theory Skybreaker Theory

[Vortaan he/him]

I like this. It makes me question the role the Skybreakers had in the organization of Radiants. Were they the equivalent of internal affairs? As for Darkness being one, seems a stretch. He's hunting down Surgebinders so that the Desolation doesn't come back. If the Skybreakers continued for two millennia, they'd need to recruit... and that would mean they are Surgebinding. I suspect a different motivation from him, but I'm not sure yet what it is. Need to let the book sink in a bit more.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Maybe they are recruited, but either forbidden or prevented from Surgebinding? Or perhaps they are perhaps entirely unmagical fanatics following the code of magical fanatics from ages before?

[Vortaan he/him]

Maybe they are recruited, but either forbidden or prevented from Surgebinding? Or perhaps they are perhaps entirely unmagical fanatics following the code of magical fanatics from ages before?

 

I wonder. They are using the dead-spren Blades, not true Radiant blades, or at least we can assume that if Shallan's brother was indeed a Skybreaker. Also, we need a better word for the dead-spren Blades. We also don't see anything like Surgebinding from Darkness, and Nalan used a fabrial, not Surgebinding. Hmm. They'd still need to bond spren though to be Radiants, wouldn't they? Considering how instinctual other Surgebinding has proven to be, I doubt they could stop entirely...

[Swimmingly he/him]

Shall we call live blades Sprenblades, dead ones Shardblades?

[Vortaan he/him]

Shall we call live blades Sprenblades, dead ones Shardblades?

 

Not sure I like that, as they are both Shardblades. Maybe Radiantblades and Sprenblades?

[Swimmingly he/him]

Liveblades and Deadblades?

[Vortaan he/him]

Liveblades and Deadblades?

 

Oathblades and Brokenblades?

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

Not sure I like that, as they are both Shardblades. Maybe Radiantblades and Sprenblades?

I think this sounds the best we have been using Radiantblades, for the blades of the radiants, and we have also been using shardblades, for the blades used by the shardbearers, now we just know the difference.

[Kaurne]

The Skybreakers didn't break their oaths because they see holding to oaths - even wrong oaths - as the most important thing one can do. Nalan calls it the only true beauty in all the world.

I'll expand on this theory a bit later, but here's the gist of it.

 

Honor is an idea, but an idea with many facets. Consequently, the ten different forms of spren all have different ideas about what is 'right'. This is why Syl desn't like Cryptics; they have very different ideas of what Honor actually means. The SKybreakers have a different one, which holds to honor as in 'honoring commitments' - they don't break their oaths, at all.

 

One of the chapter headings supports this by talking about a confrontation between Windrunners and Skybreakers over how to judge some civilians. From what we've seen of the two, their Ideals seem to be very opposed to each other, despite sharing a surge, which might be, symbolically, why Kaladin and Szeth are the ones who had the confrontation and seemed so opposed to each other; the orders (neither of which they were technically part of at that point) were opposed, so they are opposed.

 

When Dalinar is commanded to 'unite them' he isn't being commanded to unit humanity - that's the easy part. He's being commanded to unite the Orders of the Knights Radiant, to ensure they work together to face the True Desolation, because it is only through unity that humanity will survive. That's why he's a Bondsmith and why the chapter heading talked about the Bondsmiths being 3 in number but important. His job is to unify the nine other Orders, to forge bonds between them and work around their conflicting ideals of what is 'right' so that victory can be achieved.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Kaurne

[Everstorm]

My first thoughts when I read about the order which held their oaths was that it belonged to Taln. All the others basically got instructions from their Heralds to walk away, while the order of Taln still believed in the old Oaths, and hence continued to fight.

[Luke.spence]

Not to continue with the Vasher point, but that makes total sense. Also, about the breaths he needs to live, they seem to transfer just fine onto Roshar since Hoid mentions having "perfect pitch", meaning that he has control of breaths on Roshar. Now, this may be a Hoid perk, not available to Vasher, but I think it's at least likely.

[Aminar]

My first thoughts when I read about the order which held their oaths was that it belonged to Taln. All the others basically got instructions from their Heralds to walk away, while the order of Taln still believed in the old Oaths, and hence continued to fight.

Regrettably unlikely. The Radiant's quit thousands of years after the Heralds broke the oathpact. That and wasn't he a Stoneward?

[marianmi]

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and fl ee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine

 

So, how do you interpret this?

[Vortaan he/him]

So, how do you interpret this?

 

Skybreakers going into deep cover to prevent further Desolations. I think the Recreance occurred because the Radiants learned that the Heralds lied to them. Nine orders saw their gods lying to them as perhaps the final straw, since instead of heroes fighting to save the world they had become more of a police force, and an increasingly ineffective one. The Skybreakers, however, took this knowledge and went underground, holding to their commitment to prevent Desolations in the only way they could figure: eliminating Surgebinders in the mistaken belief that a surge in Surgebinders was the cause of a Desolation, instead of the other way around. Once Nalan returns to lead them, they become much more effective. The question is rather was Nalan worldhopping in the interim, or was he biding his time, waiting for the stresses on the Radiants to break them apart so he could claim his order and still try to uphold the Oathpact without actually upholding it? Drawing a parallel to Szeth, I wonder if he is holding to his commitment in a way that definitely harms the world, and is in some way justifying it by holding to the literal oath, rather than the spirit of it.

[Seloun]

I don't think the Skybreakers lead by Darkness/Nin are the actual Radiant Skybreakers. We see none of the surgebinding or the radiant shardblades you'd expect from actual surgebinders, and the fact they have no problem handling dead shardblades seem to indicate that they don't hear the shardblades, either (Lift's scene and, if you accept he was one, Helaran). Darkness's surgebinding is pretty clearly from an Honorblade (presumably the one unaccounted for by the Shin + Taln's).

 

It seems more likely that the modern Skybreakers are corrupted versions of the original, without any real connection to the original besides the name, though still led by the Herald. There's really no reason to think that Darkness's group (or Darkness himself) is anything like the Radiant Skybreakers; the only 'sure' way we've seen of definitively living the ideal of the different orders is through their associated spren.

 

I don't think just finding out the Heralds lied to them would be sufficient to cause the Recreance. In particular, whatever happened has to have been so compelling that every single honorspren-bounded Radiant (who are practically by definition among the most honorable individuals on the planet) would be willing to kill their spren - not just disband the organization, or do something to release the spren (presumably there's a way - or every time a Radiant dies, you get dead spren; that's potentially a _lot_ of shards...) or otherwise just walk away, but explicitly kill their spren. It's also worth noting that the spren-based Knights aren't really directly related to the Heralds; the relationship is because it's the nature of spren to copy what already exists. Even if they found out the Heralds are not the exemplars of virtue, I don't see why that would take away from the fact that they're still doing good works.

[Moogle]

I don't think the Skybreakers lead by Darkness/Nin are the actual Radiant Skybreakers. We see none of the surgebinding or the radiant shardblades you'd expect from actual surgebinders, and the fact they have no problem handling dead shardblades seem to indicate that they don't hear the shardblades, either (Lift's scene and, if you accept he was one, Helaran). Darkness's surgebinding is pretty clearly from an Honorblade (presumably the one unaccounted for by the Shin + Taln's).

 

What makes you think Helaran wasn't a Radiant with a Radiantblade? I don't think we can rule that out quite yet.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Moogle

[marianmi]

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and fl ee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine

 

* what act of great villainy?

* what fighting was intense? was it vs. voidbringers, or vs. themselves?

* after they retreated? who?

* 2000 assaulted the ones that retreated => 2000 radiants? or 2000 attacked the radiants?

* what membership?

* 2000 were 9 orders?

 

My interpretation: 2000 radiants attacked a certain... society? ... that they were fighting before, but who withdrew from the fight.

The radiants decided to attack them after they withdrew, then to abandon their arms and flee. We've seen Windrunners and stonewards do that. Who were they fighting? Other radiants?

 

 

 

 

 

What makes you think Helaran wasn't a Radiant with a Radiantblade? I don't think we can rule that out quite yet.

 

Szeth has no radiantblade. Rather Nalan is recruiting people and giving them objects of power, not spren.

We see Darkness telling the guy that killed Gawx to give himself up to the law; that guy thought he was above azish law - did not look like he had a spren, but rather Nalan was interpreting law for him.

Edited March 6, 2014 by marianmi

[Seloun]

What makes you think Helaran wasn't a Radiant with a Radiantblade? I don't think we can rule that out quite yet.

 

Well, it's probably true we can't absolutely rule this out for sure, but we know that his blade didn't glow like the other Radiant blades we've seen. It's also not clear if a Radiant blade becomes a dead blade if the Radiant dies (if that's the case, it seems like there should be _tons_ of shards lying around around long before the Recreance - or maybe some way to recycle them).

 

I don't remember if there's an explicit description of Helaran's blade with or without a gem offhand, but we know that dead blades all have the gem for the binding; if Helaran's was a real Radiant blade presumably it wouldn't have the gem attachment, which would imply that Amaram must know how to make the blades bindable (not impossible given how much information he has) which in turn probably would mean he could recognize the implications of Helaran's blade; all in all it just seems like the evidence tends to point to Helaran's blade being a dead shardblade. None of the other members of Darkness's group seem to have any unusual shardblades, either.

[Judsing99]

Darkness did have an unusual vast knowledge of surgebinding.  As Lift is sliding everywhere, he comes to the conclusion she is an Edgedancer, saying, "It appears you are an Edgedancer... I had wondered which of the two you would be.  This shows he has some inside knowledge to surgebinding, knowing it comes in pairs that signify different orders.  He then relates, 

“They were once a glorious order,” Darkness said, walking her down the hallway. Everyone ignored them, focused instead on Gawx. “Where you blunder, they were elegant things of beauty. They could ride the thinnest rope at speed, dance across rooftops, move through a battlefield like a ribbon on the wind.”

 

Finally, it makes sense he belongs to sky breakers as justice is the only thing he cares about.  He also is shown to have a shard blade here.

 

“Why...why do you hunt me?” (Lift speaking)

“In the name of justice.”

“There are tons of people who do wrong things,” she said. She had to force out every word. Talking was hard. Thinking was hard. So tired. “You...you coulda hunted big crime bosses, murderers. You chose me instead. Why?”

“Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return Desolation to this world.” His words were so cold. “What you are must be stopped.”

“I saved him,” Lift said. “I did something good, didn’t I?”

“Goodness is irrelevant,” Darkness said. His Shardblade dropped into his fingers.

[aheerema he/him]

[Off Topic] Re: Zahel and breath

 

But how would he get Breath to stay alive? Is he using Stormlight instead, somehow? That would definetly give him motivation; the morality of consuming Stormlight isn't a problem in the same way Breath is.

 

I was under the impression that by suppressing their divine breath, the Returned did not require their weekly refreshed breath.

 

With that being said, Stormlight and Breath are both forms of Investiture, so Stormlight may fill the requirements for Vasher/Zahel.

[Moogle]

This is something of a thread necromancy, but I was rereading and found this quote:

 

 

They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl’s brother, before his death.

 

Taravangian believes Shallan is a Surgebinder and that her brother trained her.

 

This makes it incredibly likely that the Skybreakers are actual Surgebinders, Helaran included.

[Seloun]

 

Taravangian believes Shallan is a Surgebinder and that her brother trained her.

 

This makes it incredibly likely that the Skybreakers are actual Surgebinders, Helaran included.

 

I was wondering about that passage too, but the simplest explanation in my opinion is that you don't have to be a Surgebinder to train a Surgebinder. Simply knowing about what Surgebinders can do, their combinations, etc. would be incredibly helpful, compared to Kaladin and Shallan's trying to figure things out from scratch.

[darkanimereal1]

But how would he get Breath to stay alive? Is he using Stormlight instead, somehow? That would definetly give him motivation; the morality of consuming Stormlight isn't a problem in the same way Breath is.

 

I mean, doesn't Zahel say something along the lines of "There's something I can get much easier here than from where I came from"? He could be talking about using Stormlight as some kind of substitute. It could also be related to the fact that, despite Szeth not having Breaths, he has Nightblood.

 

What makes you think Helaran wasn't a Radiant with a Radiantblade? I don't think we can rule that out quite yet.

 

Well, we know that Syl tells Kaladin later in TWoK that it's a good thing he didn't take Helaran's blade. Again, if I'm remembering correctly, doesn't she say that there's something wrong with it? At the time, she doesn't know what it is (she's still regaining her memory). Most likely it wasn't that he was a Radiant/Radiant in training, but instead that he had been given a "dead" shardblade. There's a possibility that he could have had an honorblade, since Syl also tells Kaladin not to mess with Jez's blade. However, if that were the case, that would mean that Amaram now has an honorblade, and I really haven't seen any evidence to suggest this. Besides, there are only three honorblades currently floating around (as far as Szeth knows as of ten years ago, but still).

[marianmi]

I was wondering about that passage too, but the simplest explanation in my opinion is that you don't have to be a Surgebinder to train a Surgebinder. Simply knowing about what Surgebinders can do, their combinations, etc. would be incredibly helpful, compared to Kaladin and Shallan's trying to figure things out from scratch.

 

 

But how did they know Shallan was a surgebinder? Mr. T saw her almost die from simple poison. Nothing a bit of stormlight would not be able to heal. 

 

I guess this is also a good question - can stormlight heal poison? if so, why was Jasnah constantly soulcasting her food? Not to be seen glowing, or she does not know about stormlight healing?

[Seloun]

But how did they know Shallan was a surgebinder? Mr. T saw her almost die from simple poison. Nothing a bit of stormlight would not be able to heal. 

 

The quotation seems to indicate that they only decided she was a Surgebinder after she arrived at the Shattered Plains.

 

Actually, re-reading the passage more carefully, it's not clear that Mr. T has already decided she's a Surgebinder. The quote says they 'already' hypothesized she had been trained, while Adrotagia appears to be offering Shallan as a possible Surgebinder rather than a confirmed Surgebinder.

 

It could be read either way, but when Szeth talks about a Surgebinder at the beginning, Mr. T immediately assumes it's Jasnah, despite the fact that they know Shallan is at the Shattered Plains and Jasnah is (presumed) dead. This seems like an odd assumption if they know Shallan is a Surgebinder and is definitively not dead. This may imply the 'training' discussed might be as an agent rather than a Surgebinder specifically.