[OB] How did the wall guards see through Kaladin's disguise?

[Matt O]

Just finished listening to Oathbringer.  Awesome!

This is something subtly mentioned during the book which I never saw explained (perhaps I missed it).  When Kaladin was first approached by the wall guards in Kholinar (sorry if I misspell, I listened to the book on audible so have no idea how some of the names are spelled), they saw his slave brand even though Shallan had supposedly hidden them.  I was expecting Azure to have provided some kind of mysterious power to uncloak disguises but she apparently isn't that special.  Was this ever explained?

 

[RShara she/her]

His disguise dropped.  I assume it has something to do with him being a surgebinder, and the way he sees himself (as Kaladin-the-branded) over-riding the illusion.  Kind of like how the tattoos wouldn't stay.

[Song she/her]

Good question!

I don't think an answer was given.  But for want of a better word, there is something "spiritual" about the scars. They wouldn't heal with stormlight, they wouldn't be covered by lightweaving, and they are a "fresh pain" when he fights Amaran.

I suspect we will get a sense of why in future books.

[Starla]

I thought it was interesting that the full illusion when they entered Kholinar (ugly old man) stayed intact, but the partial illusion covering the scars did not. I assumed it was related to his view of himself, but if that's the case, why didn't the scars appear on the old man disguise? 

[Subvisual Haze]

3 minutes ago, Starla said:

I thought it was interesting that the full illusion when they entered Kholinar (ugly old man) stayed intact, but the partial illusion covering the scars did not. I assumed it was related to his view of himself, but if that's the case, why didn't the scars appear on the old man disguise? 

Those scars are the turning point of his whole life.  Sort of like how Kelsier flaring Malatium near death give him a glimpse of the moment LR Ascended, flaring malatium at Kaladin in a similar circumstance would show him receiving those brands.  Kaladin views himself and his whole life as revolving around that moment.

I have always wanted to ask Brandon though if Kaladin's Bridge 4 tattoo would finally "stick" if he didn't try to apply it over the scars.  If the tattoo was applied next to the slave brand would it still heal away?

[Starla]

@Subvisual Haze Do you feel like the brands didn't show through the old man illusion because that was depicting someone else entirely? The old man would not have the brands so the illusion sticks, whereas Kaladin as himself would have the brands so the forehead-only illusion doesn't stick. 

Interesting question about the tattoo. I bet it would be difficult for any surgebinder to get a tattoo, since it is an injury and stormlight would heal it. I bet Kaladin would be able to keep the tattoo if he went through a no-stormlight phase while it heals. 

[Subvisual Haze]

I think when you heal the stormlight is using your mental pattern of what you believe you look like (like a restore point for a corrupted computer file).  Kaladin believes the scars are a part of him.  I'm pretty sure nobody else in Bridge 4 lost their tattoos even after using stormlight though.

Magic is the cosmere is also pretty sympathy based.  The more you stretch an illusion (the less believable), the quicker it will fail.  Kaladin can imagine himself being an ugly old man, but on a fundamental level Kaladin can't see himself as someone without a scar, so that part of the illusion quickly breaks down.

[aurik he/him]

So one wonders... now that Amaram is dead, if Kaladin can start to heal those spiritual wounds from his betrayal and enslavement?

[Calyx]

24 minutes ago, aurik said:

So one wonders... now that Amaram is dead, if Kaladin can start to heal those spiritual wounds from his betrayal and enslavement?

My guess is that this won't happen until he speaks at least the 4th ideal.

[RShara she/her]

1 hour ago, Starla said:

@Subvisual Haze Do you feel like the brands didn't show through the old man illusion because that was depicting someone else entirely? The old man would not have the brands so the illusion sticks, whereas Kaladin as himself would have the brands so the forehead-only illusion doesn't stick. 

Interesting question about the tattoo. I bet it would be difficult for any surgebinder to get a tattoo, since it is an injury and stormlight would heal it. I bet Kaladin would be able to keep the tattoo if he went through a no-stormlight phase while it heals. 

It has to do with how they view themselves. Kaladin views himself as scarred and so nothing that tries to hide them will stick, and they don't heal.  The other bridgemen don't feel their brands are part of them any more, so their tattoos stay.  They do feel that their brands are SOME part of them, though, otherwise the brands would just fade.

[Starla]

I still feel like a new tattoo would heal no matter how the person sees themselves, if that person were holding stormlight while they were getting the tattoo, or perhaps during the first couple weeks. A tattoo is an injury. It breaks the skin and there is often blood, skin irritation, scabs, etc. I suppose it is possible for the person to hold a very clear vision of the new tattoo in their mind until the wound heals, but that would take a lot of focus and concentration for an extended period. You're basically telling your body "please don't heal this injury, I want to keep it."

Once the tattoo has healed, then I believe the surgebinder could keep it if they identify it as part of themselves. Aside from Kaladin, all of Bridge Four's tattoos had fully healed by the time they could use stormlight, so we'll never know if theirs would have healed when they first got it.

[RShara she/her]

40 minutes ago, Starla said:

I still feel like a new tattoo would heal no matter how the person sees themselves, if that person were holding stormlight while they were getting the tattoo, or perhaps during the first couple weeks. A tattoo is an injury. It breaks the skin and there is often blood, skin irritation, scabs, etc. I suppose it is possible for the person to hold a very clear vision of the new tattoo in their mind until the wound heals, but that would take a lot of focus and concentration for an extended period. You're basically telling your body "please don't heal this injury, I want to keep it."

Once the tattoo has healed, then I believe the surgebinder could keep it if they identify it as part of themselves. Aside from Kaladin, all of Bridge Four's tattoos had fully healed by the time they could use stormlight, so we'll never know if theirs would have healed when they first got it.

Their image of themselves doesn't have to be that specific.  They see themselves as tattoo'd so the tattoo and the injury would stay.  It seems to only take a short while for an injury to become a part of someone. Near the end of OB, there are a number of people Renarin can't heal, because their soul has already accepted that they are injured.

[Vortaan he/him]

4 hours ago, RShara said:

It has to do with how they view themselves. Kaladin views himself as scarred and so nothing that tries to hide them will stick, and they don't heal.  The other bridgemen don't feel their brands are part of them any more, so their tattoos stay.  They do feel that their brands are SOME part of them, though, otherwise the brands would just fade.

I don't think this is quite what's going on, or they should have shown up in the old man disguise. What I think happens is that Kaladin doesn't know what the old man disguise is supposed to look like, so his view of himself isn't altered. When Shallan just disguises the scars though he does know what he's supposed to look like and corrects accordingly.

[Starla]

@RShara You nearly have me convinced about the tattoo. Though to complicate matters, I wonder if Shallan got a Ghostbloods tattoo (a real one, not an illusion), would it stick if she only associates her Veil persona with the Ghostbloods? I'm thinking it wouldn't. So many identity issues with our dear radiants...

[RShara she/her]

49 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

I don't think this is quite what's going on, or they should have shown up in the old man disguise. What I think happens is that Kaladin doesn't know what the old man disguise is supposed to look like, so his view of himself isn't altered. When Shallan just disguises the scars though he does know what he's supposed to look like and corrects accordingly.

Well, nothing you said exactly contradicts what I said.  It clarifies it.  And I do agree--he doesn't see the old man as himself at all, so it's unaltered.  But when it's himself, just without scars, he unconsciously changes it.