[OB] Odium

[Lupis]

OK, I have to say I felt really underwhelmed by Odium. He just didn't ever really seem the major threat I was expecting him to be. Then Dalinar saw him off relatively easily, it just didn't sit right with me. Then it occurred to me, what if what we saw wasn't actually Odium, but one of the unmade pretending to be Odium. Dalinar's power level would be similiar to an unmade, so it fleeing from him would make more sense than for Odium itself to do it. I actually think it might have been Dai-Gonarthis:

Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Daigonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it! Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed female street juggler. Note similarity to sample 1172-89.

Which sounds pretty similar to what the "Odium" Dalinar encountered appeared to want him to do. It might also explain why it said "we killed you", rather than I.

Admittedly I haven't delved too far into how possible this actually is, and I'm probably reading too much into my dislike of how Odium was portrayed and acted in the book, but I'd be interested in others thoughts on it.

 

[PhineasGage]

Hmm, its an interesting idea and one I'll probably have to go away and think about for a bit. It certainly fits with what you've mentioned in text.

I thought that Odium is likely still somewhat bound/trapped by whatever it is that Honor did to him. Remember the 2nd letter in WoR? IIRC is says that Rayse is trapped in the system. This presumably means there is a serious block on his powers. I think part of him getting Oathgates etc is actually to free himself then reign down fire and fury upon all of Roshar. In the meantime, as a shard, he has some severe limitations as to what he can or can't do. He can obviously talk to a person's mind, because we see him talk to Dalinar and Taravangian but he presumably has no physical presence so cannot interact with many things directly. He has to work through agents.

[KidWayne]

@Lupis So, you were underwhelmed by the threat of Odium because he ran away after confronting Dalinar?

Well, remember that he is bound to his agreements and to Roshar. Dalinar was Odium's intended champion and Amaram would have probably been his second choice if forced to name one on short notice (and Amaram couldn't even best Kaladin). As he had already agreed to a contest of champions - and Dalinar evaded being named as Odium's champion - Odium could have lost if he stuck around long enough for Dalinar to challenge him to name a champion. Taravangian alludes to this when he makes his deal with Odium.

So, it isn't a lack of power that made Odium flee, it was his obligation to keep his word and the resulting consequences. Odium basically called a tactical retreat so that he had time to prepare a new champion.

[Sigsyl]

Hmm. I like this idea but there are a couple of things that make me think it’s probably not true. The first is that presumably the Stormfather would be able to tell the difference between Odium and an Unmade. The second is Dalinar experiencing the divine, burning power. That would seem to be beyond the capabilities of an Unmade. 

I wouldn’t say that I was disappointed with how Odium was portrayed but it did bother me a little that he was introduced so early in the series, meaning that Brandon has already played that card and obviously the mystery and menace that Odium poses has decreased going into the next book. Especially now that he seemingly has to avoid Dalinar.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Sigsyl

[Lupis]

1 minute ago, KidWayne said:

@Lupis So, you were underwhelmed by the threat of Odium because he ran away after confronting Dalinar?

 

No, I felt it right through the book, that just cemented it for me.

[KidWayne]

5 minutes ago, Sigsyl said:

the mystery and menace that Odium poses has decreased going into the next book. Especially now that he seemingly has to avoid Dalinar.

I wonder if his agreement with Dalinar is null and void if Dalinar is killed...

That would certainly be an interesting cliffhanger for book 5.

[Stormlightning]

Oddly this never occurred to me even though I find myself wondering about Dai-gonarthis all the time (mostly cause I think his name is awesome). I dig the theory, even if I think it's probably not true. I don't think a different Unmade would have relied as heavily on the Thrill's component to Dalinar's fall (I feel like the 9 Unmade are probably really independent of each other? No reason for that other than gut feeling) or would have responded like Odium did when Dalinar said "Why don't you just leave?" (btw that was probably one of my favorite moments in the whole book for sheer green...vine...ness).

[Sigsyl]

15 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

I wonder if his agreement with Dalinar is null and void if Dalinar is killed...

That would certainly be an interesting cliffhanger for book 5.

I would guess that it would be. I can’t think of any logical way for it to be passed on to someone else. Maybe Moash’s next target?

[Matt Snow]

I really like this idea, and I feel like it's something of a meta-call back to "The Dark One" in the first couple of WoT books, but I don't think an Unmade would be able to show Dalinar the spiritual realm like the Odium we see in the books does. Plus, unless one of the Unmade is MUCH stronger than all the others I don't think the Stormfather would be so scared of the Odium we see, unless he was also fooled and thinks it's the real one.

Tl/dr: Like the idea, don't think it's possible/probable.

[Lupis]

19 hours ago, Sigsyl said:

Hmm. I like this idea but there are a couple of things that make me think it’s probably not true. The first is that presumably the Stormfather would be able to tell the difference between Odium and an Unmade. The second is Dalinar experiencing the divine, burning power. That would seem to be beyond the capabilities of an Unmade.

I did wonder about that myself, but I was thinking it might be tapping directly from Odium. Possibly Odium wants everyone thinking the Unmade IS him, and it isn't just doing it on its own, but as a distraction while he is doing something else. He is allowing it to access some of his power, to make it look legit.

[TheEdgedancer]

Well yes, Odium in his full power was not there. Odium is still trapped on Braize. Odium himself could go into Dalinar's visions probably, but the portion that he met on the Battle of Thaylen Field was not Odium in his full power. Instead it was almost certainly a portion of him, and one that was already tired and had a lot of its power expended in bonding with the entire Sadeas Army. That was not all of Odium so Dalinar hasn't really gone up against the entirety of Odium yet except in the visions. If Odium himself was there, he could probably have just vaporized the entire battlefield or something like that.

[DocHoliday]

Odium clearly has locks on his power. I mean he can't even get through a closed window

[Aleph-Naught]

I dunno. He seemed threatening enough to me.

Folks have already mentioned the potential locks he has on his power since the Oathpact is still, barely, in place. What occurs to me is that, should he end up getting free (and I see no reason why, in a book series with 7 volumes remaining, that wouldn't be an inevitability), there's nothing really stopping him from reforming a shard (since he has some decent experience in shattering them, seems like he'd be able to reverse engineer the process fairly easily), or kill another shard to increase his power. Yes, Rayse doesn't want to dilute the intent of the shard he has right now but I don't see him as Pythagoras refusing to cross a field of beans - he'll do what he has to, particularly because I think there are some shards out there that would probably have a minimal diluting effect; to be honest I am puzzled he didn't take up Ambition instead of splintering it.