[OB] Kaladin's Ideal Woman

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Tien was Kaladin's innocence, someone to protect, someone who could always cheer him up.

... and the reason, why he can't be there for the living and is instead only feeling for those that have died. Which I think is the more important takeaway from this. I do think, that he was/is interested in romance, but he still can't let go of those, that have died and will continue to die. This correlates with what we expect the Fourth Ideal to be, that he has to realize, that he can't protect everyone and why he has problems in speaking it.

Well, on the surface, you can certainly see it like that, that he only sees Shallan as someone, that can cheer him up, but I think, that it is yet another cop-out for himself, just as he has done through Oathbringer ("She's Adolin's betrothed", etc.). His thoughts about Shallan during the book were quite romantic and profound actually. And well, how can he have feelings for the living, when he only thinks about the dead. That was also was Tarah told him in the flashback, which also involved the stone again.

But, that is not the topic at hand here.

First of all, I don't think, that there is an ideal partner for everyone. People are not fixed, but change. Sometimes you fall in love with someone and, a few years later, they have changed so much, that you rather break up.

While there are no ideal partners, there are good matches and, to be quite honest, for Kaladin I still only see She Who Shall(an) Not Be Named.

She challenges him intellectually, which he enjoys.

She is one of the few people, that can actually make him smile and laugh at times. You don't have to like Shallan's humor, but they are on the same wavelength in that regard.

He doesn't feel the need to constantly babysit and protect her, he knows, that she can protect herself. In Kholinar, Shallan/Veil asks Kaladin to stay back, when she goes into the palace. Kaladin does so.

He notices when she is happy and feels a desire to keep her that way. (On the flight to Kholinar.)

They work incredibly well together. Naturally, without any profound planning. The way she created an illusion of Kaladin during the chasmfiend fight showed that. They didn't plan it, but she did it anyway and helped him.

And he doesn't judge her for the things, that she had to do in her past. He understands, that you sometimes have to do the things, that you have to do. If anything, I think he would even actually see Shallan killing her mother in that situation as positive, because she was protecting herself.

Well, the last point is a bit contentious, but we have an annotation by Brandon, that says the following.

Quote

WoK Chapter Eight Annotations

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren…

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8/

Kaladin is passionate about... life, I guess? Shallan is too, she shows it at times. (For instance against Re-Shephir) But that person is still buried inside her.

Which brings me to the conclusion, that Shallan is the best match for Kaladin, but... not right now. She first needs to find herself. The timid Shallan we now have as her default personality might be a good match for Adolin, but that what seems to be far more "her" and truer to her person, that passionate, spirited woman? I don't think so. That fits much better with Kaladin. And I think, that she will become that person in the end. She needs to, to attain self-awareness and continue on her path of Radiancy.

Then again, I don't think, that Kaladin is ready for any romantic feelings for the living until he has finally realized, that he can't save everyone. There are only so many resources one has.

And... again I've gone way deeper into character analysis, than I wanted to.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

8 hours ago, Korbin said:

What do I call them? Pashendi Parshmen? Voidbringers? I'll just stick with parsh...

Singers are the species, listeners are the group specifically on the Shattered Plains. Voidbringer can be pretty much anything that follows Odium. Parsh would be equivilant to singers and Parshendi equivilent to listeners, but only if you are an ignorant Alethi. Parshmen are specifically the ones in slave form. 

@SLNC my problem with them together is that he just doesn't understand her. When they're talking on the boat in Shadesmar, he says it must be great to just forget things. He doesn't understand how unhealthy it is for her. Maybe Kaladin needs someone like her in his life, but I think Kaladin would be one of the worst people for Shallan to have in her life. And maybe he would be fine with her killing her mother, but would he be okay with how she killed her father? Poisoning him and then strangling him in his sleep? I don't think so. Would he like her constantly sneaking around with the Ghostbloods? I think it would go too much against what he believes is right to approve of that. On a surface level she seems to have all the traits that would work for him, but I think if you go deeper that relationship would fall apart because of their differences in worldview. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by thegatorgirl00

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

And maybe he would be fine with her killing her mother, but would he be okay with how she killed her father? Poisoning him and then strangling him in his sleep? I don't think so.

She was protecting her brothers, especially Balat. Lin had finally lost it and already had killed her stepmother. I do think, he would be fine with that. How else should she have killed Lin? Hand-to-hand combat?

30 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Would he like her constantly sneaking around with the Ghostbloods? I think it would go too much against what he believes is right to approve of that.

Depends. Shallan/Veil isn't a Ghostblood out of conviction, but because she originally wanted to find out more about them, because she thought they assassinated Jasnah. Having a spy is useful. I do think, that Kaladin could see that.

30 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

When they're talking on the boat in Shadesmar, he says it must be great to just forget things. He doesn't understand how unhealthy it is for her.

Nope. That is what Shallan infers from that conversation. He said, that he would do it eagerly, but she didn't even tell him the extent of what has happened to her, since she only mysteriously makes an off-hand mention of it "fragmenting her". I think it is unfair to just conclude, that Kaladin doesn't understand, because (a) he was in a pretty bad mindset himself during the conversation and (b) she was not speaking straight to him about it.

Edited December 14, 2017 by SLNC

[marsoupial they/them]

Yeah, Kal and Shallan would not be a great pairing. Shallan is always fluctuating and is really not emotionally or mentally stable, at least at the moment, and she needs someone who she can rely on. Adolin is perfect for her in that respect. He will be there for her, he'll come running. She doesn't need someone who broods, who intermittently falls into deep periods of depression (which isn't his fault, but certainly wouldn't do well in a relationship), who can just go flying off as he pleases. 

And Kaladin's not exactly in a place where he can fully devote himself to someone, either, or be any good in a relationship. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Ookla the Melodious

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Melodious said:

Adolin is perfect for her in that respect. He will be there for her, he'll come running.

I don't see that as a positive. She needs support yes, but not blind support. Blind support will lead to stagnation, as we are already seeing.

Quote

She doesn't need someone who broods, who intermittently falls into deep periods of depression (which isn't his fault, but certainly wouldn't do well in a relationship), who just goes flying off as he pleases. 

He doesn't always brood, those periods got a lot shorter and not as heavy, if anything he feels better around Shallan, ... when does he 'fly away as he please' like that? I'll be honest, that is a pretty damnation shallow and negative characterization of Kaladin.

Edited December 14, 2017 by SLNC

[marsoupial they/them]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

I don't see that as a positive. She needs support yes, but not blind support. Blind support will lead to stagnation, as we are already seeing.

He doesn't always brood, those periods got a lot shorter and not as heavy, if anything he feels better around Shallan, ... when does he 'fly away as he please' like that? I'll be honest, that is a pretty damnation shallow and negative characterization of Kaladin.

Sorry, I suppose you're right. As a character he is better than that, but I still believe he and Shallan would work out poorly, if at all. What I'm saying is, both of them need someone to anchor them, to tether them, and they aren't stable enough to do that for each other.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Ookla the Melodious said:

What I'm saying is, both of them need someone to anchor them, to tether them, and they aren't stable enough to do that for each other.

Hm. I don't think so. Well, that they need someone to anchor them. That shouldn't be the responsibility of the partner, but you are of course entitled to your opinion.

[Wolven he/him]

23 hours ago, Calyx said:

I imagine it would be someone strong who disagrees with him very often, at least at first. 

Jasnah actually comes to mind, though I doubt (and don't think) that will be a thing. 

It probably won't, but it is the one that I am really hoping for.  I just really like the idea of Jasnah and Kaladin.

For one thing, they fit in the way that, Kaladin cares to much and Jasnah maybe doesn't care quite enough.  About individual people that is.  They could really balance that out in each other.

I don't really see the age thing being that much of a problem, and as for the fact that Jasnah is now queen.  Well...I don't think that would necessarily be a problem forever.  I have this thought that if any character is going to become a world hopper from Stormlight Archive, it's going to be Jasnah.

Again though, probably not going to happen at all.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Wolven

[Dreamstorm]

10 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Heyyy, if you ever wanted to write up that kadolin essay, I'd sure love to read it!  

Hmmmm, maybe I can even get up the courage to do a Case for Kadolin post... (caveating that I understand it's not going to happen in the book so I don't get yelled at for that!  But still why I love it and what in-book "evidence" we have...)

10 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

We actually dont know a ton about Laral. We know she had dreams of Kaladin getting a shardblade and presumably marry him, we know she kind of got stuck in Hearthstone with a different brighteyed family when her father died, and we know she got stuck marrying an old man for political reasons. I don't see anything in there that makes her the most horrible of lighteyed society.

I'm getting more and more into Laral.  I agree she seems to have developed into quite a strong young woman (and I do not see the fact she was kind of petty and starstuck by a fancy young lighteyed man as a teenager as a crippling personal fault; that's what happen when you're a teenager.)  I think one definite possibility is that when the books pick back up in SA4, all of Hearthstone is already at Urithiru (and since it's all of them, Lirin would come too.)  I wouldn't be surprised if what Kaladin and B4 did for much of the one-year break was rescue the people in the pockets of resistance in Alethkar (noted as Kaladin files to Skar and Drehy in the end) including Hearthstone.  As readers, we don't need to see this and the Hearthstone arrival at Urithiru because we already saw the reunion in OB, but it would raise all sorts of interesting interpersonal dynamics to have Kaladin's family, Roshone and Laral at Urithiru.  There was definitely some "chemistry" still between Kaladin and Laral; he's all "I will protect you", and she's all "storm off" and then all "like you know the king!... oh wait you do, I'll just be silent and a little in awe now...."  They were both interested in each other as children.  Laral was an adventurous girl, scrambling over rocks and exploring with Kaladin and Tien, and she clearly has a "I can take care of myself" attitude - all of which fits well with Kaladin IMO.  I'm sure she's not able to stop thinking about him right now...  I mean you're married to an old man in the middle of nowhere and your childhood crush (who you spurned at one point) comes back with a shardblade and flying?!?  C'mon!  So, yes, current wishcasting is Hearthstone in Urithiru, more Laral/Kaladin interactions, and don't forget Lirin was good friends with her father and Hesina always approved of the match, so there'd be plenty of external support of this match.  #teamlaraladin

[Calyx]

10 minutes ago, Wolven said:

It probably won't, but it is the one that I am really hoping for.  I just really like the idea of Jasnah and Kaladin.

For one thing, they fit in the way that, Kaladin cares to much and Jasnah maybe doesn't care quite enough.  About individual people that is.  They could really balance that out in each other.

I don't really see the age thing being that much of a problem, and as for the fact that Jasnah is now queen.  Well...I don't think that would necessarily be a problem forever.  I have this thought that if any character is going to become a world hopper from Stormlight Archive, it's going to be Jasnah.

Again though, probably not going to happen at all.

As far as I remember, Kaladin and Jasnah have only one scene together in Oathbringer, and they definitely clash. I believe at the end Kaladin suggests that he can find some eels for Jasnah to cuddle, or something to that effect, and her only response is a smile. This doesn't imply romance, but it does imply they could grow to actually be friendly. 

I like the Laral idea that @Dreamstorm explores above, I can definitely see that working if Roshone is killed somehow (not difficult to imagine) and Hearthstone is evacuated to Urithiru.

[Rainier]

14 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I think you are getting Laral mixed up with Roshone, or Aesudan (Side note the pronunciation of the first syllable of her name I find rather appropriate). We actually dont know a ton about Laral. We know she had dreams of Kaladin getting a shardblade and presumably marry him, we know she kind of got stuck in Hearthstone with a different brighteyed family when her father died, and we know she got stuck marrying an old man for political reasons. I don't see anything in there that makes her the most horrible of lighteyed society. So far I think she has made way less egregious choices than whiny Elhokar.

See, you're thinking of Laral as the woman she seemed to be in our brief time with her in Oathbringer. I haven't forgiven her for how she treated Kaladin after her father died, specifically when she and Roshone the younger find Kaladin in the kitchens and she treats him like rust. That scene showed me what kind of person Laral is, and it's not the kind of person I want for Kaladin.

3 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I agree she seems to have developed into quite a strong young woman (and I do not see the fact she was kind of petty and starstuck by a fancy young lighteyed man as a teenager as a crippling personal fault; that's what happen when you're a teenager.)

I can see forgiving her for this, I just don't. To me it showed exactly how fickle her favor was, and I don't see any reason to think it's different now. What's changed is not how fickle she is, but their two situations.

3 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I'm sure she's not able to stop thinking about him right now...  I mean you're married to an old man in the middle of nowhere and your childhood crush (who you spurned at one point) comes back with a shardblade and flying?!?  C'mon!

Right, she's basically destitute and the life she's lived hasn't met her expectations. Kaladin, on the other hand, had his life torn apart by her husband, endured the worst the world could offer, and came out of it somehow stronger, better, and now with wealth and status. Of course Laral is going to want to get back with Kaladin: her other options suck. But that just means she's exactly as selfish as I consider her.

[Starla]

@Dreamstorm I have similar thoughts as you on Laral. I disliked her after WOK due to the snobby kitchen incident, and I still think she owes Kaladin an apology for that. However, I came around on her in Oathbringer. Not only does she have the respect of her guards, but she seemed to be out working in the rain in boots and a "utilitarian havah." Being married to Roshone can't have been easy for her, but rather than being beaten down and weakened by it, she seems like is being the strong leader her town needs. I like that she didn't fawn all over Kaladin and his shardblate, nor want his protection. I think Laral might have some radiant potential. She hasn't had the easiest life but seems to have made the best of it.

I like your idea of everyone being in Urithiru in book four. I would love to see the Hearthstone crew interacting with our main cast, and I want to see more of little Oroden growing up.

@Rainier I see you have the same problem with Laral I did, with that scene with Rillir in the kitchen. That really bothered me when I first read it. I agree that it did not portray her in a positive light. However I can see she was in a difficult situation, and when I think back to myself at 15 years old, I probably also did some stupid things too. When I look at her now, she seems much more mature, and she is helping the people of Hearthstone. I still need to see more to make a final decision on her character, but I think she has some potential.

 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I don´t know what happened to me... I´m seriously about to promote a ship/pairing. Huh. Never thought this day would come. 

Anyway, I´m interested in the Rysn-Kaladin idea (I just really don´t like to type Rysnadin). Kaladin is protective, brooding, and fights depression. Rysn is happy enough to help him be non-brooding, but is able to protect herself, with her larkin and A+ crossbow skills that would make the Freys jealous (yes, random GoT reference). She can also understand loss, seeing as she suffered the loss of being able not to walk ever again, something that Kaladin in turn could relate too, partly because of how he has been close to people with similar injuries (hello, Hobber) and partly because of his losses. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Anyway, I´m interested in the Rysn-Kaladin idea (I just really don´t like to type Rysnadin). Kaladin is protective, brooding, and fights depression. Rysn is happy enough to help him be non-brooding, but is able to protect herself, with her larkin and A+ crossbow skills that would make the Freys jealous (yes, random GoT reference). She can also understand loss, seeing as she suffered the loss of being able not to walk ever again, something that Kaladin in turn could relate too, partly because of how he has been close to people with similar injuries (hello, Hobber) and partly because of his losses. 

I could dig it, but I'm not so sure if we'll see Rysn interacting much with Kaladin. She seems like a tool (yeah harsh word, isn't meant like that) for Brandon to show us more of Roshar. Especially with her having the ship now. I think, she'll stay as an interlude character for the time being.

Edited December 14, 2017 by SLNC

[Calyx]

21 minutes ago, Rainier said:

See, you're thinking of Laral as the woman she seemed to be in our brief time with her in Oathbringer. I haven't forgiven her for how she treated Kaladin after her father died, specifically when she and Roshone the younger find Kaladin in the kitchens and she treats him like rust. That scene showed me what kind of person Laral is, and it's not the kind of person I want for Kaladin.

I don't think this is entirely fair to Laral, who is only 15 at the time. Her father died, she was basically imprisoned in her own home and not allowed to see anyone, another family with pretty strong views and plans for her waltzed into town and took things over, and she has to marry the son to survive. Regardless of her personal thoughts, I don't see how she could have gone against him in that scene. She was as good as a prisoner there.

[Calyx]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I could dig it, but I'm not so sure if we'll see Rysn interacting much with Kaladin. She seems like a tool (yeah harsh word, isn't meant like that) for Brandon to show us more of Roshar. Especially with her having the ship now. I think, she'll stay as an interlude character for the time being.

You are probably right, but I really like the Rysn idea - not least of all because I enjoy Rysn's character.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Calyx said:

You are probably right, but I really like the Rysn idea - not least of all because I enjoy Rysn's character.

Absolutely. I do too.

Regarding Laral:

Let's be honest. Kaladin sounded pretty damnation turned off.

Quote

Syl zipped over his shoulder as he started down the steps. “So, that’s the girl you were going to marry.”

“No,” Kaladin whispered. “That’s a girl I was never going to marry, no matter what happened.”

“I like her.”

“You would.”

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by SLNC

[MonsterMetroid]

3 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think one definite possibility is that when the books pick back up in SA4, all of Hearthstone is already at Urithiru (and since it's all of them, Lirin would come too.) 

It's a possibility, but I have doubts about it. I would guess before or around the same time that Kaladin was rescuing Skar and company that he tried to bring his family back... I mean Kaladin said he would be back for them. But Unless the whole town comes there is no way Lirin is agreeing to it and Roshone is not going to want to go with Kaladin somewhere and half the town will probably think that radients are evil and traitors. I mean Lirins schtick is to disagree with kaladin on things.

[MonsterMetroid]

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Let's be honest. Kaladin sounded pretty damnation turned off.

Sounds an awful like when he first met Shallan doesnt it?  If Kaladin character is one thing he does change his mind about people as he gets to know them.

[Dreamstorm]

40 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I can see forgiving her for this, I just don't. To me it showed exactly how fickle her favor was, and I don't see any reason to think it's different now. What's changed is not how fickle she is, but their two situations.

Teenagers are fickle, also as you said, her father had just died.  So a hormonal teenager who just lost her only parent, a parent who was probably pushing her towards a union with Kaladin (at least from what Hesina says), so I think you're naturally going to pull away from that guy (Kaladin) and also try to escape into fantasy (the handsome lighteyes.)  Did she exhibit exemplary traits here?  No.  But I also think it's forgivable (thought I get that you don't.)

40 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Right, she's basically destitute and the life she's lived hasn't met her expectations. Kaladin, on the other hand, had his life torn apart by her husband, endured the worst the world could offer, and came out of it somehow stronger, better, and now with wealth and status. Of course Laral is going to want to get back with Kaladin: her other options suck. But that just means she's exactly as selfish as I consider her.

Except this is wrong... taking the desolation out of it (since the everstorm has just happened), she's the wealthiest woman she knows with oodles of money and ardents and horses and a spanreed connecting her to the palace in Kholinar.  Yeah, Dalinar is a lot richer, so Kaladin is like - oh, I didn't know what money was, but that's comparing a millionaire in a small town to a billionaire; the millionaire is still super rich and still has status.  Laral didn't seem like she wanted to get back together with Kal... she actually said the opposite.  But, I'm sure it'll stick with her, not because she craves wealth and status (she's always had those things in her world), but because he has become what she dreamed of him being when she was younger - a knight with a shardblade.

14 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Let's be honest. Kaladin sounded pretty damnation turned off.

I think you and I may agree that when Kaladin sounds the most turned off it might be an indicator he's actually feeling the opposite way... (ahem, she who shall not be named.)  Not to mention he had just got shut down; of course he's going to be pouty.  Syl also has the exact same reaction to those two young ladies.

9 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

It's a possibility, but I have doubts about it. I would guess before or around the same time that Kaladin was rescuing Skar and company that he tried to bring his family back... I mean Kaladin said he would be back for them. But Unless the whole town comes there is no way Lirin is agreeing to it and Roshone is not going to want to go with Kaladin somewhere and half the town will probably think that radients are evil and traitors. I mean Lirins schtick is to disagree with kaladin on things.

Yeah, I was thinking more of a necessary evacuation thing.  I have no evidence one way or another it'll happen, but I think it could set up a lot of interesting character development (not the least uniting my new ship Laraladin.  Which to be clear, is a ship purely based on something I think would be fun, lol, so there's ample room for disagreement.  Something I would ask Brandon would be... "Have we seen the last of Laral?" ) 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Sounds an awful like when he first met Shallan doesnt it?  If Kaladin character is one thing he does change his mind about people as he gets to know them.

6 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think you and I may agree that when Kaladin sounds the most turned off it might be an indicator he's actually feeling the opposite way... (ahem, she who shall not be named.)  Not to mention he had just got shut down; of course he's going to be pouty.  Syl also has the exact same reaction to those two young ladies.

But he met Laral before, that is different. She was his childhood friend/crush. Even after she really mistreated him in his youth, he thought about coming back and saving her (yeah, I don't like that wording either, but it is what it is). I mean sure, there is a possibility, but man, that was a harsh dismissal. And I can understand him. Laral has zero understanding. Yes, she tells him, that she was sorry to hear about Tien, but only as an off-hand comment. Is that how you talk to an old childhood friend, that lost his little brother, because of your own husband?

And then this,

Quote

“Roshone brutalized my family. He sent my brother to his death and did everything he could to destroy my father!”

“And your father spoke against my husband,” Laral said, “disparaging him in front of the other townspeople. How would you feel, as a new brightlord exiled far from home, only to find that the town’s most important citizen is openly critical of you?”

Her perspective was skewed, of course. Lirin had tried to befriend Roshone at first, hadn’t he? Still, Kaladin found little passion to continue the argument. What did he care? He intended to see his parents moved from this city anyway.

Kaladin doesn't even give a damnation about Hearthstone, Roshone and Laral anymore. Sure, he would protect them, if he needed because of his oaths, but not because he cares about them.

Edited December 14, 2017 by SLNC

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

30 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Of course Laral is going to want to get back with Kaladin: her other options suck

What made you think she wants to get with him? When Kaladin talks about his dreams of saving her, her response is pretty much "You don't get to decide what makes me happy, so stop talking about my husband and storm off". Sure she was surprised when Kaladin spoke to Dalinar, but she just found out her childhood friend was on a first name basis with the most important man in the world. That would surprise anyone. She didn't come across as fickle to me either, instead acting loyal to her husband and people. 

It's not like Kaladin's family was completely innocent either. Lirin had stolen a bunch of money from her father for Kaladin. It's not Kaladin's fault, but she has legitimate reason to be angered at his family. 

[Dreamstorm]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And then this,

Quote

“Roshone brutalized my family. He sent my brother to his death and did everything he could to destroy my father!”

“And your father spoke against my husband,” Laral said, “disparaging him in front of the other townspeople. How would you feel, as a new brightlord exiled far from home, only to find that the town’s most important citizen is openly critical of you?”

Her perspective was skewed, of course. Lirin had tried to befriend Roshone at first, hadn’t he? Still, Kaladin found little passion to continue the argument. What did he care? He intended to see his parents moved from this city anyway.

Kaladin doesn't even give a damnation about Hearthstone, Roshone and Laral anymore. Sure, he would protect them, if he needed because of his oaths, but not because he cares about them.

Did Lirin try to befriend Roshone...?  I think this is more a moment of Kaladin slowly learning there are two sides to every story, which is a theme throughout all of his character growth.  (Something which is very tied to his breakdown in Kholinar as well.)  And damnation, Kaladin better care about Hearthstone and more than just his family, or else bye, bye Syl (protecting those you hate?; protecting in general?)  I don't want to go through that again!  

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

And damnation, Kaladin better care about Hearthstone and more than just his family, or else bye, bye Syl (protecting those you hate?; protecting in general?)  I don't want to go through that again! 

Hold on. Like I said, if he needed to protect in concordance with his Ideals, he would, but not because he cares personally about them.

For his family, he would ride a thousand highstorms, for Laral and Roshone? I doubt it. He can't be everywhere after all, but if he were there and they needed protection, he would protect them.

Edited December 14, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Hold on. Like I said, if he needed to protect in concordance with his Ideals, he would, but not because he cares personally about them.

Sorry, you edited to add that and I didn't re-read when I quoted it.  I think it's very hard for Kaladin to separate his duty to protect from personally caring.  Besides in the line you bolded ("What did he care? He intended to see his parents moved from this city anyway.") this makes it seem like he would abandon them, which we all know he won't do.  Kaladin has these dramatic reactions all the time (e.g. when talking to Dalinar about flying to Kholinar with Elhokar and having to brood about it and then say he was fine with taking Elhokar) but in the end he feels just as emotional about protecting the people he doesn't necessarily care for.  Besides with Laral at least, this is all after she just shot him down (shutting down the "I was going to save you"), so there's a definite sense of rejection going on.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Dreamstorm