[OB] Strong Emotion (Mistborn Spoilers)

[KidWayne]

In reading @Subvisual Haze's post (link), I was reminded of a theory/connection that has at various times popped up in my head at times I was away from these forums. Read these words from the linked post and re-join me below:

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Dalinar was able to bind Neragoul in a perfect gem by embracing "The Thrill" emotion that Neragoul encouraged and was drawn to. <snip>

[B-A-M is presented] as an extremely intelligent UnMade, probably Odium's second in command, and thus unlikely to fooled into entering a perfect gem prison merely by some Radiant expressing an emotional state. 

I'll keep it simple... this sounds A LOT like Lessie/Paalm talking about "strong emotion" in Shadows of Self. The way Subvisual Haze describes the process of drawing Neragoul to himself sounds a lot like rioting & soothing the emotions of Kandra and Koloss to control them. I'm not 100% on what the connection between this similarity in the magic systems is, but I'm drawn to the suspicion that the red haze Sazed shows Wax in Bands of Mourning has something to do with Odium.

Given what we know from the Letters in OB, specifically letter #2, I think this is supporting evidence for Trell being "a new avatar of [Autonomy's] being." As it is commonly supposed that Bavadin/Autonomy is the author of that letter. So, I think the Set is a secret society patterned after a secret society like the Ghostbloods on Roshar that are planet-hopping disciples led by Autonomy's new avatar and supported by the spren of Odium (and maybe even an Unmade or two).

I propose that Odium - in his fear of Harmony - has enlisted Autonomy as a partner to murder Sazed. Harmony - as a holder of two shards and as an intent - is likely anathema to Autonomy and he is a potential threat to Odium. Hoid's first letter in Way of Kings already establishes a precedent for an association of some sort between Rayse & Bavadin, so I submit that we can expect to see this team up as a plot point in The Lost Metal. I also expect that this has implications for the direction of the plot of books 4 & 5 of The Stormlight Archive.

I feel like there is more to pull out here, but this is all I have for now. Please feel free to add to or correct my thoughts here as you see fit (up to and including moving this to the Mistborn forums; I put it here in an abundance of caution in deference to the Oathbringer spoiler policy).

[Blazenella]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

...but I'm drawn to the suspicion that the red haze Sazed shows Wax in Bands of Mourning has something to do with Odium.

It's not necessarily Odium, but it is shardic influence

 

Quote

 

FirstSelector [PENDING REVIEW]

Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

 

 

[KidWayne]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Variable said:

It's not necessarily Odium, but it is shardic influence

Sure, it could be Autonomy acting alone, I just think the association with strong emotion points to Odium's influence at some level in the actions of the Set on Scadrial. The word's of the red-eyed Kandra(?) at the end of BoM (i.e. something along the lines of "we are going to end all life on this sphere") sounds like Odium's boasting to Dalinar of what he will do if he wins on Roshar. On top of that, the red-eyed Kandra's promise that Suit will serve in another realm sounds so much like what Odium did with the Fused.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Ookla the Hatter

[aemetha]

I have to agree, that it doesn't necessarily indicate Odium. It's established in the letters that there were rules the shards were supposed to follow about not teaming up. Harmony is the actual embodiment of a violation of that rule. There is a quite plausible scenario that all of the shards that followed the rules (including ones we haven't met) are hostile to Harmony, purely on the basis that he is a violation of the rules.

[KidWayne]

Oooh, I just had another thought...

Odium's big temptation/sales pitch is "it's not your fault; ___ made you do those things." How much would that have found purchase with Lessie after Harmony had (more or less) forced her to stage her death to manipulate Wax? She would have certainly wrestled with a lot of guilt over the pain her death inflicted on Wax whom she genuinely loved. I think that "it's not your fault; Harmony made you do those things" would have been nearly impossible for her to resist.

Assuming that Autonomy & Odium are aligned in attacking Sazed/Scadrial, winning her allegiance with Odium's passion and then directing her to behave subversively makes perfect sense.

[Vortaan]

39 minutes ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

Oooh, I just had another thought...

Odium's big temptation/sales pitch is "it's not your fault; ___ made you do those things." How much would that have found purchase with Lessie after Harmony had (more or less) forced her to stage her death to manipulate Wax? She would have certainly wrestled with a lot of guilt over the pain her death inflicted on Wax whom she genuinely loved. I think that "it's not your fault; Harmony made you do those things" would have been nearly impossible for her to resist.

Assuming that Autonomy & Odium are aligned in attacking Sazed/Scadrial, winning her allegiance with Odium's passion and then directing her to behave subversively makes perfect sense.

I mean I doubt that would find purchase because it's the literal truth, Paalm knows it. Harmony took direct control over her, she had no choice, and then instead of suiciding she removed a spike and did her whole kill god plan. I really doubt we are going to see Odium's influence on Scadrial at this point since Lost Metal comes out before SA4.

[KidWayne]

Just now, Vortaan said:

I mean I doubt that would find purchase because it's the literal truth, Paalm knows it. Harmony took direct control over her, she had no choice, and then instead of suiciding she removed a spike and did her whole kill god plan. I really doubt we are going to see Odium's influence on Scadrial at this point since Lost Metal comes out before SA4.

I think we may very well see his influence, but that he won't make an appearance on screen. It will all be vague enough that we might still be questioning the identity of the Shard behind Trellium. I think that story arc is more likely to refer to the attacking Shard as "the enemy" and set up Kelsier as a force/personality to unite the Northern and Southern Scadrians. It will probably set them up for the next series on Scadrial as a potential space-faring culture/people. FOr all we know that might be Keliser's (but not necessarily Harmony's) solution to the looming threat of "the enemy."

I'm not sure whether Brandon has abandoned his plan to do a 1980's-era set of books on Scadrial as he mentioned once upon a time, but by the '80s IRL we had already been to the moon and first started to worry about "star wars" with the Russians.

Basically, I'm saying there's enough there for the finale of the Wax & Wayne era of Mistborn without going all Hero of Ages and making it a battle for Olympus/Scadrial. Properly done, that conflict can be built up in The Lost Metal but the actual conflict can be saved for the next Mistborn series.

[Vortaan]

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

I think we may very well see his influence, but that he won't make an appearance on screen. It will all be vague enough that we might still be questioning the identity of the Shard behind Trellium. I think that story arc is more likely to refer to the attacking Shard as "the enemy" and set up Kelsier as a force/personality to unite the Northern and Southern Scadrians. It will probably set them up for the next series on Scadrial as a potential space-faring culture/people. FOr all we know that might be Keliser's (but not necessarily Harmony's) solution to the looming threat of "the enemy."

I'm not sure whether Brandon has abandoned his plan to do a 1980's-era set of books on Scadrial as he mentioned once upon a time, but by the '80s IRL we had already been to the moon and first started to worry about "star wars" with the Russians.

Basically, I'm saying there's enough there for the finale of the Wax & Wayne era of Mistborn without going all Hero of Ages and making it a battle for Olympus/Scadrial. Properly done, that conflict can be built up in The Lost Metal but the actual conflict can be saved for the next Mistborn series.

 

What I'm saying is that these two series are running pretty close to each other in the timeline and seeing Odium or his influence on Scadrial ruins any tension for SA, especially since we have 6 more books that take place close enough together that Jasnah is a main character for book 8 or so.

[KidWayne]

13 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

 

What I'm saying is that these two series are running pretty close to each other in the timeline and seeing Odium or his influence on Scadrial ruins any tension for SA, especially since we have 6 more books that take place close enough together that Jasnah is a main character for book 8 or so.

I totally get that. I just think that we can go ahead and assume that Odium is able to leave Roshar by the end of Book 5.

I think the "back 5" are going to be about bringing other Shards in to vanquish Odium "once and for all" after it is revealed that Odium is no longer bound to Roshar and presents a threat to all the other Shards of the Cosmere. You'll note that the letters all cite Rayse's imprisonment as a reason not to get involved. I suspect that their responses will change without that excuse.

In short, Book 5 ends with a win for Odium. The remainder of the series is the story of how Dalinar's Radiants snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Ookla the Hatter

[Vortaan]

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

I totally get that. I just think that we can go ahead and assume that Odium is able to leave Roshar by the end of Book 5.

I think the "back 5" are going to be about bringing other Shards in to vanquish Odium once and for all once it is revealed that Odium is no longer bound to Roshar and presents a threat to all the other Shards of the Cosmere. You'll note that the letters all cite Rayse's imprisonment as a reason not to get involved. I suspect that their responses will change without that excuse.

In short, Book 5 ends with a win for Odium. The remainder of the series is the story of how Dalinar's Radiants snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

Even if that's the case, the next cosmere book is Lost Metal. So getting any kind of appearance of Odium ruins the end of the front five of SA

[KidWayne]

3 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

Even if that's the case, the next cosmere book is Lost Metal. So getting any kind of appearance of Odium ruins the end of the front five of SA

OK, let's agree to disagree then. I think that as long as Lost Metal cloaks any Odium-interference in plausible deniability or references it only in terms of a vague threat then it doesn't spoil anything. You disagree. That's OK.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Ookla the Hatter

[StormingTexan]

1 hour ago, Vortaan said:

Even if that's the case, the next cosmere book is Lost Metal. So getting any kind of appearance of Odium ruins the end of the front five of SA

This is the #1 reason I do not think it is Odium. Of course I guess Brandon could leave it open ended as Hatter suggest and then we have to wait until book 5 for confirmation that it was in fact Odium but I just don't see Brandon doing an 8 year cliffhanger. I dunno maybe Brandon could pull it off somehow but I think AU and the letters in OB is foreshadowing that Odium is not the only Shard in the Cosmere mucking up the works. 

[KidWayne]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:00 PM, StormingTexan said:

This is the #1 reason I do not think it is Odium. Of course I guess Brandon could leave it open ended as Hatter suggest and then we have to wait until book 5 for confirmation that it was in fact Odium but I just don't see Brandon doing an 8 year cliffhanger. I dunno maybe Brandon could pull it off somehow but I think AU and the letters in OB is foreshadowing that Odium is not the only Shard in the Cosmere mucking up the works. 

OK. I agree; please refer to the OP, where I said, "Odium - in his fear of Harmony - has enlisted Autonomy as a partner to murder Sazed."

I suspect that Autonomy is the more active partner in their arrangement, as I think Trell is an avatar of Autonomy who has been interfering on Scadrial. I think Odium's involvement is probably limited to voidspren who are the power behind the Set.

In my mind, the Set's red-eyed kandra must be bonded to either voidspren or Skaze (and we might learn that both are splinters of Odium and/or corrupted splinters of other Shards). Based on Paalm's thoughts about strong emotion, I'm leaning towards voidspren based on the fact that "passion" was revealed to be an alternate intent for Odium.

Also, I think Odium is being (and has been) set up as the 2nd-tier Big Bad in the meta-narrative of the Cosmere. See this post for more on that:

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Ookla the Hatter
Added link to other post

[StormingTexan]

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

OK. I just want to emphasize that in the OP, I said, "Odium - in his fear of Harmony - has enlisted Autonomy as a partner to murder Sazed."

I suspect that Autonomy is the more active partner in their arrangement, as I think Trell is an avatar of Autonomy who has been interfering on Scadrial. I think Odium's involvement is probably limited to voidspren who are the power behind the Set.

In my mind, the Set's red-eyed kandra must be bonded to either voidspren or Skaze (and we might learn that both are splinters of Odium and/or corrupted splinters of other Shards). Based on Paalm's thoughts about strong emotion, I'm leaning towards voidspren based on the fact that "passion" was revealed to be an alternate intent for Odium.

Fair enough and I agree it is a distinct possibility. I’m a little hesitant to jump on the Autonomy and Odium being allies mainly because I think for the same reasons Odium fears Harmony Autonomy seems to be dropping aspects of herself around the Cosmere building up realms. We don’t know the exact mechanics of this though so hard to say for sure Odium would fear this. Now Odium may be playing Autonomy and the very fact she’s spreading herself thin makes her want to seek his assistance. It’s all fun to theorize on hopefully next year we will have some more knowledge. I just keep thinking Brandon has a bigger baddie in the Cosmere than Odium.