theory [OB] Adolin and Shallan will not last

[Vissy]

I only remember that he said he's plan them both at once, just like how he is doing Apocalypse Guard. And then write them back to back. Honestly don't remember where, I follow him on Twitter and on Reddit and a lot of places so... he could've said it anywhere.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Wait what!!!! Is this true? Where did you hear it?!

I think there is a misunderstanding. He is finishing both outlines in 2018. The writing between 4 and 5 will still take time.

Book 4 writing will commence in 2019 with a tentative release in 2020 (or 2021 )

https://brandonsanderson.com/state-of-the-sanderson-2017/

Edited December 21, 2017 by SLNC

[Vissy]

Yes, I don't mean that he will write them both at the same time. But that he will plan both of them in one go and then write them one after another. Unless that last part is a misunderstanding too? 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Vissy

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Yes, I don't mean that he will write them both at the same time. But that he will plan both of them in one go and then write them one after another. Unless that last part is a misunderstanding too? 

Hm. He says in this State of the Sanderson, that he wants to split his writing time between Stormlight and something else. I wouldn't be surprised, if he'd do something else after book 4 first.

Quote

My current projection is that I’ll spend half of my time writing Stormlight, and half of it doing other things. (I spoke last year about just how big an undertaking a Stormlight book is–and why I can’t write them back to back.) I realize that many of you would prefer to have only Stormlight, but that would drive me insane–and drive the series into the ground.

https://brandonsanderson.com/state-of-the-sanderson-2017/#mainprojects

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Hm. He says in this State of the Sanderson, that he wants to split his writing time between Stormlight and something else. I wouldn't be surprised, if he'd do something else after book 4 first.

Stop crushing hopes and dreams   At least the fact both will be fully outlined has to mean the wait will be a little less, right?!?

[GoddessIMHO]

Perhaps there is one thing we can agree on. Whether you agree with the current state of affairs or not; Brandon has created characters and situations that have left readers passionate about the book and what happened.

I agree with whoever said that it would have been nice if the Dalinar/Navani romance had generated more heat. I actually think they were supposed to but even the scenes where Dalinar's feeling for her are stated I just wasn't feeling it.

[MonsterMetroid]

6 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I actually think they were supposed to but even the scenes where Dalinar's feeling for her are stated I just wasn't feeling it.

yeah this is a really good point I never felt it either. I just went from "Navani seems like some sort of temptress" to "well I guess they are a thing now" to finally "ok Navani and fabrials seem pretty interesting I guess she can stick around"

[Vissy]

48 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Perhaps there is one thing we can agree on. Whether you agree with the current state of affairs or not; Brandon has created characters and situations that have left readers passionate about the book and what happened.

I agree with whoever said that it would have been nice if the Dalinar/Navani romance had generated more heat. I actually think they were supposed to but even the scenes where Dalinar's feeling for her are stated I just wasn't feeling it.

I think the reason for this is that we never get the same visceral feeling and identification with Dalinar's character that we get with Shallan or (especially, I think) Kaladin. We watch Kaladin rise up from the worst moments of his life, from slavery no less, all the while Dalinar deals with no lesser problems though from a much more comfortable position. Shallan is discovering deep truths about the world with Jasnah (parshmen are Voidbringers) and experiences a lot of trauma, albeit most of it we see through flashbacks.  

Kaladin and Shallan are both also very identifiable characters, especially Kaladin, who's written as the common peoples' hero, is battling with depression and is doing something exceptional by even standing up and fighting. I think this is just as planned™ for Sanderson. 

[MonsterMetroid]

2 hours ago, Vissy said:

I think the reason for this is that we never get the same visceral feeling and identification with Dalinar's character that we get with Shallan or (especially, I think) Kaladin

Hmm we are starting to get way off topic but this does make me wonder if I would have a better feeling for Dalinars character If I was a widower with kids and an old flame came around. Does this limit how much I can relate to Dalinar?

[Vissy]

I don't know how many people can relate with someone whose brain was fundamentally, supernaturally altered from the brain of a sociopathic, conscience-lacking mass murderer into a well-meaning but iron-fisted tyrant. I don't think he's meant to be very relatable.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Vissy

[MonsterMetroid]

Yeah... you are probably right haha.

[insert_anagram_here]

15 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Hmm we are starting to get way off topic but this does make me wonder if I would have a better feeling for Dalinars character If I was a widower with kids and an old flame came around. Does this limit how much I can relate to Dalinar?

15 hours ago, Vissy said:

I don't know how many people can relate with someone whose brain was fundamentally, supernaturally altered from the brain of a sociopathic, conscience-lacking mass murderer into a well-meaning but iron-fisted tyrant. I don't think he's meant to be very relatable.

I actually did feel Dalinar's infatuation for Navani back in WoK nonetheless. Granted it wasn't as strong as how I perceive Shallan's feelings, probably because I do project myself onto her a lot more than with Dalinar. I didn't know he was a mass murder at that point, at least it wasn't that obvious except from the fact they called him Blackthorn but I am a little older, doubting my own insanity, so that might've made him more relatable I guess.

 

[Dreamstorm]

Bringing this back from the dead because it's on point for the question I want to ask - do we have any evidence in-world or in WoB that Vorinism doesn't allow divorce?  I can't recall or find anything...  (And I'm not talking that people had unhappy marriages that didn't end, but where Brandon or a character says ending a marriage is not allowed or is deeply frowned upon in the religion.)  Thanks!

[MonsterMetroid]

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Bringing this back from the dead because it's on point for the question I want to ask - do we have any evidence in-world or in WoB that Vorinism doesn't allow divorce?  I can't recall or find anything...  (And I'm not talking that people had unhappy marriages that didn't end, but where Brandon or a character says ending a marriage is not allowed or is deeply frowned upon in the religion.)  Thanks!

I originally just made the assumption because of the way they viewed Dalinars and Navanis marriage it seemed to me to they probably didnt approve of divorce.

The only applicable WoB i could find on the matter was this: (full entry found here)

Quote

Vorin culture is concerned with oaths. Extra-marital sexuality is strictly forbidden, but homosexuality is regarded the same by most as heterosexual relationships. If the proper oaths are spoken, then the Almighty approves. (This usually means marriage, but there are certain official forms of other relationships that would allow it also.)

So we know that the Vorin take Oaths seriously and Marriage is definitely an Oath. But it will be interesting to see.

[Dreamstorm]

7 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I originally just made the assumption because of the way they viewed Dalinars and Navanis marriage it seemed to me to they probably didnt approve of divorce.

This is a good point, but I don't know if we can draw the parallels in Vorin society that we think would follow in analogous Western (earth) societies.  (For instance, strict religious societies often condemn homosexuality, but Vorinism generally accepts it per that quote.)  It's definitely something I'm pondering about how much of a parallel you can draw from the Vorin prohibition of Navani marrying (or just marrying Dalinar? - I don't remember how specific this was to her "brother") after her husband died.

10 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

So we know that the Vorin take Oaths seriously and Marriage is definitely an Oath. But it will be interesting to see.

Also a really good point, and one that is reinforced in-world by Syl's emphasis on the fact no oaths were made until marriage.  I think we definitely know breaking an oath is prohibited - so cheating or abandoning a spouse would be condemned.  But what if both parties decided they wanted to no longer have the oath be in effect or one party allowed the other party out of their oath?  The only analogy I could think of would be when our crew discussed the idea of Amaram leaving the Sadeas princedom to join Kholin.  (You swear an oath to your highprince - I don't know if this is a less "serious" oath than marriage, but I'm not sure that matters.)  Below is the quote where the group discusses Amaram defecting to Dalinar.  Kaladin is shocked this is possible, but it sounds a bit like a divorce settlement, right?  Amaram keeps his personal possessions and usually there is some sort of "alimony" paid to the party being left.

Quote

“Well, you won’t be dueling him,” Dalinar said, chuckling. He sat down on the couch, Brightness Navani settling in beside him, hand fondly on his knee. “We might have him on our side. I’ve been speaking to Highlord Amaram . . .”

“You think you can get him to secede?” the king asked.

“Is that possible?” Kaladin asked, surprised.

The lighteyes turned to him. Navani blinked, as if noticing him for the first time.

“Yes, it is possible,” Dalinar said. “Most of the territory that Amaram oversees would remain with Sadeas, but he could bring his personal land to my princedom—along with his Shards. Usually it requires a land trade with a princedom bordering the one a highlord wishes to join.”

“It hasn’t happened in over a decade,” Adolin said, shaking his head.

WoR, Ch. 22, Lights in the Storm

 

[MonsterMetroid]

7 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think we definitely know breaking an oath is prohibited - so cheating or abandoning a spouse would be condemned.  But what if both parties decided they wanted to no longer have the oath be in effect or one party allowed the other party out of their oath?

I think this would really depend on the Vorin marriage oath. We only have the one example from the stormfather (which i would quote but I dont have the ebook) but I have a feeling that was a bit unusual in script as far as alethi weddings go. If they promise "til death do us part" like many people do IRL I think it would still be breaking an oath in vorin eyes. 

11 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

The only analogy I could think of would be when our crew discussed the idea of Amaram leaving the Sadeas princedom to join Kholin.  (You swear an oath to your highprince - I don't know if this is a less "serious" oath than marriage, but I'm not sure that matters.)

This is a good point, I think this also has to do with the oath or contract that was formed. If he did swear to Always serve sadeas then yeah that seems like an oath that could be amicably bent if both parties agree. If the agreement was more "I will serve you in return you offer me protection and lands" then it would seem like an open ended contract. But this is all sepculation without being able to see what they actually swore to *Shrug*

[Dreamstorm]

4 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I think this would really depend on the Vorin marriage oath. We only have the one example from the stormfather (which i would quote but I dont have the ebook) but I have a feeling that was a bit unusual in script as far as alethi weddings go.

Navani says: "I swear it to him, and to you, and any who care to listen.  Dalinar Kholin is mine, and I am his."

Dalinar says: "I swear it likewise.  Navani Kholin is mine, and I am hers.  I love her."

It seems like the "[____] is mine, and I am his/hers" part is the pertinent part.  But as you said, this might not be typical of Vorin oaths.  We have a WoB that we will see a wedding ceremony eventually (see below), but while the questioner was asking about a Vorin Alethi ceremony, Brandon just said "wedding ceremony" so unsure if Dalinar/Navani counted or if we still have that to look forward to!

Quote

Questioner

How do Vorin Alethi get married?

Brandon Sanderson

How do what?

Questioner

Vorin Alethi get married?

Brandon Sanderson

How do they get married? I will show you a wedding ceremony eventually.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217-salt-lake-city-signing/#e7246

 

14 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I think this also has to do with the oath or contract that was formed. If he did swear to Always serve sadeas then yeah that seems like an oath that could be amicably bent if both parties agree. If the agreement was more "I will serve you in return you offer me protection and lands" then it would seem like an open ended contract.

So we do have what Elhokar swears to Dalinar when he makes(/accepts?) Dalinar highking.  This evokes the language of the marriage oath given by Dalinar and Navani (though structured a little differently) which makes me think that part of the marriage ceremony may be traditional?  As far as highprince vows, although it's not for certain, I strongly suspect these are the traditional words that one swears to his liege lord (Dalinar notes Elhokar is "kneeling as a vassal.")  Elhokar says the oath is "immutable", but if we infer this was the same oath Amaram gave Sadeas as his highprince, then it can actually be revoked.  Going through this, it makes me think that in Vorinism it is possible, though highly unusual, to get a divorce.

Quote

"Dalinar Kholin," Elhokar said in a loud voice, "I swear to you now.  There are princes and highprinces.  Why not kings and highkings?  I give you an oath, immutable and witnessed, that I accept you as my monarch.  As Alethkar is to me, I am to you."

OB, Ch. 12, Negotiations

[Bort]

On 21/12/2017 at 0:53 AM, Dreamstorm said:

While I don't contend that characters can evolve as they are written, as some point an author has to settle on how they are plotting the book, and that means your interpersonal relationships must also become settled because how those relationships fit into the plot is integral to a good book.  Perhaps this is actually the root of the Shalladin v. Shadolin debate (which I didn't realize); I didn't think it would ever be in contention that Brandon himself doesn't know the outcome!  Perhaps when Shadolin fans ignore the (IMO blatant) foreshadowing, they just believe that it doesn't matter because Brandon himself has no idea where the storyline is leading.  For me, it's very poor craftsmanship to not know where your story is going to the extent you can't properly insert or are forced to ignore earlier foreshadowing, and I have seen just the opposite level of craftsmanship from Brandon in other books.  But the perspective that there is no objective answer to Shalladin/Shadolin (because Brandon himself has no clue what's going to happen) is very enlightening as to why this question gets so heated.

While I do agree that he probably knows what's going to happen with them, I'd just like to point out that Brandon himself has said that sometimes his characters do unexpected things, and they develop in new ways he hadn't considered.

[Cosmé]

I like the theory.

While Oathbringer did brush the “Adolin killed Sadeas” plot under the rug, I still think that this is a possibility:

1. Shallan and Adolin marry, and are happy

2. Ialai becomes Highprince Sadeas now that Amaram is gone. She of course doesn’t know who killed Sadeas yet, so will still be looking

3. Now that Adolin thinks that all is forgiven, he will be much sloppier about hiding the details of what happened. So he will reveal what happened to the wrong person. Either Ialai or Taravangian gets ahold of the information (T would use it either as blackmail or drop the info to divide the Radiants)

4. Ialai learns what happens and is furious.

5. At this point, we will have Skybreakers (Szeth and any followers he has by this point) who are very insistent on the law being followed. Dalinar also has oaths to uphold. The Alethi will be furious that one of their own Highprinces did such a thing.

6. Dalinar/Jasna will be forced to punish Adolin in some way. Either exile or execution. It’s even possible that Ialai finds a way to have him killed, either through assassination or some pact with Odium. 

7. Shallan’s marriage to Adolin ends, either through Adolin’s death, or through his exile.

This follows the Gavilar-Nivani pattern pretty well, because the same fate befalls Gavilar/Adolin, and in both cases, the fact is a result of a fatal enemy they made through their own action. It in part explains why Adolin isn’t so major a character in the series long term plan, and brings a proper end to the “killed Sadeas” arc, which feels cut off in a way.

[Rainier]

2 hours ago, Cosmé said:

Ialai learns what happens and is furious.

It’s even possible that Ialai finds a way to have him killed, either through assassination or some pact with Odium. 

Shallan’s marriage to Adolin ends...through Adolin’s death

brings a proper end to the “killed Sadeas” arc, which feels cut off in a way.

For all the lack of consequences to Adolin for his murder of Sadeas, I could absolutely see Ialai exacting her revenge upon house Kholin by havin Adolin assassinated while retaining plausible deniability. We know she has assassins, and we know Jasnah has played the same game for years. Covert assassinations are typical enough for Alethi. I don't know if it will involve Radiants or Skybreakers, as I think Ialai would be more covert than that. It would also force Dalinar to deal with internal strife as he wrests with his thirst for vengeance for his son against his desire to unite all humanity in the face of the Desolation.

[Llarimar]

I don't think they're going to separate.  Sanderson usually has a pretty idealized depiction of marriage in his books.  Especially when main characters get married, it is depicted as their happily ever after - even if they experience struggles afterwards, their marriage generally remains strong.  

For example (Cosmere spoilers):

Spoiler

Sarene and Raoden in Elantris.

Siri and the Susebron in Warbreaker.

Vin and Elend in Mistborn.

Dalinar and Navani in Stormlight.  

Dalinar and Evi in Stormlight.

Wax and Steris in Mistborn.

I can think of some examples of bad marriages in his books, such as between Shallan's parents, but generally married people are strong power couples - Ialai and Sadeas, for example.  Infidelity almost never plays a role in his books.  In addition, I have constantly noticed that Sanderson has a surprisingly sympathetic view of arranged marriages in his books - the parties in arranged marriages genuinely seem to like each other and they actually fall in love, unlike the sour, unsavory depiction of arranged marriages typically seen in Western culture, where romance and courtship are so important.  In the spoiler examples given above, four of the six marriages listed were arranged marriages, and they turned out just as as well as the non-arranged ones.  Even arranged marriages like Roshone and Laral seem to work out pretty well for everyone involved.

I think it is possible that Shallan and Adolin's storyline will end in tragedy, but not because their marriage crumbles or because they decide to leave each other.  Perhaps one of them will die, or Shallan will become consumed by her demons and will lose her mind or something like that, but I don't see them breaking up.  I think that Shallan will definitely not get together with Kaladin at this point, and that Adolin will probably not cheat on Shallan (I just can't imagine Sanderson writing a plotline like that).  

[wotbibliophile]

@Llarimar On the one hand I agree that Dalinar and Evi had a good marriage in some respects. (On the good side, I think they were faithful to each other, but that is about it.) On the other hand I am shocked you list Dalinar and Evi as having a good marriage. Evi was crying and miserable the entire time.

Sadeas and Ialai also surprisingly have a good marriage. However, I think Sadeas was married when he was raping women. The timeline confuses me so maybe his rapes happened before he was married?

That Roshone and Laral have a good marriage is surprising and I find it icky. This was an arranged marriage that Sanderson could have shown did not end well for one or the other of the people involved.

ETA: Also it seems obvious that Dalinar never loved Evi.

Edited January 10, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Llarimar said:

Infidelity almost never plays a role in his books.

There are other ways a marriage can end badly, you know? In fact, infidelity is one of the more boring, more standard ways a marriage can end. Just saying.

Edited January 10, 2018 by SLNC

[Llarimar]

7 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

On the one hand I agree that Dalinar and Evi had a good marriage in some respects. (On the good side, I think they were faithful to each other, but that is about it.) On the other hand I am shocked you list Dalinar and Evi as having a good marriage. Evi was crying and miserable the entire time.

Yes, I was a bit hesitant to include them on the list.  The point I was trying to make with them specifically though, is the fact that for one thing they were just another arranged marriage I could think of in which the participants eventually grew to sort of like each other, unlike the typical depiction of arranged marriages.  In addition, their relationship ended in tragedy, but not necessarily because they "broke up," which is the same thing I can see happening to Shallan and Adolin.  Dalinar still loved Navani even while he was married to Evi, and so in that respect their marriage wasn't nearly as "happily-ever-after" as the other arranged marriages, but it still presents an example of Sanderson characters striving to make their marriage work, even in less-than-ideal circumstances.  

[Dreamstorm]

10 hours ago, Llarimar said:

I can think of some examples of bad marriages in his books, such as between Shallan's parents, but generally married people are strong power couples - Ialai and Sadeas, for example.  Infidelity almost never plays a role in his books.  In addition, I have constantly noticed that Sanderson has a surprisingly sympathetic view of arranged marriages in his books - the parties in arranged marriages genuinely seem to like each other and they actually fall in love, unlike the sour, unsavory depiction of arranged marriages typically seen in Western culture, where romance and courtship are so important.  In the spoiler examples given above, four of the six marriages listed were arranged marriages, and they turned out just as as well as the non-arranged ones.  Even arranged marriages like Roshone and Laral seem to work out pretty well for everyone involved.

I think it is possible that Shallan and Adolin's storyline will end in tragedy, but not because their marriage crumbles or because they decide to leave each other.

I think this is the main argument for the reason Shallan and Adolin will not get divorced - not that they don't have issues that could conceivably break up a couple or that divorce is impossible in-world, but that Brandon would never do it.  I think a lot of this is ascribed to his religious views on the sanctity of marriage.  We won't know for sure unless he tells us his view (or unless he shows a divorce), but the fact he put a gay couple in his books shows some willingness to portray situations in his books which would not be supported by his religious views.  In fact, homosexual behavior leads to excommunication in the LDS church whereas divorce, while frowned upon, is allowed.  From what I can find, the LDS church itself reports its divorce rate at 6% whereas others say it's more like 10%.  Far below the national average, but the point is it's still possible to be a practicing Mormon and get divorced.  If you openly engage in homosexual behavior, however, you become apostate.  (This is actually a recent change (fall 2015 ostensibly in reaction to to the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage - there used to be a "turning the blind eye" approach), and below is a link to an interesting Atlantic article on how it affected existing gay Mormon couples.  I have wondered if the real-life Drehy (who is married to a man) is Mormon and how this has affected him.)  So based on Brandon's religious views, portraying an openly gay couple is more radical than portraying a divorce.  Of course, Drehy is a side character so it's easy for those offended to "edit" that out without touching the main plotline, whereas a divorce of Shallan and Adolin would be impossible to ignore.

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/03/lgbt-mormons/475035/