[OB] The problem with Adolin

[SomeRandomPeasant]

I would like to polity and respectfully ask why some readers like Adolin, because right now I hate him.  Sure, I would love to be his drinking buddy or friend, but   as a character I fail to see any compelling inner conflict or struggles.  He's just to good to be true.  It bugs me that a main character is that, especially in a book in which everyone is broken, where the Heralds themselves turned their back on humanity at the very beginning of the book. It is hard to care for him when he is written alongside:

•  A: A young women who is apparently suffering a mental breakdown due in part of a lack of a self assured identity and past emotional trauma at the hands of an initially well meaning father 
• B: Mr. Chronic Hero Syndrome (which thank god is proper deconstruction) who is being constantly thrust into situations that he fears           most (watching those he worked to protect die while he survives, and his struggle with depression) 

With such a wide and varied cast, there is no way someone will like all of them, and that's good.  My favorites happen to be Jasnah, Szeth, and, after Oathbringer, Dalinar, in that order. But even those who I don't personally like I can say that they are well written, compelling characters that add something to the story.  For example, I personally don't like Lift, but there is no doubt value in showcasing a destitute street urchin seeking a higher and vital purpose.  It is interesting to see such a bizarre and chaotic child become a freakin Knights Radiant. 

I want to understand so could Adolin fans please explain why his story is worth caring about or is compelling in any way.  There are no wrong answers, I just don't see him being
worthy of holding up the mantle of a main character, especially when we have yet to see much insight into his brother.

I will say that while I don't like him at the moment, my thoughts of Adolin are similar to how I thought of Dalinar in the beginning of Way of Kings. Dalinar at first was also to noble, even though he
had struggles with putting honor before reason.  But Dalinar's growth has been nothing short of amazing and his slow change from becaming a diplomat to forming a coletion to seeking forgivness have injected depth into his character, depth that right now Adolin simply does not have.  Back in Words of Radiance, my ears started to perk up a bit when I read Adolin showing a thirst for battle during his duels.  However, this plot point seems to have fizzled out and, after Oathbringer, going down this path would obviously be redundant.  But like I mentioned above, I have grown to love Dalinar, despite his less then interesting beginning, the same could happen to Adolin.  But three books later and I still having doubts seeing the point of Adolin.

Until his character gets interesting I will be calling him "Poor Man's Dalinar".  Hopefully this will change, maybe he will be worthy of the name "A(n)dolinsm".  Am I alone in hating him? Why is he so popular with readers?

Edited December 4, 2017 by SomeRandomPeasant

[MonsterMetroid]

I actually kind of enjoy him because if nothing else he acts as a watermark. He was the Height of power you could not aspire to be anything more than him in the first book and most of the second sense he was a shard bearer. But now with the Radiants coming back I have found it interesting to see him react to not only react to the voidringers coming back but also much more of a supporting role rather than the head honcho. I wish they dived into this a bit more into the books and why he might be feeling a bit of a inferiority complex. 

And he is by no means perfect. He accused his father of going mad wrongly and causing dalinar a LOT of doubt. He killed sadeas and probably allowed Odium to take over sadeas troops by doing so.

Is he the most exciting character? No. but he doesn't need to be Sometimes you just need the prince who has been given everything in life in a book.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

 He's just to good to be true.  It bugs me that a main character is that, especially in a book in which everyone is broken, where the Heralds themselves turned their back on humanity at the very beginning of the book. It is hard to care for him when he is written alongside:

•  A: A young women who is apparently suffering a mental breakdown due in part of a lack of a self assured identity and past emotional trauma at the hands of an initially well meaning father 
• B: Mr. Chronic Hero Syndrome (which thank god is proper deconstruction) who is being constantly thrust into situations that he fears           most (watching those he worked to protect die while he survives, and his struggle with depression) 

With such a wide and varied cast, there is no way someone will like all of them, and that's good.  My favorites happen to be Jasnah, Szeth, and, after Oathbringer, Dalinar, in that order. But even those who I don't personally like I can say that they are well written, compelling characters that add something to the story.  For example, I personally don't like Lift, but there is no doubt value in showcasing a destitute street urchin seeking a higher and vital purpose.  It is interesting to see such a bizarre and chaotic child become a freakin Knights Radiant. 

I want to understand so could Adolin fans please explain why his story is worth caring about or is compelling in any way.

The answer to this question comes from WoR. Many of us saw a huge potential with his character, a strong capacity to grow beyond the Prince Charming picture perfect image he had going on. We thought murdering Sadeas combined with everyone he knows being a Radiant would be the cataclysm which would throw his character into a self-defining phase where he'd be forced to re-evaluate himself. There were many clues this image of perfection, this "too good to be true" thing he had going on was just a front, an armor, something which would come off once the pressure got too high. 

There was many theories as to what may or may not happen to Adolin, but reality is Brandon strongly disagreed with all of us. What we saw as a complex, deep, really interesting character with a refreshing problematic, turned out being really disappointing in OB. About the only readers who liked Adolin in OB are those who didn't care so much about him to begin with or those content with how his character has been presented so far. Truth is, Adolin did not get a character arc, he did not get growth, he did not get hardships: oh he got them, but the author glossed over what they might have mean for him and yeah, in a book where every character is so messed up it became hard to read, having Adolin being so unexplored really clashed.

As such, I cannot convince you Adolin's story is worth caring about because I honestly to not think Brandon will ever write in a way which will make readers care. I personally think the story is weaker for it, but the author strongly disagrees with me and there's nothing I can do about it. Brandon writes the story he wants to write, he explores the characters as he thinks is suitable and, as far as I can tell, he want Adolin to be this picture perfect normal guy. He's however not convincing me and the inconsistencies he has created in the story will only grow bigger unless he decides to fix those.

[CarolaDavar]

Tbh, I actually really didn't Adolin for a while. I mean, he was fine to read, and I enjoying seeing other character's perspectives one him, but all the points you stated here really hung on me, and his chapters became difficult to read.

However, reading Oathbringer, I found myself enjoying the little things about Adolin. His love of fashion (even thouth I generally find anything about fashion cringe-worthy), and him being nice to other characters, even when he might have had reasons to do otherwise. Adolin is by far not my favorite character, but I do enjoy him.

Plus, now I, knowing his backstory (having to spend his teenagers with no mother, and a frankly awful father), feel  a lot more sympathy towards him.

You are fine to dislike him, I'd say. Everyone has their oppinions, but for me - things may be different for you- I tend to enjoy the story more if I do everything possible to find things I love about each character - big and small. (Exceptions should only include characters you are supposed to hate, like Sadeas or Amaram, but you can even try it with these ones too)

[Wolven]

I don't like or dislike Adolin.  He really is a very simplistic character.  But...that doesn't really bother me.  There is already a ton of very complex and interesting characters in this series.  There's gotta be at least a few who are a little more simple.  

[Dreamstorm]

16 minutes ago, Wolven said:

There's gotta be at least a few who are a little more simple.  

In real life, there are just some people which are a little more simple (ETA I don’t mean stupid, I just mean less troubled), have fewer mental health issues, even despite what they’ve been through. Sometimes these are the best people to spend time around, and sometimes I feel that’s what Adolin provides - he’s just so pleasant to spend time around. He does/did have a bit of an anger management problem where Sadeas was concerned, but it seems like it takes A LOT to push him to the brink. I also know people like that, so that’s not unrealistic either. In my opinion we’re not done with the Sadeas murder plot, and there’s something clearly going on with Maya, plus Adolin is the big link to Rira/Iri (IMO) through his mother and his shardplate (and we can be pretty sure that part of Roshar will be involved in future books), so I see a lot of places for his character to go in future books. Some see him as possibly going dark, though I personally don’t get that from his character except when really pushed, so that’s another potential direction for his character to go. Mostly I don’t want him to die! I find his contributions too enjoyable. As one poster said - he just makes you feel good. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[maxal]

15 minutes ago, Wolven said:

I don't like or dislike Adolin.  He really is a very simplistic character.  But...that doesn't really bother me.  There is already a ton of very complex and interesting characters in this series.  There's gotta be at least a few who are a little more simple.  

I personally find the story grows weaker when a character of importance such as Adolin is allowed to remain so simplistic, especially not when the clues we've got showed us there is no reason why.

[Wolven]

I don't think Adolin makes the story weaker at all though.  He is kind of a grounding force for some of the caracters, and I think this story especially, with so many broken people wandering around, really needs that.  

Plus, there are still seven more books yet to get through yet.  I am absolutely interested where this thing with Maya is going to go.  The potential is still there for Adolin to get deeper, but even if he doesn't, the story isn't going to suffer for it.

If you ask me, Adolin is likely a grounding force for Sanderson as well.  I can't imagine what he goes through mentally and emotionally writing so many broken and vulnerable characters.

 

[Greywatch]

I found Adolin really works for me as a reaction character, as in when things happen, I look to him to see how he reacts to it. I always find it entertaining, and whenever I'm worried he's going to react badly... Like, for me, I can't describe what a pleasant relief it is to have the dudebro character be so consistently good-natured. I realize this is exactly the point that other people find boring, but after a lifetime of being a woman reading other mainstream sff, and being expected to roll with heroic male characters say/do some really hinky garbage... I'm so glad Adolin has never made me feel like that. He takes up less story time than a main character, but he's not a minor character, either, so I've taken to calling him a supporting main. I don't think I'd go so far as others have and call him the boring normal - but I do enjoy seeing the guy with no superpowers happily rolling with the giant magic apocalypse plot he's been thrown into. He has no choice but to try and do his part; since so much of his family (which he is so enthusiastic about! I love how enthusiastic he is about how much he clearly likes, respects, and loves his family members, thank you Evi) is so central to what's happening, and he doesn't even think about peacing out, not a bit of "well, looks like you all have this!" 

In WoK, I think Brandon did well to set him up as a compare and contrast against Dalinar, and there's been that tension between "he seems primed to take over after Dalinar" vs "he's not/never going to be the man Dalinar is" which has been here for all three books and I'm on pins and needles seeing what's going to happen by the end of book 5 - which honestly, is when I'm expecting something to happen to Dalinar. 

He shines in his relationship with Renarin, and built one of my favourite relationships in the genre with Kaladin and what they have together as friends. He never felt to me like he takes advantage of his position, and seems to me thoughtful about his own current actions and future position. 

I really appreciate that he had the time to actually have the thoughts about whether he has a place in this world where his family and loved ones are all superheroes before Mayalaran happened, and I think if Adolin's arc is going to pick up into him gaining superpowers as well, I'm glad at least any page time was spent on him realizing that he just has to accept his position as the non-powers guy. I feel like it's tougher for him, because he so genuinely likes all these superpowered folks around him, he doesn't even allow himself the option of being bitter about it. Why be bitter if it's his father/brother/wife/aunt/best friend, who he clearly really likes? I thought it was a high mark of his character that he doesn't feel bitter about it. Just... maybe sad and uncertain.

I'm about ready to drop, but I really want to go longer on this, so perhaps I'll pick it up in the morning! 

[djammmer]

Love love love Adolin.  Especially after OB.  Love him when we see him at his youngest, wanting to be a warrior making his own armor... Telling his dad he will earn his own shard and plate.  Love that he has his moms gentleness and kindness.  Love how he gets along with his brother.  Love his chivalry towards Shallan, even offering to bow out b/c of how she looks at Kallidan.

but especially I love is interpersonal awareness... When Shallan is keeping to many secrets and how he gently gets her to feel ok about herself.  And also especially how dealt with Kallidan after they lost the battle and ended up in shadesmar.  He knew how to recognize depressed warriors, and he helped Kallidan through it.

in wok, Kallidan was a side character to me.  Now he's one of my favorites.

[Calderis]

48 minutes ago, Ookla the Grey said:

I'm about ready to drop, but I really want to go longer on this, so perhaps I'll pick it up in the morning

Please do. You pretty much expressed what I wanted to say here and couldn't find the words for. 

He's definitely not some perfect shiny happy person like some people seem to think, but his willingness to be supportive of others makes that view understandable. 

[Guest]

The biggest problem I have with Adolin is that he is getting everything handed on a silver platter and is a bit of a yes man. He really needs to get pushed to the brink first before he stands up for himself. It was better when he was head to head with his father in TWoK, but it got worse and worse.

Sure, he might have some dark spots in his past, but I never get the feeling, that they really affect him and he hardly ever reflects upon them. I don't think, that they are a contributing factor to his character.

The one flaw he has (or had, I wouldn't be surprised if it never came up again), his temper, didn't have any consequences for him either, so he's back to being flawless for me, which makes him boring IMO. He even seemingly gets his Radiancy handed just like that, because, of course, he happens to wield a dead Edgedancer Shardblade and, of course, his general attitude towards anything is just what he needs to do to revive Maya.

I'd like to have Adolin more interesting, but right now he's just a shoulder to cry on for our main characters.

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC

[Kingsdaughter613]

For the record, I actually know people like this.

I have an aunt who had miscarriage, followed by a stillbirth (and it was her second sb!) and is whole.

My daughter almost died at two months and may never be fully well (though I hope she will be), but while I’m still healing I’m far from a broken mess.

My infant paternal grandfather and his three year old brother were hidden with a French family during WW2. My grandfather didn’t meet his mother until he was five. His oldest brother - who was only six!- was hidden in a monastery. My great uncle, despite being a child, spent the war getting in trouble for not bowing to a cross. He deliberately got kitchen duty so he could keep Kosher. (You want to talk about unrealistic?! What were you doing at six years old?) My great grandparents hid in an attic during the war. Every. Single. One. of these people came out sane and continued their lives. They even adopted a daughter - the child of a cousin who was murdered. She’s normal too.

My paternal grandmother’s parents fled Italy. They climbed the Alps with their young daughter, my great aunt. My great-grandmother was pregnant with my grandmother at the time. Yes, they were normal.

My maternal grandfather (who was 16/17) and his younger sisters were deported in 1937 and spent 8 years in hell, thank to the Nazis. One sister got married in the DP camps. My grandfather rebuilt his entire life from scratch. All three started and raised families. And my grandfather was widely known to be a true gentleman and a genuinely kind individual. Did they suffer tremendously? Yes. Whole? No. Broken? Not visibly. (Internally is another story, but not to the extent of Kaladin and Shallan.) 

My family is one of raised by Holocaust Survivors and we were raised to be survivors. Maybe that’s why we react as we do; accepting pain and sorrow without letting it incapacitate. Maybe we are the strange ones. But people like my family do exist. 

And so do people like Adolin.

Honestly, it’s Kaladin I couldn't stand initially. Every time he started thinking about how ‘horrible’ his life was I think of my grandfather. (Please note this was how I reacted when first reading WoK as an older teen. By the time I reread it I had a much better understanding.)

He lost his brother? My grandfather carried his dead brother on his back through a war zone after said brother died immediately AFTER being liberated from Auschwitz. And his baby brother (who was under ten) was gassed with his mother. His father vanished without a trace in Russia after the war.

Kaladin had to run a bridge, while getting normal food and actually being paid? See Auschwitz above. 

You were betrayed by a couple of nobles Kaladin? Try being betrayed by the world, who couldn’t care less when Hitler annexed the Sudettanland. The war didn’t start until two years later.

So every time Kaladin started whining I would go ‘man, what a whimp. My grandfather was way stronger than you’ll ever be.’

Adolin I actually respected more. He picks up the pieces and moves on. How is that weak?

Isn’t being able to move on the greater strength?

(This is also why I love Disney’s Snow White. She comes from an abusive home, yet manages to retain her ability to love, to trust, to be compassionate. And she’s fourteen. There are people who go their whole lives trying to regain that. If I didn’t know RL people like that I’d think she was unrealistic. Since I do, I think she’s beyond awesome.)

Edited December 4, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Honestly, it’s Kaladin I can’t stand. Every time he starts thinking about how ‘horrible’ his life was I think of my grandfather.

He lost his brother? My grandfather carried his dead brother on his back through a war zone after said brother died immediately AFTER being liberated from Auschwitz. And his baby brother (who was under ten) was gassed with his mother. His father vanished without a trace in Russia after the war.

Kaladin had to run a bridge, while getting normal food and actually being paid? See Auschwitz above. 

You were betrayed by a couple of nobles Kaladin? Try being betrayed by the world, who couldn’t care less when Hitler annexed the Sudettanland. The war didn’t start until two years later.

So every time Kaladin starts whining I go ‘man, what a whimp. My grandfather was way stronger than you’ll ever be.’

Adolin I actually respect more. He picks up the pieces and moves on. How is that weak?

All understandable and I'm sorry, that your family had to go through stuff like this, but we are talking about fictional characters here and I don't think, that you can compare Adolin's and Kaladin's childhood/youth.

If we're being honest with ourselves, Adolin grew up privileged and sheltered. Kaladin had to survive, while losing his brother in a senseless war and his freedom, just because he did his duty.

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC

[Kingsdaughter613]

My point was that Adolin is not unrealistic. Many real life people experience awful things and come out unbowed and unshattered.

I was not comparing Kaladin’s life to Adolin’s. I compared it to someone who’s life was much worse as an extreme example to illustrate my point.

I keep coming across this idea that if you are not an emotional wreck after a terrible event you are either ‘unbroken’ or ‘unrealistic.’ And since I grew up around people who make 99% of the lives of characters I read about look like a walk in the park I know that neither is true. So this is kind of something that really bothers me.

My examples may be extreme, but that’s the point. My grandfather, who went through worse than Kaladin ever did, came out sane and a good, kind person. Adolin, who went through far less, is this not unrealistic for coming through as whole as he did.

I think the reason I love Mistborn so much is because the characters, especially in the first book, remind me of my family in their internal strength. I don’t relate nearly as well to the SA crew, the majority of whom lack that kind of strength. (I’m pretty sure Jasnah and Renarin have it, but we haven’t seen enough of them on screen.) I like Adolin and Lift very much however. (Dalinar too, because his issues are not due to his life but his actions.)

Edited December 4, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Guest]

@Kingsdaughter613

And my point is not, that Adolin is unrealistic, but that he is boring. Like many before, I wouldn't be opposed to him as a person, I'd probably would like to be friends with him, but I just don't think he is exciting to read, because of reasons I've already stated multiple times.

Also, Kaladin is depressed, but working through that. Quite frankly, calling him a whimp is an affront to every depressed person out there (and there are many) and one of the big reasons, why depression still has a huge social stigma attached to it. I'll assume, that his wasn't your intention. His depression doesn't make him insane nor a bad or unkind person. He is quite the opposite of that. I don't want to assume things, so please forgive me, if I'm wrong, but I'm sure, that your grandfather also felt, rightful, hate towards the nazis for what they did, but might have worked through that during the course of his life. It is the same for Kaladin. He is slowly working through his hate towards lighteyes and already made big progress.

[aemetha]

43 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My family is one of raised by Holocaust Survivors and we were raised to be survivors. Maybe that’s why we react as we do; accepting pain and sorrow without letting it incapacitate. Maybe we are the strange ones. But people like my family do exist. 

There is a documented personality archetype that was developed based on observations of some holocaust survivors that is consistent with what you describe. It's called the survivor personality type and is considered extremely adaptive in coping with stress. People who fall into this archetype typically take reasonable risks frequently, and so with minimal risk to themselves develop extensive coping resources, which allows them to quickly make good decisions with regularity.

However, I would argue that Adolin doesn't fall into this archetype at all. The decisions he makes are often ill judged, and the risks he takes not reasonable. He actually copes with stressful encounters quite badly. Which is the heart of what I don't like about him. He pretends to be normal and reasonable, and his actions are actually the opposite in many cases. He's completely impulsive. It's not a case of thinking quickly, he takes a faster option than that - not thinking at all.

[PhineasGage]

50 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My examples may be extreme, but that’s the point. My grandfather, who went through worse than Kaladin ever did

Ugh. I hate this kind of logic. I may be about to have a rant on this - be warned.

Seriously though, how do you benefit from telling other people they are whining and weak? 1 in 3 people will suffer from depression during the course of their lives, and the triggers for that depression are unique to each individual. Did it occur to you that anyone with depression in the death camps likely ended up executed earlier because they weren't coping and simply couldn't follow the orders they were given? Its not like the nazis had any sympathy for mental health issues. They executed people with all kinds of "mental" problems including intellectual disability and being gay because that was seen to be a mental health disorder at the time. Not being able to get out of bed because life just doesn't seem to be worth living would easily have gotten you killed in Birkenau. Obviously the horrors faced by people in the camps were appalling and I can only credit your grandfather and his family for managing through it all. But that doesn't mean everyone who made it out is like that. Plenty of holocaust survivors ended up with depression - are they weak?   https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/31810/holocaust-depression-dr-trappler-changes-1-1-06.pdf 

As I said, different things trigger different people. Some victims of rape get depressed, others don't. That doesn't make rape any less horrific for those who cope with it. And it doesn't make those who do weak. They might manage other scenarios just fine. And what about post-partum depression? Are you saying that those women should just snap out of it? That it is simply because they are weak? 

Depression doesn't make you weak. It makes you think the worst of yourself. It prevents any good thoughts and feelings getting to you. It isn't something you can just pull yourself out of because it doesn't let you think you can manage it. It tells you you are worthless and that no-one (including yourself) should bother with you. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Oh, he hated the Germans all his life. He just didn’t let it consume him.

@PhineasGageNo, I don’t think Kaladin is a whimp. My issue with him, at least before OB, was that he placed a lot of his misery on his life circumstances. When he was actually acknowledging the depression I liked him much better. I just, in general, REACT to characters whining about their horrible life circumstances in that manner. That does not mean I consider them, or any one else, to actually be a whimp.

I will acknowledge that it was a poorly phrased. It is how I react; that does not mean it is accurate. It’s just how I react in general to characters like this, including ones without depression. There is nothing wrong with such a reaction; what’s important is too acknowledge it, recognize the source, and move on by opening yourself up to possibilities beyond the initial reaction.

I actually think Kaladin is quite strong as a person, especially considering the lack of therapeutic services. I preferred the way his depression was handled in this book. I REALLY liked him realizing that he’d been feeling depressed before he had ‘reason’ too.

I(Yes, I am aware that the first people gassed were the mentally ill. This was in the 1930’s. I actually have researched the Holocaust extensively.)

It’s blaming circumstances that I react against, in part because it’s over used. Circumstances may EXCABERATE, or reveal underlying issues and/or stressors. Sometimes they activate certain genetic pathways. But they do not cause them. Trigger, yes, but not the ultimate cause. And it is not an excuse for improper behavior.

I don’t find Adolin’s lack of obvious internal conflict boring. He’s not the main character. I actually find it refreshing. It’s so rare characters that quietly manage to work through their issues. I think he’s fine where he is, and the conflict is there, just subtle, which is nice shift from Kaladin and Shallan.

But I think how we feel about individual characters is based on personal taste. You are entitled to your opinion, and I to mine.

It was the ‘unrealistic’ part I took issue with.

53 minutes ago, aemetha said:

There is a documented personality archetype that was developed based on observations of some holocaust survivors that is consistent with what you describe. It's called the survivor personality type and is considered extremely adaptive in coping with stress. People who fall into this archetype typically take reasonable risks frequently, and so with minimal risk to themselves develop extensive coping resources, which allows them to quickly make good decisions with regularity.

However, I would argue that Adolin doesn't fall into this archetype at all. The decisions he makes are often ill judged, and the risks he takes not reasonable. He actually copes with stressful encounters quite badly. Which is the heart of what I don't like about him. He pretends to be normal and reasonable, and his actions are actually the opposite in many cases. He's completely impulsive. It's not a case of thinking quickly, he takes a faster option than that - not thinking at all.

I did not know there was a Survivor archetype. That’s fascinating. As someone who comes from such a family, however, I can assure you we do stupid things. And idiotic, impulsive ones.

I think Evi was a survivor, and she gave some of the skill set to her sons. It doesn’t  compensate for the underlying personality. Renarin will still have self doubt and Adolin will still be impulsive. But when faced with trauma they will likely manage it better.

I’m impulsive. I lose my temper and do stupid things. I’ve still managed to hold myself together despite the past two years. (I’m not getting into it here. Suffice to say, my daughter got really sick and several family members passed away.) I doubt I would have handled it as well as I have without the way I was raised.

Archetypes are just that; over riding, primordial constructs of the collective unconsciousness. (I’m a Jungian; if you are not using the Jungian definition please let me know.) Reality is very different. Just as RL heroes are very different than the Heroic archetype, so too are RL Survivors. I know of plenty that did really stupid things that destroyed their families after the war. But they weren’t any less Survivors, as they still managed to reconstruct their lives.

I think Adolin and Renarin are Survivors in the same way I am; as children of a refugee, growing up on those stories and absorbing coping mechanisms. That doesn’t make me the person my great grandparents were. But if I’m faced with trauma I’m more likely to react in a way that lets me move on, instead of falling apart.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[aemetha]

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It’s blaming circumstances that I react against. Circumstances may EXCABERATE, or reveal underlying issues and/or stressors. Sometimes they activate certain genetic pathways. But they do not cause them. Trigger, yes, but not the ultimate cause.

That's an inaccurate interpretation of the diathesis-stress model. In that model a diathesis interacts with a stressor to cause a condition. It's not accurate to say one is the cause and the other is the trigger as that implies a greater contribution of one over the other. In reality there is a great deal of variability in which contributes more, amongst different individuals and conditions.

7 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Archetypes are just that; over riding, primordial constructs of the collective unconsciousness. (I’m a Jungian; if you are not using the Jungian definition please let me know.) Reality is very different. Just as RL heroes are very different than the Heroic archetype, so too are RL Survivors. I know of plenty that did really stupid things that destroyed their families after the war. But they weren’t any less Survivors, as they still managed to reconstruct their lives.

Actually, the personality constructs I am describing are a part of stress psychology which draws extensively on the cognitive school of thought, rather than the psychodynamic school. Like most psychology disciplines it is influenced by all the different schools, including psychodynamic emphasis on the unconscious and evolutionary drives as you describe here. Cognitive psychology however asserts that the unconscious is made up of mental processes that occur largely automatically and are how we structure our thoughts, congitions, behaviours and motivations in schemas. The suggestion that the survivor personality copes well with stress is typical of the cognitive school of thought whereby they employ schema's that have been developed to be more adaptive through the experience gained through reasonable risk taking.

12 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I did not know there was a Survivor archetype. That’s fascinating. As someone who comes from such a family, however, I can assure you we do stupid things. And idiotic, impulsive ones.

I don't doubt it. All people do idiotic and impulsive things some of the time. What typifies the survivor personality is making rational risk taking decisions regularly to develop resources that allow them to cope better when they do make those impulsive decisions. This is what I don't see in Adolin, he doesn't make the rational risk taking decisions to develop resources in this way, and so I don't see him fitting this personality archetype.

[PhineasGage]

11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, I don’t think Kaladin is a whimp. My issue with him, at least before OB, was that he placed a lot of his misery on his life circumstances.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So every time Kaladin starts whining I go ‘man, what a whimp. My grandfather was way stronger than you’ll ever be.’

You contradict yourself. You literally said that you think he's a wimp. I don't much care if you justify yourself by saying "That's just how I react" - it's not ok. Its a form of prejudice to immediately think someone with depression is weak. Given your family history I would have thought you'd realise how appalling prejudice and hate can be. Next time you post, maybe think about how someone with depression, or who knows someone with depression might feel about what you've said.

I was about to comment on the stress-diathesis model, but I see @aemetha has already done so. I'll just leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diathesis–stress_model

I don't know enough about personality archetypes to comment further, except to say that I was under the impression that psychodynamic models of Jung (and to an extent Freud) are largely replaced by cognitive psychology - as aemetha said. Sounds like Aemetha knows much more about this than I do? Perhaps you could share some information regarding this as I am interested?

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

 I’m in art therapy, which really tends to the psychoanalytic and humanistic schools of thought. Though some art therapists are Cognitive in their philosophy there aren’t many. So I haven’t had much experience with it in a while.

I was taught that mental illness is caused by a combination of biological and psychological factors. If both are present an appropriate trigger can cause the illness to manifest. In someone else it wouldn’t. So I consider the ‘cause’ to be the first two factors, and the event a trigger. 

I’ll do more research when I’m more alert.

@PhineasGage It might interest you to know that I have worked with people who are suicidal in in-patient psyche. We got on fine and it was a wonderful experience.  Real people are very different than characters in books! I also had a good friend who struggled with depression. We drifted apart after high school, which I regret.

I still do not have to enjoy reading about characters with that issue; nor do I have to like them. Actually, I generally hate reading about people with psychological disorders. It’s too close to my real life work. When I read I really just want to NOT think about it.

Personally, I have a non-verbal learning disability, which manifests similarly to Aspergers. I’ve worked on it all my life. My husband has Aspergers. He’s working on it. My daughter may never have normal brain function. My paternal grandmother has dementia. I’m not exactly unaware or quick to judge people with mental illness. I DO intend to do this for a living and it’s something I’ve dealt with all my life.

To clarify: my knee jerk reaction to ANY CHARACTER -not person- whining about their life circumstances causes me to react with ‘what a whimp.’ This is not just Kaladin, and that was prior to his suicide attempt. Kaladin actually has a decent reason, more so than many other characters I’ve read. For the most part I’m actually okay with him, even if he’s not a particular favorite of mine. (The other time I couldn’t stand it was during WoR, but that was due to my husband being somewhat depressed emotionally, if not clinically, because his father was dying. I wanted to be able to NOT deal with that, and Kaladin was being very depressed when I needed him not to be.) But that is an INITIAL reaction, not the final one. And it is NOT the despair and emptiness I react to. It’s actually the way the author writes the thought process that I’m reacting to, not the character him or her self. Once I get to know the character better my impressions change. I rarely experience that feeling on reread.

I should have written in past tense. I was describing my reaction when I first read WoK not how I felt reading OB. (Wow, that feels like a lifetime ago, but I still remember it vividly!) I was REALLY unclear, which is totally on me. 

I’m going to edit my post so that is accurate. I’m not always great at translating what’s in my head into words, especially when tired. And this was compounded by thinking of WoK and how I reacted then as though I was reacting now. When I’m tired I really remember things very vividly; I once watched an entire movie that way in my head. 

I should probably add so as to avoid future issues: it is 4AM and I can’t sleep because I don’t trust the temp nurse to take care of my daughter. (She almost messed up her vent settings earlier which was terrifying.)  So please understand if I’m not always completely clear. I’m exhausted and am trying to stay awake.

Argh! This stupid grammar check keeps switching my words and tenses. I am way too tired to catch this. If anyone sees any, let me know and I’ll try to fix it.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[kari-no-sugata]

We do see Adolin doing a fair amount of introspection. However, this mostly happens in Part 4 and I think it's rather drowned out by Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan's big bouts of heavy introspection. So by contrast he comes across as stronger and more stable. I think if we'd seen more of this in Parts 1-3 it would have made Adolin's character arc stronger, I think.

Chapter 83:

Quote

We’re entering an era of gods, Adolin thought.

Quote

The monster ripped apart the guard tower, then with a casual flip tossed a boulder the size of a horse toward them. Adolin gaped, feeling powerless as the rock inexorably hurtled toward him and the troops.

 

Chapter 89:

Quote

“I’m dead,” Adolin whispered. “We’re dead, and this is Damnation.”

Quote

Adolin stumbled back, horrified, and nearly slipped into the bead ocean. He kept his balance, barely, and found himself face-to-face with the woman with scratches for eyes. She stared at him, completely emotionless, as if waiting for him to try to summon his Shardblade so she could scream again.

Damnation. No matter what Azure said, he was certainly in Damnation.

Quote

Adolin felt useless.

All his life, he had understood. He’d taken easily to dueling. People naturally seemed to like him. Even in his darkest moment—standing on the battlefield and watching Sadeas’s armies retreat, abandoning him and his father—he’d understood what was happening to him.

Not today. Today he was just a confused little boy standing in Damnation.

Today, Adolin Kholin was nothing

Quote

Storms, he thought. Elhokar . . . Elhokar is dead.

Little Gav had been taken, and Dalinar was planning to abdicate. Third in line was . . . Adolin himself.

King.

So here we see Adolin confronted with the first time the realisation that he really could become king, and soon. Also, I was wondering if he was trying to cope with his stress by being helpful to others and pushing aside his emotions? Ie it's not that he was coping with the stress by itself due to being strong but was (somewhat deliberately) using a coping mechanism - keep busy, like we see in Part 1 when he was thinking about how he had killed Sadeas.

 

Chapter 93:

Quote

Adolin thought again of the jolt he’d felt when ramming his dagger through Sadeas’s eye and into his brain. Satisfaction and shame. Strip away Adolin’s nobility, and what was left? A duelist when a world needed generals? A hothead who couldn’t even take an insult?

A murderer?

Quote

He knew so little, and felt so overwhelmed. So insignificant.

Quote

“I’m being childish, aren’t I?” Adolin asked. “So, forces moving in the world now make me look insignificant. That’s no different from a child growing up and realizing his little life isn’t the center of the universe. Right?”

Problem was, his little life had been the center of the universe, growing up. Welcome to being the son of Dalinar storming Blackthorn. He hurled the sphere into the sea, where it skittered against its fellows.

Quote

The world is the same as it’s always been, Adolin thought. These things we’re finding—monsters and Radiants—aren’t new. They were only hidden. The world has always been like this, even if I didn’t know it.

And Adolin . . . he was still himself. He had all the same things to be proud of, didn’t he? Same strengths? Same accomplishments?

Same flaws too.

Adolin's "Welcome to being the son of Dalinar storming Blackthorn" line is definitely sarcastic. We do start to see him become used to the situation but only in the sense that he realises how ignorant he had been.

 

Chapter 101:

Quote

King. Was Adolin a king? Surely his father would decide not to continue with the abdication, now that Elhokar had passed.

Quote

More, he felt his own growing worry that he might actually have to take the throne. He’d grown up knowing it could happen, but he’d also grown up wishing—desperately—that it never would. In his quiet moments, he’d assumed this hesitance was because a king couldn’t apply himself to things like dueling and . . . well . . . enjoying life.

What if it went deeper? What if he’d always known inconsistency lurked within him? He couldn’t keep pretending he was the man his father wanted him to be.

Quote

Such a foreign idea. Sometimes you took up a duty that wasn’t yours, but abandoning one? Just . . . giving it to someone else?

Until his conversation with Azura, Adolin had never even considered abandoning his duty (to be king if necessary) but didn't like the idea either.

 

Chapter 108:

Quote

Adolin breathed in again. With her head pressed to his chest, the air moving in and out of his lungs was audible, and his voice was different. More resonant. “Yeah,” he said. “Yeah, maybe. In any case, I think I know what it’s like to feel like you’re lying to the world. So maybe if you figure out what to do, you could tell me?”

Adolin hoping for some help from Shallan.

 

Chapter 117:

Quote

Adolin gasped at the sharp spike of pain, doubling over, feeling blood on his hands. The Fused seemed almost bored as he yanked the lance out, the tip glistening red with Adolin’s blood, then dropped the weapon. The creature landed and instead unsheathed a wicked-looking sword. He advanced, slapped away Adolin’s weak attempt at a parry, and raised the sword to strike.

Someone leaped onto the Fused from behind.

Adolin was completely outclassed here and was literally saved by his sword. He even told the others to abandon him, due to being wounded.

[aemetha]

58 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Perhaps you could share some information regarding this as I am interested?

I can. What specifically are you interested in?

As far as Jung and Freud goes, I wouldn't say all of their work on personality has been replaced with cognitive psychology, psychodynamic does have modern theories of personality that derives from the work of Jung and Freud. It would be accurate to say that very few psychodynamic practitioners adhere strictly to the theories of Freud and Jung because they simply aren't as accurate and relevant as the modern theories they inspired. Jung in particular is quite popular outside the profession of psychology, because the ideas are relatively easily digested and influential, but they are primarily influencing modern theories rather than dictating professional practice. Stress psychology as I noted has strong influences from the cognitive school of thought which is itself influenced by Descartes philosophy.

It is important to note though, that while there are some disagreements between schools of thought, most of the main schools of thought (psychodynamic, cognitive, behaviourist, humanist, evolutionary) are complimentary rather that contradictory. Psychodynamic for example focuses on motivation (largely unconscious) as a key factor in personality while cognitive focuses on information processing as a key factor in personality. Neither contradicts the other, as personality includes both motivation and information processing.

I don't want to get too off topic, though it can obviously be related back to the situation with Adolin as it already has been, but if we're straying too far feel free to message me and we can discuss it there.

[Guest]

sigh

I never said, that Adolin is incapable of introspection, @kari-no-sugata, but that everything just seems to miraculously go well for him, which makes his introspection more whiny, than it should be.

He boasts and agrees to a 4v1 duel? Well, good thing, that Kaladin is there to save him.

He's afraid of being king? Well, good thing, that he stabbed Sadeas, because that is exactly why he doesn't become king. Consequences for that? Ah, naw. Just a little scolding by daddy.

He's out of his league? Well, good thing, that everywhere someone is there to save him.

Oh, he has problems with finding a wife? Well, good thing, that his cousin Jasnah has that new ward and arranges a betrothal between them. Heh, and of course it works out.

Oh, he wants to be a Radiant, because he feels insignificant? Awesome! He already has an Edgedancer Blade and, coincidentally, already has just the right behavior to revive said Blade. See what I mean? Everything is arranged for him like a nice dinner plate. He just has to take it.

I want to see how Adolin copes with failure. I want to see how Adolin overcomes challenges. Right now, he's just being dragged along with the story and to provide Kaladin and Shallan a shoulder to cry on, should they need it.

---

Sorry, if I went too heavy on the sarcasm, but that is how I handle such ridiculousness.

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC