels discomfort by shardblads they feel the dead spren and if they come in physical contact whit it they hear it scream. Maybe the Sprean are looked in their "death scream".

 

Maybe Adolin will manage to revive the spren in his blade since he treats it as something "living". And in the end when he fights Szeth he either thinks or hears a "duck" when he loose the view of Szeth. Guess it depends on the spren the blade is if it is one that would bond Adolin.

[skaa]

Thanks, Dru!

I've finally finished reading the book, during which I've collected a bunch of notes. I'll probably organize them later into separate threads, but I'll just dump them here for now:

Time measurement on the Shattered Plains warcamps:

"Second bell" = breakfast

"Tenth bell" = dinner

This indicates that there are ten time divisions, represented by the bells, during daylight (at least on the Shattered Plains warcamps). These bells do not seem to correspond to Roshar hours since the Axies chapter in WoK mentioned that 7:46 in Roshar time is still morning. Or is this a case of Brandon using Earth measurement systems for convenience (like how feet and inches are sometimes used)?

--

"The voice faded. For a moment, Kaladin thought he saw shadows of a world that was not, shadows of another place. And in that place, a distant sky with a sun enclosed, almost as if by a corridor of clouds."

Does this mean Kaladin accessed Shadesmar?

--

Eshonai hears screams when attuning to the Rhythm of Peace, so does Surgebinders who hold "dead" Shardblades. It seems that some sort of torture is involved in both cases. Do dead spren feel pain when they are summoned?

--

"Chicken" seems to be a generic term for birds on Roshar since parrots are also called chickens there. Or is that just non-Shin ignorance?

--

The Stormfather seems to be incapable of refusing Oaths. He's also the one responsible for bonding Parshendi to their spren (voidish or otherwise), and he can't refuse those either. These limitations makes him predictable, but it still worries me that he can be such a jackass sometimes.

--

"Urithiru was the connection to all nations," she read from the Shin writer's work. "And at times, our only path to the outside world, with its stones unhallowed."

We know that Szeth has visited Urithiru more than once. It's interesting because we also know that "Stones Unhallowed" is a possible title for his POV book.

--

Illusion Lightweaving uses the Body Focus of Exhalation to make Stormlight create the desired effect, and the Body Focus of Inhalation to retrieve Stormlight.

--

It appears Shallan will be able to create tangible illusions in Book Three. Oh, the possibilities!

--

Shallan's Memory abilities include being able to tune out something that she doesn't want to remember, even when other people mention it. This sounds eerily similar to what the Nightwatcher did to Dalinar.

--

Here is Taravangian inventing an excuse to Szeth as to how Kaladin could Surgebind:

"Yes," Szeth said. "An Alethi man who fed upon Stormlight. He healed a Blade-severed arm. He is... Radiant..."

...

"No, no," Taravangian said. "I have learned this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now. One of the Honorblades has vanished."

...

"Yes," Taravangian said. "I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes... I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it."

What I would like to know is this. Since any Surgebinder can use Stormlight to heal their own physical damage (as we've seen Kaladin, Shallan, and Renarin do), why did Taravangian have to mention Regrowth (a manifestation of the Progression Surge)? He seems to imply that Blade damage can only be healed by Surgebinders via Regrowth. But that presents a very interesting problem:

Kaladin is a Windrunner. He only has access to the Surges of Adhesion and Gravitation. Did he use Regrowth on himself?

The Stormlight was already working on his skin, which was shredded along his right side. He'd broken something in his shoulder; he could feel its healing as a burning pain that slowly retreated.

But his right forearm and hand, faintly lit by the Stormlight rising from the rest of him, were still a dull grey. Like a dead candle in a row, this part of him did not glow. He couldn't feel it; he couldn't even move the fingers.

...

Kaladin felt the Light working, the tempest within straining and pushing. He gritted his teeth and heaved somehow.

The color returned to his hand, and feeling-- cold pain-- suddenly flooded his arm, hand, fingers. Light began to stream from his hand.

--

We find confirmation that Kaladin's bond with Syl boosted his fighting skill:

"So everything I've done," Kaladin said. "My skill with the spear, the way I fight. That's not me. It's you."

"It's us."

"It's cheating. Unearned."

"Nonsense," Syl said. "You practice every day"

"I have an advantage."

"The advantage of talent." Syl said. "When the master musician first picks up an instrument and finds music in it that nobody else can, is that cheating? Is that art unearned, just because she is naturally more skilled? Or is it genius?"

It's interesting to note that in ancient Rome, "genius" referred to a spirit that guides a person.

--

The [Veil image] on Pattern would remain so long as he had Stormlight. That Stormlight drained from him a lot faster than it did from Shallan, though. She didn't know why.

This reminds me of how Surgebinders who got their powers from Honorblades also drain Stormlight faster than normal. Could there be a connection?

--

Kaladin mentions one of the Ten Fools by name: Eshu, who "spoke of things he did not understand in front of those who did."

--

"Chana" -- a Herald? Chach?

Ah. Chanaranach is her Vorin name.

--

Stormform Parshendi can shoot lightning, as I've predicted in my (still unfinished!) Voidbinding theory.

--

Urithiru is somewhere in "the mountains near Tu Bayla or maybe Emul." The mountains near Emul contain the Nightwatcher's Valley. I'm not sure if that's evidence for or against Urithiru being there.

--

Amaram and the "Sons of Honor" wanted the Voidbringers to return because they believe that this will also signal the return of the Heralds and the Knights Radiant. Their true goal was to restore the Knights Radiant. Nalan and the Skybreakers did not want Surgebinders to return because that would lead to the return of the Voidbringers and the Desolations. Taravangian's Diagram group already knew that the Surgebinders are back and are merely trying to prepare for the oncoming Desolation by unifying all the nations under Taravangian's rule (therefore seeing Dalinar as competition). It appears that none of these opposing groups are actually misinformed; they all agree upon the same seemingly correct underlying theory (the return of Surgebinders and the return of Voidbringers are linked). It's just their priorities that are different.

It's still unclear what the Ghostbloods' motives are. The Stone Shamans are foolish cowards who'd prefer to ignore the danger posed by Voidbringers than face it, but they have most of the Honorblades.

--

It seems that Intent really is important in keeping a Shardblade from disappearing. There goes my theory.

Overall I really enjoyed the book (proving to myself once again that no amount of spoilers can ruin a good book for me ). I like Shallan's character now. It feels like her "witty" lines (which I don't really enjoy reading as much as some people here) is just part of her lie. She makes herself sound silly and ridiculous so that people won't see the broken soul she's trying to hide. I actually found her non-"witty" lines quite enjoyable to read.

One of my few complaints is that we never saw young Shallan when she first bonded with Pattern. We never saw her speak the First Ideal. What age was she then, and did her young mind already understand the philosophy behind those words? We also did not see Glys, Renarin's spren. I hope he discards his dead Shardblade soon and speaks enough Words to obtain Glys' Shardblade form.

Lastly, I really hope all the ten Surges will be demonstrated in the third book. I mean, Szeth's about to battle Honoblade-wielding Shin warriors, after all. Man that'll be awesome!

Edited March 7, 2014 by skaa

[Argent]

That's a lot of stuff, but I'll randomly address your suspicion that Kaladin may have accessed Shadesmar. Pretty sure that's not the case and the description is just how the chasms look to him as he is "flying."

[Scott]

That's a lot of stuff, but I'll randomly address your suspicion that Kaladin may have accessed Shadesmar. Pretty sure that's not the case and the description is just how the chasms look to him as he is "flying."

 

I disagree.  Kaladin's description here is very specific: "a distant sky with a sun enclosed, almost as if by a corridor of clouds"

 

At this point Kaladin is standing at the bottom of the chasms.  I doubt he could see much of the sky at all, let alone a sun and a corridor of clouds.  On the flip side, every description of Shadesmar we have involves a distant sun and the same corridor of clouds.  I'm certain that he saw, just briefly, into the cognitive realm.  

[skaa]

Yeah. Good thing he didn't have to deal with the sea of beads. It appears that his momentary (and partial) presence in Shadesmar wasn't strong enough for that.

Edited March 7, 2014 by skaa

[Scott]

Yeah. Good thing he didn't have to deal with the sea of beads. It appears that his momentary (and partial) presence in Shadesmar wasn't strong enough for that.

 

It seemed very similar to what Shallan did after her shipwreck, how she was able to "peek" into Shadesmar without going there physically, at least until she lost her balance on the boundary.  It's worth noting that this is probably what Jasnah was doing in WoK when she pulled Shallan out of Shadesmar near the end of the book.

[skaa]

It seemed very similar to what Shallan did after her shipwreck, how she was able to "peek" into Shadesmar without going there physically, at least until she lost her balance on the boundary. It's worth noting that this is probably what Jasnah was doing in WoK when she pulled Shallan out of Shadesmar near the end of the book.

Jasnah was using some of the beads as a raft in that scene, though. She seems capable of manipulating Shadesmar beads at will even from the start, as we can clearly see from the WoR Prologue. Shallan, on the other hand, has to deal with the personalities of the beads.

[happyman]

That's a lot of stuff, but I'll randomly address your suspicion that Kaladin may have accessed Shadesmar. Pretty sure that's not the case and the description is just how the chasms look to him as he is "flying."

 

Add me to the list of people who actually think that Kaladin saw into Shadesmar, just a little bit, to get access to the Lashing.

 

I think this episode shows us pretty clearly that Windrunners do access Shadesmar a little bit in order to do their lashings.  However, it also strongly suggests that the don't have to go very deeply into Shadesmar to do so.

 

My guess is that just peeking into Shadesmar allows them to understand/see/manipulate the cognitive connections between things very slightly, thus allowing them to affect their world in limited ways via the lashings.

[PeterAhlstrom]

The 7:46 thing is because of different time systems in use in different areas.

The regrowth/Blade-severed arm thing has a specific reason for it.

[skaa]

The 7:46 thing is because of different time systems in use in different areas.

The regrowth/Blade-severed arm thing has a specific reason for it.

Thanks, Peter! So, do the Iriali start counting hours at midnight like in most Earth countries? And do the Alethi start near dawn?

Regarding Re-Growth, I wonder who else could've done what Kaladin did other than the two Progression Orders. If a Kalak Order Knight Radiant (for example) received non-fatal Shardblade damage, will he be able to heal the way Kaladin did?

Edited March 8, 2014 by skaa

[Releaser]

Regarding Re-Growth, I wonder who else could've done what Kaladin did other than the two Progression Orders. If a Kalak Order Knight Radiant (for example) received non-fatal Shardblade damage, will he be able to heal the way Kaladin did?

 

I just took that to be part of the ability of Adhesion that Windrunners get. Syl said she is a bindspren. Similar to how he can bind a rock to the wall. I'm curious to see if Kaladin can use his power to rebind dead limbs of his bridgecrew. Get Hobber his legs back. 

[Edgedancer]

The regrowth/Blade-severed arm thing has a specific reason for it.

And here I was thinking that Mr T just didn´t know how exactly Surges work and Regrowth/Progression was only needed to transfer the Stormlight healing to others.

Also, yes it seems that Kaladin can enter Shadesmar, which may be related to perceiving a direction as "down", so I guess it is a safe bet to say that you don´t need Transformation or Transportation to get in contact with Sahdesmar. Possibly they are only needed to actually enter and interact with the cognitive beads.

 

 

On the chickens, thats most likely just non-Shin ignorance. Heck, they don´t even know what a beak is.

[happyman]

Also, yes it seems that Kaladin can enter Shadesmar, which may be related to perceiving a direction as "down", so I guess it is a safe bet to say that you don´t need Transformation or Transportation to get in contact with Sahdesmar. Possibly they are only needed to actually enter and interact with the cognitive beads.

 

 

I would judge that we don't know that Windrunnders can enter Shadesmar in the same way, say, Jasnah or Shallan can.  Because all of the Surgebinders interact with Spren, to some extent, they are all dependent on Shadesmar for their powers.  We learn from Kaladin's viewpoint that even the less Shadesmar-intensive orders can see consciously there to use their powers.  But if I had to guess, it would be that Kaladin barely dipped a toe into Shadesmar in order to understand the cognitive nature of gravity and use it consciously, whereas Shallan and Jasnah enter much more fully in order to negotiate with the natural order.

[skaa]

From the Words of Radiance (the in-universe book):

As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the far realm of spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliry to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were the true masters of that realm

So I guess each KR Order does have varying levels of Shadesmar access, with the Elsecallers having the highest level, then the Lightweavers, the Truthwatchers, and everyone else.

By the way, I forgot to mention how awesome it was to finally see Soulcaster fabrial-users in action. It appears that repeated use of a Soulcaster fabrial can transform the user himself. I wonder if this is an issue for Lightweavers and Elsecallers. Also, I'm glad I was correct that the "living statue" glimpse had something to do with Transformation.

I'm kinda sad that someone downvoted my thread-starting post. Was it because I didn't put some stuff in spoiler tags? I thought the title of the thread was enough of a warning. Anyway, I already added spoiler tags there to prevent further downvoting.

Edit: Thanks to whomever upvoted to cancel out the downvote! I'll try to be more careful next time.

Edited March 9, 2014 by skaa