Is this a good idea?

[Maelstrom he/him]

Is it wrong that I want to see this?

When the series gets farther along, perhaps in era 3 or 4, the government passes a law that allows the elderly to donate their allomatic powers to science? So allomancers or feruchemists consent to being spiked at the end of their lives and allow their powers to live on after them? That would allow scientists to experiment with the powers and for compounders to be created easily. Would that be too inhumane?

[Maelstrom he/him]

So sorry! I don't know why this posted twice! Please use this one.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

I'd probably consider it a little more inhumane than donating organs, since Hemalurgy is.. violent. But donating to science is probably alright in my opinion, and maybe in Harmony's opinion too.

The real inhumane bit is that without Spook's book(or Kelsier/Marsh), they'd have to experiment to relearn bind points. Not a fan of Hemalurgic laboratories, and given how little progress the Inquisitors made over the previous millennia... they need that book

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

It’s more humane than some RL methods of legal killing, especially if the donor is under anesthesia. It could also be a viable method for executions; at least it would be quick, unlike ‘lethal’ injections which can leave criminals in pain for hours. 

Since some organ donations are actually done while the donor is in a vegetative state, which has its own set of thorny moral issues, it’s arguably less invasive too. 

So I’d be fine with this as long as there is a LOT of regulation,because the potential for misuse is high. I suspect people would be more likely to request spiking so their family could inherit the ability instead of donating to science. Bloodmakers/Thugs would have the bonus option of donating to the sick.

I wonder if in future Scadrial spiking a donor/receiver is done under anesthetic? It would certainly make it easier... I suspect the Southerners may know some bind points.

It may also be non-lethal; give the donor a gold medallion, spike him while he’s healing and he’ll regrow the damaged spiritweb. The only issue is that this would be expensive, but I could easily see the wealthy doing this.

The actual opinions would vary widely, of course. I think the Survivorists would be against it, except maybe for executing criminals and individual cases of non-lethal inheritance. Pathians would probably disapprove but allow it. Sliverists would be the most likely to approve. Not certain about the South or non-religious/other religious groups. Probably extensive variation, just like in real life.

[Yata he/him]

The only issue with this is ethic for the point of view of damaging the soul of someone.

That is far Beyond of the organs donor stuff that happen here. Based in the belief, you are butchering the intimate and eternal part of your beloved one

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

That’s where personal belief comes in. Think Nalthis and Breath. 

[Yata he/him]

20 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

That’s where personal belief comes in. Think Nalthis and Breath. 

Yeah and in this case is still worse, because in the Breath case, you could see that the people is still himself as drab. While in Hemalurgy, the people mostly dies and when they (rarelly) don't die...the Spiritual Trauma will change them deeply

[The Sovereign]

On 12/25/2017 at 0:26 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I'd probably consider it a little more inhumane than donating organs, since Hemalurgy is.. violent messy.

Fixed that for you per my pal Marsh's words.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

The idea is that these are people who are dying/going to die anyway. And we know it damages the spirit web; it may or may not damage the soul. And what about people who don’t even believe in immortal souls?

[Yata he/him]

21 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The idea is that these are people who are dying/going to die anyway. And we know it damages the spirit web; it may or may not damage the soul. And what about people who don’t even believe in immortal souls?

There aren't people like that on Scadrial I assume, when you could talk to Harmony and you know from direct experience that people remains around after death (kelsier as example).
I assume someone could not believe in the immortal soul (I am one of this type of person) but Scadrial's situation makes really hard to follow the real world logic

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Kell is widely held to be a special case. Most people don’t talk to Harmony either. (Wax is a special case.) And some people would argue that those deserving of the death penalty deserve such a fate.

And being spiked does not seem to prevent people from going Beyond. The Spirit web remains long after the person has left the three realms.

[Yata he/him]

33 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kell is widely held to be a special case. Most people don’t talk to Harmony either. (Wax is a special case.) And some people would argue that those deserving of the death penalty deserve such a fate.

I am not arguing with your logic, simply Kelsier (also if he was a special case) shows there is something beyond the physical death. Kelsier did all he did, but the premise of his post mortem's actions was "there was something that remaines". I also agree with Harmony not speaking directly with a lot of people (to be more precise, he speaks with tons of people, but they don't believe he is actually an external voice) but his Words of Fondations and his cult is hardly about spread lies.

37 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And being spiked does not seem to prevent people from going Beyond. The Spirit web remains long after the person has left the three realms.

Actually we don't know this and we can't actually know this. Be an Hemalurgy's victim means your Cognitive Timeframe is littler than usual, so your transition is really fast (we have a WoB about).

By the way, I never proposed a Spiked guy is denied the Beyond (if it's a thing at all) simply that you are ripping apart the essence who in theory will survive in the afterlife. This could have ramification for the guy, maybe he will suffer or be a weird being....we don't know.

I assume it's not the case, but I could see someone less "expert" about the Realmatic than our to questioning this. We have a Brandon's explaination, they will need some tests, but testing the Beyond is impossible and what they could theoretically see could be misguiding

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Which is where a lot comes down to religion. Some RL groups don’t allow postmortem donations. Others do. The more modern society gets, and the further from the Catascande, the more likely it is that opinions and beliefs will change.

I don’t think Kell’s survival necessarily plays a role in this debate. To give an example: In Jewish theology Abraham was born a eunuch. Just because a miracle happened and he became fertile later doesn’t mean the rabbis allowed other Eunuchs to wed.

The exact mechanism of Kell’s survival isn’t known or important to most people. I doubt it will make any difference in an individual’s decision, or in the laws that are formed around Hemalurgy. (Though id expect someone inworld to bring up the argument.)

I don’t think the Sliverists would have an issue with spikes or spiking. Survivorists probably would And Pathians would discourage it. Ultimately we’ll have to wait and see.

And no one really knows what, if anything, is Beyond. Kell thought there was nothing.  Others disagreed.

[Fourth Of The Night]

I'm totally down for this, honestly. Imagine how powerful a spike that's been passed down through the generations would get? Sure, it wouldn't be put through a metalborn every time, but eventually, given enough time...

[Elerubard]

37 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Which is where a lot comes down to religion. Some RL groups don’t allow postmortem donations. Others do. The more modern society gets, and the further from the Catascande, the more likely it is that opinions and beliefs will change.

I don’t think Kell’s survival necessarily plays a role in this debate. To give an example: In Jewish theology Abraham was born a eunuch. Just because a miracle happened and he became fertile later doesn’t mean the rabbis allowed other Eunuchs to wed.

The exact mechanism of Kell’s survival isn’t known or important to most people. I doubt it will make any difference in an individual’s decision, or in the laws that are formed around Hemalurgy. (Though id expect someone inworld to bring up the argument.)

I don’t think the Sliverists would have an issue with spikes or spiking. Survivorists probably would And Pathians would discourage it. Ultimately we’ll have to wait and see.

And no one really knows what, if anything, is Beyond. Kell thought there was nothing.  Others disagreed.

Ah, but would the Survivorists' opinions change if it became common knowledge that Kelsier was, probably, given physical form again with Hemalurgy?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 12/28/2017 at 9:39 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And we know it damages the spirit web; it may or may not damage the soul.

Your Spiritweb is your Spiritual Component/Aspect. Wouldn't your Spiritual Aspect be your soul?

5 hours ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

I'm totally down for this, honestly. Imagine how powerful a spike that's been passed down through the generations would get? Sure, it wouldn't be put through a metalborn every time, but eventually, given enough time...

As the one who posited something similar (spike recharging) in the Ultimate List, I'll mention that we don't actually know if that would work or not.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Depends on whether or not you believe the soul is above the three realms, part of the three, or even exists beyond a religious concept. The spirit web sticks around after the Cognitive self has passed Beyond, so I wouldn’t consider it the soul. But someone else might. A lot comes down to ‘what is the soul?’ and there are more answers to that than I can count.

We’ll have to see what happens to Survivorism once the North learns the truth of the Sovreign. We could get anything from a fusion of Northern and Southern faiths to a religious war. Most likely (considering Survivorism is an AU of Catholicism) we’ll see a schism in the Church and end up with a lot of variations. Either way, as someone who loves history, I’m eagerly awaiting this!