Theory: Soulcasters and Surgebinders

[Eri she/her]

I've noticed a strange thing:

There are princes, kings, Soulcasters, Surgebinders. We never lack men and women who wish to lead.

The word "Soulcasters" is used here as "people who Soulcast on their own" (as I suppose everyone can Soulcast with a device, and I'm not sure if they were even invented yet). So, as we know, a subset of Surgebinders, right? Wrong. Because it doesn't make sense. If Soulcasters were a subset of Surgebinders, as Jasnah seems to think, Nohadon wouldn't say what he said. He'd say just "princes, kings, Surgebinders.". So... is it possible that Soulcasters were something else?

Yes, it is possible. My hypothesis is that they were a different kind of magic users from Surgebinders (like Feruchemists are from Allomancers) - using a different magic system. They were particulary good, or efficent, with Transformation (I suppose that this magic system also used the 10 surges in some way), so later the transforming fabrials were named after them and therefore now people use the word "Soulcast" as "transform".

Or maybe it was a different magic system, but not based on Surges. Maybe it was based on 10 Essences or something - and all Soulcasters could transform things. It makes even more sense this way.

And I assume their magic was strongly tied to Shadesmar and required entering it.

Observations supporting this hypothesis:

• There is a huge difference between what Kaladin and Szeth do and what Shallan does. She enters Shadesmar, talks with weird spren(?) and cognitive representations of objects. They just do things, quite instinctively.
  
• Illustrations. First color diagram shows Radiant powers, Heralds on border and map from times of Radiants. The second shows some strange glyphs (resembling heads of those creatures), Jasnah on border and map of Shadesmar.
  
• The word "Soulcast" looks (in my opinion) much cooler understood as "cast your soul (as in "cast a shadow" not "cast metal") to shadesmar" than "cast (as in "cast metal" - to shape) object's soul.
  

And I wonder, how Voindbinding fits into that. Shadesmar is kinda void (ok, it's not. But it's all black and dark. )... and Shallan kinda binds it to her will, Jasnah even more. But Kabsal(?) says that Voindbinding was predicting the future. Of course, he may be wrong.

What do you think about it? And if you think I'm wrong - how do you explain what Nohadon said?

[FellKnight he/him]

I've noticed a strange thing:

The word "Soulcasters" is used here as "people who Soulcast on their own" (as I suppose everyone can Soulcast with a device, and I'm not sure if they were even invented yet). So, as we know, a subset of Surgebinders, right? Wrong. Because it doesn't make sense. If Soulcasters were a subset of Surgebinders, as Jasnah seems to think, Nohadon wouldn't say what he said. He'd say just "princes, kings, Surgebinders.". So... is it possible that Soulcasters were something else?

Yes, it is possible. My hypothesis is that they were a different kind of magic users from Surgebinders (like Feruchemists are from Allomancers) - using a different magic system. They were particulary good, or efficent, with Transformation (I suppose that this magic system also used the 10 surges in some way), so later the transforming fabrials were named after them and therefore now people use the word "Soulcast" as "transform".

Or maybe it was a different magic system, but not based on Surges. Maybe it was based on 10 Essences or something - and all Soulcasters could transform things. It makes even more sense this way.

And I assume their magic was strongly tied to Shadesmar and required entering it.

Observations supporting this hypothesis:

• There is a huge difference between what Kaladin and Szeth do and what Shallan does. She enters Shadesmar, talks with weird spren(?) and cognitive representations of objects. They just do things, quite instinctively.
  
• Illustrations. First color diagram shows Radiant powers, Heralds on border and map from times of Radiants. The second shows some strange glyphs (resembling heads of those creatures), Jasnah on border and map of Shadesmar.
  
• The word "Soulcast" looks (in my opinion) much cooler understood as "cast your soul (as in "cast a shadow" not "cast metal") to shadesmar" than "cast (as in "cast metal" - to shape) object's soul.
  

And I wonder, how Voindbinding fits into that. Shadesmar is kinda void (ok, it's not. But it's all black and dark. )... and Shallan kinda binds it to her will, Jasnah even more. But Kabsal(?) says that Voindbinding was predicting the future. Of course, he may be wrong.

What do you think about it? And if you think I'm wrong - how do you explain what Nohadon said?

I think that you are right, they are completely different magic systems. Brandon said that the Stormlight Archive will have (paraphrase) around 30 different magic systems, depending on how you look at it. It has been speculated that this means 10 orders each of Surgebinding, Soulcasting, and Voidbinding.

Fell

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

If Soulcasting is the third archetype, it is highly likely that it is tied to Cultivation, Such that each Shard on Roshar has a system of magic, divided into schools based on the Surges. However, if this is the case, then our entire definition of Surgebinding (Stormlight energy channeled by a union with a spren) is meaningless, as Soulcasting behaves the same way.

[discipleofhoid he/him]

From the brandonthology:

Will The Way of Kings series be based on one of the worlds and magic systems you have already created or are you inventing a totally new one for this series?

It will be new. There are going to be a lot of different types of magic in the world (I see there's a question below asking about that, so I'll answer more there.) But there will be two main magic systems for the first book. The first will deal with the manipulation of fundamental forces. (Gravity, Strong/weak atomic forces, Electromagnetic force, that sort of thing.) The second will be a transformation based magic system, whereby people can transform objects into one of the world's ten elements.

Emphasis added.

I would say this sounds like surgebinding and soulcasting are two distinct magic systems.

It also kind of defines surgebinding - The binding or manipulation of fundamental forces( called surges in world).

Of course right after saying that I found this:

A: Remember that to get an order of the Knights Radiant you take two of the small glyphs and one of the large glyphs. The large glyph represents a concept or an ideal mixed with an 'essence' what they call the elements of this world, with two magics attached to it. You have seen the Windrunners, which is the first, top-right glyph, mixed with the two Surges the forces in this world attached to it. So you've seen pressure and gravitation as mixed together to form a Windrunner. You have seen one of the other Surges, which is Soulcasting 'Transformation' though which other Surges that mixes with to form orders of the Knights Radiant I am not specifically going to say at this time. What else have you seen? Those are the only ones that are overt. But you have seen the effects of others.

So now I am not sure.

Edited July 20, 2011 by discipleofhoid

[Silus - Shard of Flame he/him]

Remember, there's also the people who can Soulcast with Fabrials. They would be considered distinct from the Surgebinders. And look at Shallan's second ability, (and if you don't think this is magical then you're kidding yourself) her Memories that let her see the symbolheads. In the mugging scene, Jasnah is described as shooting bolts of stormlight lightning at the muggers, which really does not sound like Soulcasting to me. If these turn out to be separate powers, then they definitely fit with the pattern of two Surges makes an Order, with Shallan and Jasnah belonging to different, adjacent orders, the two that use Soulcasting.