[OB] Who or what exactly are the Voidbringers?

[fievelgoespostal]

So the Stormfather refers to the Voidbringers as "Spren of Parshmen long dead"

 

How is he using the word "Spren"   Does he mean actual Spren? Or does he mean soul/cognitive shadow? Because cognitive shadow seems to be the only way it makes sense 

Edited December 16, 2017 by fievelgoespostal
im so confused lol

[RShara she/her]

So, some of this is fuzzy, because the SF doesn't always use the right terms (he calls himself a Sliver, but he should be a Splinter, etc).

Also, the voidbringers are humans.

But the Fused are the cognitive shadows of the ancient Listeners, enhanced (and corrupted?) by Odium's power.  They're being stapled into live bodies by Odium's power, destroying the Mind and Spirit of the original owner of the body.

The Oathpact sealed them into Damnation (Braize).  But any time one of the Heralds broke, and allowed them to return to Roshar, the entirety of them would start to be able to return as well.

Now that they've somehow created the Everstorm, when the Fused are killed, they don't return to Damnation at all.  They float around in the Everstorm until they find another body to possess.

Does that make sense?

 

[fievelgoespostal]

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

So, some of this is fuzzy, because the SF doesn't always use the right terms (he calls himself a Sliver, but he should be a Splinter, etc).

Also, the voidbringers are humans.

But the Fused are the cognitive shadows of the ancient Listeners, enhanced (and corrupted?) by Odium's power.  They're being stapled into live bodies by Odium's power, destroying the Mind and Spirit of the original owner of the body.

The Oathpact sealed them into Damnation (Braize).  But any time one of the Heralds broke, and allowed them to return to Roshar, the entirety of them would start to be able to return as well.

Now that they've somehow created the Everstorm, when the Fused are killed, they don't return to Damnation at all.  They float around in the Everstorm until they find another body to possess.

Does that make sense?

 

It makes perfect sense to me. What is confusing of the Stormfathers use of the word spren. It would make sense that the Fused are the cognitive shadows of the ancient Listeners, and I would assume thats what the Stormfather means.  

Someone needs to ask BS to clarify lol

[RShara she/her]

Well the Rosharans call just about any kind of mobile investiture "spren" so... It's a very non-specific term.

[Oversleep]

11 hours ago, RShara said:

So, some of this is fuzzy, because the SF doesn't always use the right terms (he calls himself a Sliver, but he should be a Splinter, etc).

He's kinda both:

Quote

BlackYeti (paraphrased)

In Words of Radiance, the Stormfather refers to himself as a Sliver, how is this the case when he is apparently a Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow, but he doesn't know the correct terminology. Terms such as splinter and Sliver don't really apply to him.

source

So, while he not necessarily uses correct terminology, he IS right though.

11 hours ago, fievelgoespostal said:

How is he using the word "Spren"   Does he mean actual Spren? Or does he mean soul/cognitive shadow? Because cognitive shadow seems to be the only way it makes sense 

There's not much of technical difference:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I would call most Cognitive Shadows a Splinter in some ways. And you see it when Kelsier tries to leave, right. And spren would have the same trouble, and seons would have the same trouble.

source

Quote

FirstSelector

So if I'm a Surgebinder, I have my own Cognitive entity with me. Can I go off-world with that and will everything continue to work in exactly the same way? Because we've seen Cognitive entities that don't--

Brandon Sanderson

So taking a Cognitive entity off-world is hard. So, Surgebinding, if you can find out how to make it happen, remember, the Investiture is keyed to Connection. This is why Kelsier is-- Oh, sorry, spoilers! When a certain somebody *laughter* had trouble getting off Scadrial, because he basically was a spren by that point so

source

If you recall, Stormfather calls himself at one point a spren of the Almighty.

Similarly, he describes Fused as spren of ancient singers - but he means Cognitive Shadows of ancient singers.

11 hours ago, RShara said:

Also, the voidbringers are humans.

Not really - humans were the original Voidbringers. By now the term is solely used to describe Odium's forces.

11 hours ago, RShara said:

They're being stapled into live bodies by Odium's power, destroying the Mind and Spirit of the original owner of the body.

I wouldn't describe it as "destroying" - they retain their minds and spirit, they just have been infused by Odium's Investiture. Similarly how Heralds are still themselves even though they are Cognitive Shadows.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Ookla the Indefatigable

[sonNeturo he/him]

I've been a little confused as well. I probably rushed through the book too quickly. So the fused are the cognitive shadows of really old dead parshmen and women from, I assume, either when humans first arrived or when they started taking over. 

So are the gold voidspren the ancient listeners too? If not who/what are they? Why do they look like the shin?

[Heir of the Void he/him]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Indefatigable said:

Not really - humans were the original Voidbringers. By now the term is solely used to describe Odium's forces.

Slight correction - Odium is the eponymous void, and Odium was the original god of men before they switched to Honor. So the term has always been used to describe Odium's forces, but who works for Odium changed six or seven thousand years ago.

[Oversleep]

2 hours ago, Heir of the Void said:

Slight correction - Odium is the eponymous void, and Odium was the original god of men before they switched to Honor. So the term has always been used to describe Odium's forces, but who works for Odium changed six or seven thousand years ago.

Yeah, you are right

3 hours ago, sonNeturo said:

So are the gold voidspren the ancient listeners too? If not who/what are they? Why do they look like the shin?

No, ancient singers are solely Fused. But Odium has more various Splinters - like Unmade, those voidspren, then those that grant forms of power...

[DocHoliday he/him]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Indefatigable said:

I wouldn't describe it as "destroying" - they retain their minds and spirit, they just have been infused by Odium's Investiture. Similarly how Heralds are still themselves even though they are Cognitive Shadows.

The Emisary to the Parshendi states explicitly to Venli: "your friends are dead and gone to the Beyond. Nothing and no-one can bring them back."

That's pretty well drawing the line; the Fused displace whoever is in the body.

[aemetha he/him]

1 hour ago, DocHoliday said:

That's pretty well drawing the line; the Fused displace whoever is in the body.

This was my interpretation too. The forms of power is where the minds and spirit are retained but infused with Odium's investiture. The fused replace the original completely. Unless we have a confirmation that it is otherwise, I think it's most reasonable to accept the explanation of the Emissary on this one, if for no other reason than they described correctly the process in which a dead person goes beyond.

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, DocHoliday said:

The Emisary to the Parshendi states explicitly to Venli: "your friends are dead and gone to the Beyond. Nothing and no-one can bring them back."

That's pretty well drawing the line; the Fused displace whoever is in the body.

Of course, you are right. I misread the original statement.