theory Parshendi Origins Theory

[TomR]

It says gods here, who where the Parshendi gods originally. I don't for one moment believe that it was Odium and/or the Unmade. Even if those are the ones that answered their preyers in order to use them for for destruction.

 

"Our gods were born splinters of a soul,

Of one who seeks to take control,

Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite."

 

Sounds like the Parshendi gods are Splinters of Odium to me, so I'm thinking they are Voidspren and the Unmade specifically.

 

The most interesting part for me is the Unmade. Just what are they? They cause death rattles and Thrill, so, are they spren? Are *they* perhaps, Adonalsium spren that broke when he shattered?

 

I think they're a counterpoint not to the Heralds but to the Honorblades (which I'm assuming are also splinters of Honor). 10 larger Splinters of Odium that take the form of spren. Since Parshendi can bond with spren, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Unmade can bond with Parshendi (or maybe even humans, who knows) to become more of a physical threat. Blightwind once ripped the roof off a building, but while the Unmade are still around, they haven't been doing things like that recently, so either some of them are trapped or they require a bond to fully manifest.

 

Spren are pieces of Shards though.  Unless they are a side affect of Adonalsium's past on the planet.  Either way, it seems wrong that the Spren would predate Shardic influence on the planet...  They are clearly tied to the shards and their magic system.  I don't have any better answers though. 

 

I wouldn't say that all spren are pieces of Shards. We know the nahel spren are a mixture of Honor and Cultivation, and it seems a safe bet that Voidspren have some Odium in them. However, the other spren may just be Cognitive entities without a direct Shardic connection. If they have a general tie to Shards, I think it may be something to do with a change made to Shadesmar and/or the Highstorms letting them manifest shadows in the Physial Realm.

Edited March 9, 2014 by TomR

[Vortaan he/him]

Certain insects have greenish blood. Are they from a different planet than us? They can also have clear blood. Does that mean they're from a different planet than the other insects?

 

No, but they are certainly on a dramatically different evolutionary path. I don't see large apex predators like chasmfiends, herd creatures like chulls, and smaller predators like axehounds all naturally evolving from a different phylum than the large sentient creatures. If they all have carapace and the other similarities that people have noticed, why would they have different blood?

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Notice the second part. Insects, not even a phylum, can have blood colors ranging from green, to yellow, to transparent and without any color at all. I don't see why the same couldn't apply to Rosharan fauna, which vary just as greatly as insects.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Very interesting!  However I do disagree with one thing.  I think listeners and Nahel spren could bond it just isn't as attractive an option as bonding with humans.  The song compares bonding to listeners and humans as "broth" and "meat" respectively which implies while both can be "eaten" one has a more attractive taste.  That is why the nahel spren not bonding to the listeners is such a betrayal, they could if they chose but instead they bonded to the humans, the newcomers rather than the indigenous listeners.

[zandi she/her]

Very interesting!  However I do disagree with one thing.  I think listeners and Nahel spren could bond it just isn't as attractive an option as bonding with humans.  The song compares bonding to listeners and humans as "broth" and "meat" respectively which implies while both can be "eaten" one has a more attractive taste.  That is why the nahel spren not bonding to the listeners is such a betrayal, they could if they chose but instead they bonded to the humans, the newcomers rather than the indigenous listeners.

 

 

That's an interesting interpretation as well. Hmmm. I like how it provides added weight for them to see the spren as betraying them and they may view humans as co-betrayers with the spren. It adds a jealousy component.  It also gives them more reason to want to accept the stormspren. Perhaps the storm form of Odium provides a more Nahel-bond like symbiosis and that makes it more attractive or satisfying- they miss that level of bonding. Will have to think on it more. 

[Jimmy moon]

One piece of evidence that I feel points towards humans coming from somewhere else: Axehounds. As Wit pointed out, where did the 'hound' come from? If humans originated on a different shardworld (one that has dogs), it would be natural for them to name the caninesque crustaceans they found on Roshar axehounds.

[Wrath]

One piece of evidence that I feel points towards humans coming from somewhere else: Axehounds. As Wit pointed out, where did the 'hound' come from? If humans originated on a different shardworld (one that has dogs), it would be natural for them to name the caninesque crustaceans they found on Roshar axehounds.

 

That, along with a couple of other things, is why I figured that humans were not native to Roshar even before I knew about this here Cosmere deal.

 

My guess would be that Cultivation has been on Roshar longer than Honour, and she's responsible for the change in the rules that allows for spren. Not that she created all the spren or that they're all of her - we know that's definitely not true - but from what I understand Shards can change some of the ways things work for their planets beyond stuff like altering the physical realm.

 

It's possible that the reason that Roshar is so messed up is that it has been subject to multiple colonisations by Shards and their pets. Maybe the crustacean species are the only true natives and the Listeners were brought to Roshar by Cultivation, then Odium and Honour/humanity came later, possibly separately

[HydrogenAlpha he/him]

I agree with WeiryWriter that parshendi are able to bond with Nahel spren. It was heavily implied in the interludes that Eshonai would have been a surgebinder if she hadn't taken on Stormform. There's this cometlike spren that is following her around constantly, like Syl followed Kal in the early chapters of TWoK. 
Addionally I think that every flashback character is gonna end up being a surgebinder - Kal, Shallan and Dalinar already are KR, Szeth has got Nightblood ( WOB says it works like a Honorblade ) and I suspect that he either ends up with his own spren or dead. The only one that's left is Eshonai who alone can just summon a little breeze and jump pretty high.. not very intimidating.

 

Edit: Even if Stormform would grant more abilities, I think it mainly a group-thing.. to summon the Everstorm. Not a real threat to Kaladin, who convincingly wrecked Szeth with ease.

Edited April 6, 2014 by HydrogenAlpha

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

@Wrath

Some quotes.

Q: Are spren visible on Roshar because Cultivation is present?

A: Cultivation has a lot to do with the spren but the spren...would...it's hard to separate them, but some spren did exist before Cultivation arrived.

So yes, Cultivation has a lot to do with spren, but they predate her. Of course, we kinda knew that anyway what with there being Adonspren and all.

Q: Are the Parshendi of Odium?

A: Not originally.

Q: Are the Parshendi of Cultivation?

A: Not originally.

Q: Are the Parshendi of Honor?

A: No.

So it's pretty clear that Parshendi are a native species that evolved naturally alongside the other Rosharan wildlife.

LANCE ALVEIN

Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question. They came together.

So this is the timeline, as I understand it.

1. Adonalsium comes to Roshar. He leaves some of his power behind as spren, and kickstarts the Rosharan wildife before going over to Yolen. He probably created the Highstorms too, though those could have developed on their own.

2. Listeners and the rest of the modern wildlife evolve, bonding with the Adonspren and living in wonderful peace, harmony, murderous continent spanning Hypercanes, etc.

3. Adonalsium shatters, and Cultivation and Honor, being lovers and all, shack up together on Braize/the Tranquelline Halls. They create an Earth-like world, with lion, tigers, and bears, oh my, as well as humans.

4. Odium is a jealous chull, so he crashes the party and forces H&C over to Roshar, making Braize his own base.

5. H&C's refugees make camp in Shinovar, aka stealing the best land from the Parshendi. They also steal the spren, as well as make some more of their own. This really pisses the Parshendi off, so they pull a Vader and go off into the dark side. Violence ensues.

Edited April 6, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Wrath]

Ah, thanks. Though I still think that means that Cultivation changed the rules for Roshar to cause spren to appear the way they do.

 

My theory would go like this: spren pre-date Cultivation as inhabitants of the Cognitive Realm, but she changed the rules on Roshar to increase their ability to manifest in the Physical Realm.

 

I suspect as well that rather than Shinovar being the best land it was transformed by Honour to resemble the previous home of the humans. Roshar requires a bit of a learning curve after all. And since it's Honour's place rather than Cultivation that's why spren don't appear as much there.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I do agree with you here. I suspect that while the Parshendi and the Horneaters, being in the Cognitive Realm more, would be able to see the pre-Cultivation spren, the humans wouldn't, so Cultivation tinkered with them a little to make them visible to all.

But then why would the East worship Cultivation rather than Honor if it was Honor's place? And the whole ecosystem and class structure of Shinovar is as Cultivation-y as it gets. You may be right on the area being artificial though, but that would mean the entire mountain range sheltering Shinovar would have to be called into existence. Still easily within a Shard's power I suppose.

re: no spren in Shinovar

This may be because they don't have Highstorms. For the spren to manifest should take energy. Without Stormlight, there is none, so all the spren would be invisible in the Cognitive Realm.

[Wrath]

I do agree with you here. I suspect that while the Parshendi and the Horneaters, being in the Cognitive Realm more, would be able to see the pre-Cultivation spren, the humans wouldn't, so Cultivation tinkered with them a little to make them visible to all.

But then why would the East worship Cultivation rather than Honor if it was Honor's place? And the whole ecosystem and class structure of Shinovar is as Cultivation-y as it gets. You may be right on the area being artificial though, but that would mean the entire mountain range sheltering Shinovar would have to be called into existence. Still easily within a Shard's power I suppose.

re: no spren in Shinovar

This may be because they don't have Highstorms. For the spren to manifest should take energy. Without Stormlight, there is none, so all the spren would be invisible in the Cognitive Realm.

 

That's what I thought before I learnt about the Cosmere, but I think the flaw in that would be that Highstorms are weaker in some areas than in others but as far as I know there's never been anything about spren being less common in those places.

 

The thing about Listeners not being originally of Cultivation suggests that at some point they were claimed by Cultivation, and humans are specifically known as the "sons/daughters of Honour", so to me it makes sense that the place best suited for human life is also the place where Honour is strongest. Where you're worshipped doesn't necessarily correlate to where you've expended the most of your power. And wasn't the Old Magic the religion that was followed by all of Roshar before the rise of Vorinism? We know that's linked to Cultivation via the Nightwatcher. In fact looking at the map of Roshar it seems like the Nightwatcher lives pretty much in the middle.

 

Also in what may be a total coincidence, we know that most of the Honourblades are kept in Shinovar.

 

All just theories of course. And like I said, I'm new to the Cosmere so this is probably all massively wrong.

[Shaggai]

I'm not sure, but at some point doesn't Eshonai mention that the Listeners remember highstorms existing before the Stormfather? This would seem to imply that the Listeners lived on Roshar a really, really long time ago - before Honor even came to Roshar. So that's about fifteen thousand years or so at the least, assuming Honor and the humans arrived around the same time. And if they're that old, they probably are native. As for the whole blood thing, have we ever seen the blood of a non-Listener parshman? Perhaps the spren bonding changes the color of the blood, in the same way that it changes eye color in humans.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Shaggai

[Wrath]

There's also the possibility that Cultivation altered them and that's when their blood changed colour.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I'm not sure, but at some point doesn't Eshonai mention that the Listeners remember highstorms existing before the Stormfather? This would seem to imply that the Listeners lived on Roshar a really, really long time ago - before Honor even came to Roshar. So that's about fifteen thousand years or so at the least, assuming Honor and the humans arrived around the same time. And if they're that old, they probably are native. As for the whole blood thing, have we ever seen the blood of a non-Listener parshman? Perhaps the spren bonding changes the color of the blood, in the same way that it changes eye color in humans.

Yeah, they're called the Ancient Ones for a reason. Since we know Adonalsium was on Roshar at some point before the Shattering, and left some of its power there as spren, it's very possible that they even predate Yolen and humanity.