[OB] My thoughts on Taravangian

[WalterWhiteVevo]

This seems to be a somewhat unpopular opinion on these forums but I honestly loved Taravangian as a character, and though I didn't always agree with his choices, I always found myself rooting for him. His perspective has always been my favorite in the series, and his interlude in WoR has easily been my favorite moment throughout all of the Stormlight Archive so far. I just love the way that he lives in a ruse and uses the ruse to act as the ultiimate utilitarian but still sees the evil in his actions. What are your thoughts on Taravangian as a character?

[digitalbusker he/him]

I think he's interesting, but so far I don't see him on track to actually accomplish anything good. Do we know anything he's deliberately done that was good, from an opposing-Odium standpoint? I'm not talking about second order effects like inspiring heroes to combat his villainy, I mean a plan to help the world that has been executed successfully.

[kaellok he/him]

i liked him better in WoK and WoR.  In OB, we find out how stupid the Diagram's point really is--fight annihilation by capitulating to its author?  The question before was, "Wow, I wonder if Mr T's alternate method of saving the world, in comparison to the Radiant's, will actually work!"  Now it is, "Just how many people will be killed because of this useless plan?"

Really not understanding any love for Mr T's long-term plans post-OB.

[Guest Procrastinationspren]

I love the concept of the character. Some days smart, some days dumb. Is willing to sacrifice many in order to save a few because he thinks that otherwise they all die. But my personal theory is that, in the end, supergenius Taravagian will have fooled everyone (even himself) with the Diagram and will end up either saving them or at least doing something really good. Him or maybe Cultivation herself, since she seems pretty good at future sight.

[WalterWhiteVevo]

On 12/12/2017 at 4:13 AM, kaellok said:

i liked him better in WoK and WoR.  In OB, we find out how stupid the Diagram's point really is--fight annihilation by capitulating to its author?  The question before was, "Wow, I wonder if Mr T's alternate method of saving the world, in comparison to the Radiant's, will actually work!"  Now it is, "Just how many people will be killed because of this useless plan?"

Really not understanding any love for Mr T's long-term plans post-OB.

I love Taravangian and his plan post-OB not necessarily because it is incredibly wise or feasible, because it is an alternative that represents a moralistic gray area. One thing I love about the stormlight archive and the cosmere as a whole is the shades of gray that persist with any scenario. And though his plan may have seriously lost some traction I find it interesting nonetheless because it is a different approach to the problem than what the radiants have to offer.

[MPHRD]

I don't actually think Taravangian is actually working for Odium, I think he is a double agent. Odium somehow can't see the entire Diagram.

Quote

There. Behind where the bed had stood. A section of words that had faded from golden to black. What was that? As he drew near, Taravangian saw that the words were blacked out into eternity starting from this point on his wall. As if something had happened here. A ripple in what Odium could see …
At its root, a name. Renarin Kholin.”

 

The diagram has something up its sleeve related to Renarin Kholin.

[Cenanin]

On 12/11/2017 at 6:01 PM, WalterWhiteVevo said:

This seems to be a somewhat unpopular opinion on these forums but I honestly loved Taravangian as a character, and though I didn't always agree with his choices, I always found myself rooting for him. His perspective has always been my favorite in the series, and his interlude in WoR has easily been my favorite moment throughout all of the Stormlight Archive so far. I just love the way that he lives in a ruse and uses the ruse to act as the ultiimate utilitarian but still sees the evil in his actions. What are your thoughts on Taravangian as a character?

I think Taravangian is going to suffer a very, very bad demise. Along with Kharbranth. Thing is he isn't an ultimate utilitarian. He's ultimate evil. When he's stupid enough to be compassionate he doesn't hold his cold intelligent self back. When he's cold and intelligent he commits Hitler level atrocities. He doesn't hope for his idiot compassionate self because it brings him pain but it doesn't over rule his ambition, it's all about Mr.T to Mr.T. He made a deal with Odium to save "his people", after he saw Odium defeated, and after Odium told him he wouldn't spare the world if they were under T's rule. IMO Mr.T is the most evil of any of the characters. He has the capacity and ability to save the world. Which is exactly what he asked for. But he isn't using it to save the world, he's using it to rule the world because he is a selfish old see you next tuesday. He has placed all his faith in the "diagram" when all he needs to do is help Dalinar to save the world. Which was demonstrated for him hours before he made a deal with the devil. He's selfish, evil, arrogant, power-mongering, and has killed at least hundreds of thousands on a quest for power(to rule the world). He thinks that the boon is his curse, and his curse is his boon. The boon is he was given the compassion to save the world. The curse was he was given the intelligence to save the world(in his image). He's also super shortsighted and can't even figure the diagram out. The only thing he has figured out for sure is his compassionate self, which he loathes.

Also: Jasnah. Could she be a member of the Diagram? Her ends justify the means attitude seems to complement Mr.T remarkably, and I remember her spending a ton and ton of time around Taravangian in WoK.

[Cenanin]

On 12/11/2017 at 9:05 PM, Ookla the Busker said:

I think he's interesting, but so far I don't see him on track to actually accomplish anything good. Do we know anything he's deliberately done that was good, from an opposing-Odium standpoint? I'm not talking about second order effects like inspiring heroes to combat his villainy, I mean a plan to help the world that has been executed successfully.

If Cultivation gave him the boon/curse like she did Dalinar, I think he really messed up if his intent is actually to save the world. She told Dalinar what she was going to do was very dangerous and could be disastrous but ultimately would be up to him. Dalinar chose correctly. Taravangian chose poorly. His compassion is his boon and his curse is the intelligence. It's all about symmetry. Dalinar/Taravangian, Szeth/Kaladin, Honor/Odium.

[Blackhoof]

On 12/12/2017 at 10:13 PM, kaellok said:

i liked him better in WoK and WoR.  In OB, we find out how stupid the Diagram's point really is--fight annihilation by capitulating to its author?  The question before was, "Wow, I wonder if Mr T's alternate method of saving the world, in comparison to the Radiant's, will actually work!"  Now it is, "Just how many people will be killed because of this useless plan?"

Really not understanding any love for Mr T's long-term plans post-OB.

Actually, as Odium says the plan (as the Diagram interpreted it at least) was to get Odium to agree to save everyone that Mr T ruled, which he planned to be the whole world. But without the nonce to negotiate properly, Mr T fluffed his chance at the deal because Odium saw through it so easily.

But, the thing is, maybe him and his gang misinterpreted the Diagram completely. And as was seen, the Diagram is wrong about some key things, such as Dalinar turning. I would bet that the last thing Mr T has before he dies is a moment of realisation that he had gotten a key point wrong, and that he had made a deal with evil for nothing.

[Song she/her]

7 hours ago, MPHRD said:

 

The diagram has something up its sleeve related to Renarin Kholin.

I am not sure the diagram has a plan for him. I think it is just that Renarin is a wildcard. No one knows what his influence will be. Therefore smart/cruel Mr T can't predict how he fits and Odium can't see his role in the future.

[Storms! he/him]

I think the Diagram itself is part of the subterfuge. As others have pointed out, the original concept of "make a deal to protect my kingdom, then become king of everything" is so simple, that I believe Odium was meant to see through it. In order for the bluff to work though, you have to make it look like you're trying, hence the takeover of JKeved.

If T was so brilliant when he made the Diagram, then it stands to reason that he was smart enough to realize that Odium would be able to read/interpret it. That is the entire point. It is a classic misdirection, just on a grand scale. It's all meant to bait Odium into certain actions, presumably to put Him in a position to be vulnerable.

It also stands to reason that genius T knew that Odium would never negotiate on one of T's smart days. So why put in the "negotiate from a position of strength" line? It's part of the misdirection. If Odium is confident that T and the Diagram are not a threat, then He is much more likely to let his guard down.

T is basically playing the Severus Snape role. We are going to hate him for a long time and he is going to do some awful things. In the end though, it will be his actions that ultimately make Odium vulnerable to be defeated by someone else.

 

Edit: Basically, I just don't accept the narrative of "Odium saw through the Diagram, therefore it is moot and T is now a traitor." Genius T knew that would happen and planned for it

Edited December 15, 2017 by Storms!

[Calyx]

On 12/13/2017 at 10:15 PM, Cenanin said:

Also: Jasnah. Could she be a member of the Diagram? Her ends justify the means attitude seems to complement Mr.T remarkably, and I remember her spending a ton and ton of time around Taravangian in WoK.

I believe there is a moment in one of Taravangian's viewpoints (before Jasnah returns) where he reflects that the diagram won't need to kill her.

Also, from a moral standpoint, Jasnah is a far, far better person than Taravangian.

[Llarimar he/him]

On 12/11/2017 at 7:01 PM, WalterWhiteVevo said:

This seems to be a somewhat unpopular opinion on these forums but I honestly loved Taravangian as a character, and though I didn't always agree with his choices, I always found myself rooting for him. His perspective has always been my favorite in the series, and his interlude in WoR has easily been my favorite moment throughout all of the Stormlight Archive so far. I just love the way that he lives in a ruse and uses the ruse to act as the ultiimate utilitarian but still sees the evil in his actions. What are your thoughts on Taravangian as a character?

I agree, though I've been a bit nervous to say it because of all the rancor expressed towards him.  I really like Taravangian as a character, and he fascinates me.  I constantly find myself rooting for Taravangian, and wanting more viewpoint chapters from him.  I have been a bit surprised by all the posts I've seen in various threads about Taravangian, calling him demented and irredeemably evil.  People seem to hate Taravangian, and see him as one of the worst villains in the book.  He is called the worst character in the series, and is used as a standard of evil by which to judge other characters.  

I, however, have never been able to see Taravangian as anything but a genuinely well-meaning, earnest old man who honestly believes his intentions are good.  When it was first revealed at the end of WoK that Taravangian was the one ordering around Szeth, and that he had been killing people in his hospitals, rather than being disgusted by him I was fascinated.  I didn't think for a moment that he was actually "evil," but rather thought right away that there was simply more to him than was previously thought.  He is complex, multilayered character, and despite his brutal actions, he is consistently characterized as moral and well-meaning, which colors him with a sort of transfixing dichotomy.  

I think it's important to remember that Dalinar is a brutal, merciless warlord at times - especially in his flashbacks.  He even candidly asks Hoid in WoK, "am I a tyrant?" to which Hoid replies, "Yes, but you're what this world needs right now" (paraphrasing).  Everyone can accept that despite his brutal methods, Dalinar is categorically a good guy, and that he is exactly what Roshar needs.  He might not have a spotless record, but he has good intentions, and his darker sides are what give him the wisdom and experience.

I see Taravangian in exactly the same way.  He may do terrible things at times, but desperate times call for desperate measures, and I think it's quite possible that as the Stormlight series accelerates, the actions of Taravangian will prove to be exactly what is needed to topple Odium from a direction he least expects it.  I would be quite surprised if Taravangian unceremoniously dies or if nothing productive is accomplished by the Diagram - I think Taravangian is a key player for the future of the series (depending on how long he lives), who will have a satisfying story arc and a noble, perhaps even heroic death.  

Edited December 15, 2017 by Llarimar

[Rainier]

12 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

I agree, though I've been a bit nervous to say it because of all the rancor expressed towards him.  I really like Taravangian as a character, and he fascinates me.  I constantly find myself rooting for Taravangian, and wanting more viewpoint chapters from him.  I have been a bit surprised by all the posts I've seen in various threads about Taravangian, calling him demented and irredeemably evil.  People seem to hate Taravangian, and see him as one of the worst villains in the book.  He is called the worst character in the series, and is used as a standard of evil by which to judge other characters.  

I really like him too. I like the contrast with Szeth, who thinks he doesn't have a choice but knows he does. Taravangian knows he's evil but continually tries to justify his horrible crimes, just like Szeth. Where Szeth pushes responsibility onto others, Taravangian accepts the responsibility willingly, but justifies it by telling himself it's necessary, and thus even though it's his fault and his choice, it's still better than inaction.

14 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

I, however, have never been able to see Taravangian as anything but a genuinely well-meaning, earnest old man who honestly believes his intentions are good.  When it was first revealed at the end of WoK that Taravangian was the one ordering around Szeth, and that he had been killing people in his hospitals, rather than being disgusted by him I was fascinated.  I didn't think for a moment that he was actually "evil," but rather thought right away that there was simply more to him than was previously thought.  He is complex, multilayered character, and despite his brutal actions, he is consistently characterized as moral and well-meaning, which colors him with a sort of transfixing dichotomy.  

I love this paragraph, and I think his conversations with Dalinar show exactly what kind of person he is. Again, he justifies himself however he needs to, which is fascinating, but he's doing it because he wants to help. He's doing it because if he doesn't, humanity is driven from Roshar.

Despite his betrayal at the end of OB, I'm with you. I want more Taravangian. I want more scenes of the Diagram. I want more morality lectures with Dalinar. And I want more hints at who is responsible for the Diagram and what the results of it will be.

[Calderis he/him]

On 12/11/2017 at 6:01 PM, WalterWhiteVevo said:

This seems to be a somewhat unpopular opinion on these forums but I honestly loved Taravangian as a character, and though I didn't always agree with his choices, I always found myself rooting for him. His perspective has always been my favorite in the series, and his interlude in WoR has easily been my favorite moment throughout all of the Stormlight Archive so far. I just love the way that he lives in a ruse and uses the ruse to act as the ultiimate utilitarian but still sees the evil in his actions. What are your thoughts on Taravangian as a character?

Taravangian is my favorite character as well. I've been very vocal about my feelings in the past and I'm right there with you. 

I'm going to just copy paste something I wrote in another thread here, because its easier than repeating myself. 

Quote

Taravangian has capitulated. Apparently, that was his goal from the start. Create a position of power and negotiate a deal with Odium. 

Obviously this didn't go as planned. 

OR DID IT!?! 

The Diagram has, inadvertently, aided Dalinar every step of the way. The chaos created by Taravangian's use of Szeth directly set up the grounds for Dalinar to create his coalition. 

The release of information to undermine him led to the events in Thaylen Field. 

Since the beginning, I have believed that the Diagram is the work of Cultivation. It's methods reek of her intent. After seeing what she did with Dalinar's boon, I'm sure that Taravangian is being manipulated in a similar manner, for a different reason. 

Dalinar was manipulated to be able to resist Odium and possibly reform the Shard of Honor. Taravangian... Is being set up to undermine Odium from the inside. 

In Taravangian's meeting with Odium, the Diagram is laid large, and yet Odium is blind to certain aspects of it. There is nothing that can convince me a Shard can be blinded to the written word without either another shards involvement, or circumstances such as seen with metal in Mistborn, which to our knowledge do not exist on Roshar. 

So as I see it, Cultivation now has a pawn placed inside Odium's circle. Odium believes that Taravangian will be working for him, and he has no reason to doubt this as Taravangian believes it himself. I will be completely unsurprised though, if in short order, the Diagram gets an update. 

It's new direction will seem to work towards helping Odium achieve his goals. It will, unfortunately, slightly diverge from its apparent goals, and as with the previous outcomes, work in The Radiants favor. 

Cultivation is subtle. She is the web weaver, all about the long con. Taravangian is her trump card, and his role as Odium's human servant has given him the "capacity" to save the world. Exactly like he asked for. 

Add in that "smart" T is not going to hold himself to a decision made by stupid T and there you go. 

[Cenanin]

34 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Taravangian is my favorite character as well. I've been very vocal about my feelings in the past and I'm right there with you. 

I'm going to just copy paste something I wrote in another thread here, because its easier than repeating myself. 

Add in that "smart" T is not going to hold himself to a decision made by stupid T and there you go. 

Too bad he made a deal with a Shard. He'll be held to it. I don't think there's any extra depth here. I don't think it's misdirection. I think T fluffed his boon/curse up. I think the curse was the intelligence. The boon compassion. He failed miserably. He'll pay for it dearly.

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Cenanin said:

Too bad he made a deal with a Shard. He'll be held to it. I don't think there's any extra depth here. I don't think it's misdirection. I think T fluffed his boon/curse up. I think the curse was the intelligence. The boon compassion. He failed miserably. He'll pay for it dearly.

What's holding him to anything? Yeah, Odium would be pissed and he'd pay for it, but if people could be "held" to agreements with Shards these books wouldn't be happening, because the Heralds couldn't have walked away from the Oathpact. 

[Storms! he/him]

10 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

Too bad he made a deal with a Shard. He'll be held to it. I don't think there's any extra depth here. I don't think it's misdirection. I think T fluffed his boon/curse up. I think the curse was the intelligence. The boon compassion. He failed miserably. He'll pay for it dearly.

It is my understanding that Dalinar's deal is only binding because he is a Bondsmith. T has no spren, what would make this deal binding?

[Cenanin]

6 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

What's holding him to anything? Yeah, Odium would be pissed and he'd pay for it, but if people could be "held" to agreements with Shards these books wouldn't be happening, because the Heralds couldn't have walked away from the Oathpact. 

What's holding him to it is Odium will destroy JK if he breaks the contract. Mr T is a bad dude. A real bad dude. I don't know how anyone doesn't see that. He wants to rule the world not save it. He only thinks he wants to save it. If he wanted to save the world he'd let his compassionate side dominate and go all in on Dalinar. 
He asked for the acumen and compassion to save the world. He got it. But there's always a curse and it's not the compassion.

"Kill those minstrel boys now!".....fascinating - 17th shard

Lol what? No, he's literally Hitler.

[Cenanin]

3 minutes ago, Storms! said:

It is my understanding that Dalinar's deal is only binding because he is a Bondsmith. T has no spren, what would make this deal binding?

What wouldn't make the deal binding? He literally just said he'd sacrifice the rest of the world for JK. 

His family and subjects deaths and enslavement might hold him to the deal.

[Calderis he/him]

8 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

What wouldn't make the deal binding? He literally just said he'd sacrifice the rest of the world for JK. 

His family and subjects deaths and enslavement might hold him to the deal

But you just said that when he's smart he doesn't care about anything. If he doesn't care about anything, why would those things matter? 

Keep believing whatever you want. We'll see how it plays out. In my opinion, there's to much build up for anything with Taravangian to be as simple as you want it to be. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Ookla, the Incalculable

[Cenanin]

1 minute ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

But you just said that when he's smart he doesn't care about anything. If he doesn't care about anything, why would those things matter? 

Keep believing whatever you want. We'll see how it plays out. In my opinion, there's to much build up for anything with Taravangian to be as simple as you want it to be. 

I agree there's more to build up "around" Taravangian. But I think he's just a sociopath tool. Why does everyone think the boon is the intelligence? It's obviously not. He needs to completely ignore his intelligent self to save the world.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

I agree there's more to build up "around" Taravangian. But I think he's just a sociopath tool. Why does everyone think the boon is the intelligence? It's obviously not. He needs to completely ignore his intelligent self to save the world.

The Nightwatcher gives clear cut boons and curses. Like we saw with Dalinar, and seems to be the case with Lift as well, Cultivation is not so limited. 

They are both his boon. The curse is their lack of integration. Writing off either is a problem. Yes, he's a sociopath on his smart days, and he's aware of it. That precisely the reason they have pieces in place to contain him.

[fievelgoespostal]

I think Mr T's whole plan is fundamentally flawed and simply cannot work. His entire Diagram/plan revolves around him ultimately being in charge and dealing/making a deal with Odium.  The idea that he is capable of this( not just dealing with Odium, but managing the coalition ) is simply incomprehensible.  We have a man that half the time barely has the combined cognitive ability of a cucumber, and he is somehow the only one who is able to see the world thru this mess? It just doesnt make sense on a fundamental level.  It would be more believable if the Diagram has him as senior advisor or helping someone with faculties navigate...but him being in charge?  Nah..doesnt compute

[Blackhoof]

19 hours ago, Llarimar said:

I think it's important to remember that Dalinar is a brutal, merciless warlord at times - especially in his flashbacks.  He even candidly asks Hoid in WoK, "am I a tyrant?" to which Hoid replies, "Yes, but you're what this world needs right now" (paraphrasing).  Everyone can accept that despite his brutal methods, Dalinar is categorically a good guy, and that he is exactly what Roshar needs.  He might not have a spotless record, but he has good intentions, and his darker sides are what give him the wisdom and experience.

I see Taravangian in exactly the same way.  He may do terrible things at times, but desperate times call for desperate measures, and I think it's quite possible that as the Stormlight series accelerates, the actions of Taravangian will prove to be exactly what is needed to topple Odium from a direction he least expects it.  I would be quite surprised if Taravangian unceremoniously dies or if nothing productive is accomplished by the Diagram - I think Taravangian is a key player for the future of the series (depending on how long he lives), who will have a satisfying story arc and a noble, perhaps even heroic death.  

The difference, I think, is that Dalinar doesn't say, "wow, burning Rathalas sure solved lots of problems, and was justified in the end. I'm going to take that idea and use it to unify the whole world!"

No, he is horrified about it, and spends literally all of OB rejecting his bloodthirsty past and the idea of "destination before journey" and in the end has a peaceful, cooperative coalition for it. Had he embraced the dark side, he would be wasting his time trying to conquer Azir while the Voidbringers ran rampant.

Dalinar and Taravangian are complete opposites. Dalinar sees his past as a mistake to learn from, and Taravangian is happily living that mistake right now, every day when he does risky things that could doom humanity just because the Diagram said it might be a good idea for cucumber Taravangian to MAYBE seize control of the coalition. Taravangian is the opposite of what the world needs right now, whereas Dalinar is exactly what it needs.

However, I agree with this general theory that the Diagram is a long con to get Mr T as a sleeper agent within Odium's forces. For the Diagram to be built up just to be thwarted by idiot T and rendered useless is... pointless. Are we to believe that Genius T made this whole plan that in the end boiled down to "make a deal with Odium once he thinks he needs you to save "everyone you rule", but once he sees through that obvious ploy, to save Kharbranth. Whoopee."? No, that would be absurd. The Diagram was made for a purpose, and a higher one than merely saving Kharbranth, and made by someone who would predict the weakness of idiot T and the cunning of Odium.