theory [OB] I think, Shallan is being manipulated by Odium/Ashertmarn...

[Guest]

Or it could be in fact a combination and it was Odium who talked to her, but her subconscious made Wit's voice out of it... But still... I just think, that Odium didn't get enough information to determine Wit as Hoid, but wanted to keep Shallan in her state to weaken the enemy. It is just this "mind" vs. "emotion" thing in the wording that ticks me off. And of course that both suggest very different solutions to Shallan's problem.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

8 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

There is another example of telepathy and it isn't from a Shard. 

Mistborn Spoilers

So it is certainly possible that Hoid could have figured out how to do it and if he can I doubt it would be breaking cosmere rules, just following a method we are not yet aware of.

It could also just be Shallan using his voice in her subconscious as other have said. I still dont see the two pieces of advise as different, just seperate explanations of the same thing.

I concede it is possible it was the unmade/odium as there is no direct evidence against it, but the other options seem much more likely to me.

Its been a while since i read SoS but doesn't what you say essentially mean she is using the spike thing? I only read the book once so my knowledge if it is desperately flawed.

Spoiler

aren't the Kandra primarily of Ruin? If Wax is spiked, she technically is using the Intent of the shard to communicate? 

Either way, there needs to be proximity. Has Wit spiked Shallan? Wouldnt we have seen that? My point was primarily about there having to be a specific link between communicating entities. Why would we assume that Shallan and Wit have such a link?

[ScavellTane]

Shallan Connects to people through her drawings. Perhaps its an extension of that.

[kari-no-sugata]

Nightblood can definitely communicate telepathically without a physical connection. Kelsier could communicate from beyond. Shallan could feel Drehy's thoughts from Shadesmar, so more would probably be possible.

Odium's forces probably thought Shallan was an Elsecaller due to Taravangian.

[PhineasGage]

17 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Shallan Connects to people through her drawings. Perhaps its an extension of that.

I think in order to run with that we'd need evidence that it had happened before. Has she drawn Wit? Thats how she creates connection anyway as far as I understand. If she has then maybe but I dont remember it - does anyone know of proof of it?

 

9 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Nightblood can definitely communicate telepathically without a physical connection. Kelsier could communicate from beyond. Shallan could feel Drehy's thoughts from Shadesmar, so more would probably be possible.

Odium's forces probably thought Shallan was an Elsecaller due to Taravangian.

1) Nightblood? Can he - I thought he only spoke to people he was held by or who he had tried to eat (thereby forming a cognitive connection) I got the impression that Lift only heard him after that happened? I have read Edgdancer but only once so prepared to be wrong on that. Still not sure it would be a good analogy for Wit to be able to do it. If he could magically connect with people why did he have to travel so far to find Jasnah at end of WoR - he could just have had a chat with her telepathically. Even if Nightblood can do this with anyone, he still needs to be bloody close to do it or Vivenna would have found him already.

2) Kelsier is dead when he does that and therefore has intrinsic links to the spiritual plane. Not only that, but iirc doesn't he need to be physically near someone to do it? 

3) Er she does? I'm not questioning you so much as don;t remember it and would like to see the text. Feeling a bit Gandalf ("I have no memory of this place")

4) This is also certainly possible, though unless Odium is a complete idiot, I'd expect him to check it out for himself. I mean, seriously, the diagram has mistakes all through it.

 

Oh had a thought about Lift and Nightblood, is it possible that because she exists partly in the cognitive realm that she can hear Nightblood's projected thoughts? Just a brief idea. Now that might be something that Wit can do. Not sure he'd be able to project his thoughts like that though to Shallan.

Edited November 24, 2017 by PhineasGage
added thought

[Egomere]

Does Shallan know Wit as Hoid or just Wit?

I still think it was a subconcious conversation between Shallan and herself as 'Wit' but I'm open to the idea that it was Odium using a voice she new subconsiously to project.

And as someone mentioned about Unmade being reminiscent of hemalurgical constructs - it could be - definately very skeptical - but I can understand the comparison;

Like Ruin could only communicate with a spiked person - and then only influence depending on how severally spiked - Odium could be aware of his unmade at all times and communicate but only to a certain degree (depending on the 'spikeage') - he had alot more control over Neraghoul as the thrill (and steel inquisitor control for ruin) but maybe Sja-anat is more like Ruin and Vin (heavy influence whilst wearing the earing) but little at others time (when Odium's not focusing on her - and even then she could still hide things from him...

Can understand the idea just not sure how much I want to buy into it with the tiny amount of info we know about the unmade and Odius Odium.

[Awesomness]

@SNLC I believe you are onto something, but she is not being manipulated yet.

Shallan is showing (bigger) cracks, and is going backwards with her bond with Pattern. She's been close to 2 unmade. We know Re-Shepnir "knows her". And this "Wit" voice (a voice she trusts) telling her to embrace emotions... Right now we are only seeing the first hints, buy Odium is definitely finding his way into her mind.

I have a feeling Brandon is playing with us:

Quote

There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar's mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.

The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key.

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

I believe you are onto something, but she is not being manipulated yet.

Hm.. What I meant with manipulation was like, that Odium planted this thought in her mind... That she maybe could escape all the hurt by subdueing her personas, because it is the acceptance that hurts Shallan.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[kari-no-sugata]

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

1) Nightblood? Can he - I thought he only spoke to people he was held by or who he had tried to eat (thereby forming a cognitive connection) I got the impression that Lift only heard him after that happened? I have read Edgdancer but only once so prepared to be wrong on that. Still not sure it would be a good analogy for Wit to be able to do it. If he could magically connect with people why did he have to travel so far to find Jasnah at end of WoR - he could just have had a chat with her telepathically. Even if Nightblood can do this with anyone, he still needs to be bloody close to do it or Vivenna would have found him already.

I think all you need to be able to talk to Nightblood is to have his approval, though that might include passing the "Nightblood test" which can include touching him or the scabbard IIRC. Anyway, it doesn't take much. Given how invested Wit is (Pattern says he's like a spren) and how Cosmere aware he is I don't think it would be hard for Wit to remotely talk to Shallan (or prepare something that would allow him to in future). Wit could manipulate Shallan's own Lightweaving, for example.

Being able to remotely talk to someone seems to require some level of Connection but doesn't appear to be too hard if you know how, I would say. It certainly does not require shards or super Invested entities - Radiant spren can manage it easily. Unless Odium has directly touched Shallan or has somehow gotten some of his Investiture into her, it would probably be nearly impossible for him to talk to her. Given that Odium doesn't know that Shallan is a Lightweaver I think it's safe to say that he hasn't touched Shallan directly so far. Given that Shallan has directly touched Wit more than once (and he's probably used Allomancy at least once on her and probably other things), I don't think it's unreasonable for Wit to be able to talk to Shallan remotely. How easy it is for him and whether it has any conditions I don't know - for example, maybe Shallan was somewhat pulled into the Congnitive or Spiritual Realm at this point, making it possible for Wit to talk to her (the voice stopped when the "fight" ended). This is speculation of course.

I'm not saying that the voice was definitely Wit's. But I think it would have been possible. I doubt it was Odium's. It could have been one of Odium's forces but there doesn't appear to be any good candidates.

 

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

3) Er she does? I'm not questioning you so much as don;t remember it and would like to see the text. Feeling a bit Gandalf ("I have no memory of this place")

Chapter 89, Damnation:

Quote

Living souls bobbed around, a swarm of them entering the Oathgate control chamber. One brushed Shallan. Drehy the bridgeman. For a brief moment she felt what it was like to be him. Worried for Kaladin. Panicked that nobody was in change, that he would have to take command. He wasn't a commander. You couldn't be a rebel if you were in change. He liked being told what to do - that way he could find a method to do it with style.

I believe that's the only example. Obviously has spying implications...

 

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

4) This is also certainly possible, though unless Odium is a complete idiot, I'd expect him to check it out for himself. I mean, seriously, the diagram has mistakes all through it.

If Odium checked/verified everything then there wouldn't be much point asking for information in the first place (for example, he asks Taravangian how much the Alethi know about Urithiru at the end). It's not like Shards can easily do anything.

 

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Oh had a thought about Lift and Nightblood, is it possible that because she exists partly in the cognitive realm that she can hear Nightblood's projected thoughts? Just a brief idea. Now that might be something that Wit can do. Not sure he'd be able to project his thoughts like that though to Shallan.

Vivi could hear Nightblood just fine. Okay, she's Invested to various degrees during Warbreaker but even when she was Drab I think she could hear.

[PhineasGage]

9 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think all you need to be able to talk to Nightblood is to have his approval, though that might include passing the "Nightblood test" which can include touching him or the scabbard IIRC. Anyway, it doesn't take much. Given how invested Wit is (Pattern says he's like a spren) and how Cosmere aware he is I don't think it would be hard for Wit to remotely talk to Shallan (or prepare something that would allow him to in future). Wit could manipulate Shallan's own Lightweaving, for example.

I'm not necessarily saying he can't do it. But we haven't seen him do it, and we have seen him travel a long way to talk to someone (Jasnah). If he can just talk to people remotely, why doesn't he do so? BS usually hides things in plain site rather than make them so obvious - I would have expected to see a manifestation of this skill, of Hoid's before if he had it.  I also want to point out that he says specifically that he isn't in Kholinar to help Shallan - I know he does help her, when they meet in person but how does he know she needs help right then? Part of his thing is going where he is needed but that he doesn't always know how it works - he is still in Kholinar at the end of the book looking for the Cryptic so he wasn't there for Shallan or the others. Even with a connection, he'd have to have been really lucky to catch her at the right moment during her altercation with Ashertman because it happens really quickly.

On top of that, I don;t think he manipulates her lightweaving via connection. Illumination is the surge closest to the Yolen original of lightweaving according to the Ars Arcanum. Wit can lightweave because he is from Yolen. He intermingles his own magic with hers to alter it, not alter it via a direct connection with hers. That's why when they do the "Girl who stood up" chapter together he asks her for help - he has limited ability on Roshar because "the shards here are very strict". 

19 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Unless Odium has directly touched Shallan or has somehow gotten some of his Investiture into her, it would probably be nearly impossible for him to talk to her.

He has. Twice. She directly interfaces with two of his Unmade. On top of that she grew up in a household basically controlled by Odium via her father. 

25 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm not saying that the voice was definitely Wit's. But I think it would have been possible. I doubt it was Odium's. It could have been one of Odium's forces but there doesn't appear to be any good candidates.

Interestingly, we end up at the same conclusion coming from different directions. I think it could be Wit, but struggle to see how he could manage it. On the other hand I am not certain that it has to be Odium but can see how he could manage it. We know Shards can do this kind of remote talking but I have not seen one human do it to another. Wit is powerful, but he is still human. 

26 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I believe that's the only example. Obviously has spying implications...

That example is useful thankyou but it doesn't actually fit with the idea of true telepathy. There is no indication that Drehy is communicating with Shallan or he would have asked her about where they were and if Kaladin was still alive. All spheres in the cognitive realm give a shape/idea of what they are. People are just clearer than eg a stick.

That said, I very much agree that it would have very interesting spying implications - I would be surprised if this doesn't become a thing in following books. It is concerning that it could be so easy to read surface thoughts.

29 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

If Odium checked/verified everything then there wouldn't be much point asking for information in the first place (for example, he asks Taravangian how much the Alethi know about Urithiru at the end). It's not like Shards can easily do anything.

They can do more things than a normal person can though. Also, I would be very surprised if Odium doesn't check Taravangian's info - if only to check to see how honest Mr T is being with him, unless he can "detect truth" or something (seems unlikely given his Intent). The Shards are limited by the Intent of the shard they possess. Rayse seems more able than most (he has killed and splintered several Shards already) because it seems his personality and Intent do not conflict. On top of that hatred is a very .... loose concept. Anything can be hated. Indeed that is more or less the point Wit makes in the epilogue. Odium's Intent may not grant fantastic foresight or increased investiture in people of his realms, but he is freer for it. Warbreaker and Mistborn spoliers below:

Spoiler

Endowment, for example, won't really be able to take stuff away because that opposes the Intent. Preservation couldn't destroy stuff, and Ruin couldn't create.

Honour couldn't break oaths. The only thing Odium cannot do is love. Everything else seems to come from Rayse being a bad bad boy. 

 

36 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Vivi could hear Nightblood just fine. Okay, she's Invested to various degrees during Warbreaker but even when she was Drab I think she could hear.

Was she close by though? What distance are we talking? Did she have to be holding him? When could she start hearing him? Had she touched him before the link between them was made? I'd like to know so we can really get all the information regarding mind to mind communication in the cosmere. Brandon doesn't make and break rules at random.

 

 

I think the point here is that physical distance seems to only be negated by connections via the cognitive or spiritual realms. It doesn't just happen. What evidence do we have for such a connection between Wit and Shallan? We need less evidence of a connection between Odium and Shallan because she was touching the Unmade at the time she heard the voice. 

 

[Ailvara]

I don't see the point of trying hard to prove whether Wit could reach her. Never at any moment did it feel to me like it's actually him talking - the words clearly look like her just remembering them. Also, I don't think he was just sitting around there and waiting to whisper to her what already had been said, while the city all burns. So, I would accept that it's just her musing much sooner than that's Hoids doing. 

That being said, the last bit looks odd. It wouldn't be enough to make a good theory, I agree, but then... this so looks like

Spoiler

Vin and her brother's voice in her head. If we make a link unmade = earring, this makes so much sense. Ruin's influence was similarly subtle, I'd never guess it on my own and even given all the clues it could only be a wild guess.

So little evidence now doesn't discard the theory either, on the contrary, now we have more than then - a strong precedent to work with. 

EDIT I'd also argue, that it wasn't Hoid's voice. If she was given the same words and voice - plus it wasn't too long and the conversation was quite important and memorable - she shouldn't have had trouble recognizing it. And let's remember we're talking about Shallan, who has a supernatural memory and can imitate people's voices on her own, so she's a pro here. So it's quite likely it wasn't exactly Hoid's voice. 

EDIT2 I must admit, I kind of hope this is true, because it might actually be a tool to help Shallan's recovery. If she finds the way to stop the influence, she might just get better enough to figure the rest out in her own. If her condition is entirely psychological, well, no shortcuts here, and it's a loong way to go. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Ailvara

[Blacksmithki]

Things I can't remember off the top of my head that I think are very relevant:

Did the voice help her win the fight? If yes: almost for sure not odium tbh, why manipulate and risk failing when you can crush.

How soon did the voice come? We don't know how long it would take to imitate a voice, but it wouldn't be instant.

Did the voice sound exactly like Hoid? It probably wouldn't be easy or fast to mimic a voice so perfectly to trick Shallen with a near perfect memory. If yes this is another point against Odium being the voice.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[Guest]

Just now, Blacksmithki said:

Did the voice help her win the fight? If yes: almost for sure not odium tbh, why manipulate and risk failing when you can crush.

Ashertmarn fled on purpose. The whole ordeal was a trap.

Just now, Blacksmithki said:

How soon did the voice come? We don't know how long it would take to imitate a voice, but it wouldn't be instant.

Quickly, but not instant. Shallan heard other voices before Wit's.

[PhineasGage]

4 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

why manipulate and risk failing when you can crush.

On top of what @SLNC said, Odium's end goal is not to kill Shallan. She's a minor player from his perspective. His end goal is to end his imprisonment in the Rosharan system and kill Cultivation before moving on to his next shardic victim.

If Odium was just all about killing he wouldn't bother working with the Fused or Taravangian. He is much more dangerous than that.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Did the voice sound exactly like Hoid? It probably wouldn't be easy or fast to mimic a voice so perfectly to trick Shallen with a near perfect memory. If yes this is another point against Odium being the voice.

Shallan recognized it as such. More we can't know. Rayse isn't just a normal human being though.

[Blacksmithki]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Ashertmarn fled on purpose. The whole ordeal was a trap.

Quickly, but not instant. Shallan heard other voices before Wit's.

Huh, this is very interesting.

That unmade was mindless right? That implies Odium was actively there and communicating with it, so given the time delay to allow Odium to get the voice right and prepare what to say.

On the other hand, why would Odium bother with this if he planned for them to be killed by (sja? One of the unmade), it seems odd that he wouldn't trust her to do that but let her anyways.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

On the other hand, why would Odium bother with this if he planned for them to be killed by (sja? One of the unmade), it seems odd that he wouldn't trust her to do that but let her anyways.

I already kind of have the feeling, that Odium knows, that Sja-anat wants to help the enemy or - actually - is doing that on his bidding to get their trust. I really don't trust her, but I'll keep an open mind about her.

Or maybe he is just trying to plan for every contingency.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

2 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Huh, this is very interesting.

That unmade was mindless right? That implies Odium was actively there and communicating with it, so given the time delay to allow Odium to get the voice right and prepare what to say.

On the other hand, why would Odium bother with this if he planned for them to be killed by (sja? One of the unmade), it seems odd that he wouldn't trust her to do that but let her anyways.

First, we don't know that Sja-Anat is definitely trying to betray Odium - as SLNC mentions above. It might also be a trap. Secondly, the manipulation of the oathgate had never been attempted before so the outcomes were unpredictable. Thirdly, Odium seems to think Shallan is an Elsecaller so even if he doesn't  know about Sja-Anat, he may think that she could transport herself physically into Shadesmar. It is unclear when Odium starts believeing she is an Elsecaller.

[IndigoAjah]

14 hours ago, SLNC said:

A part of reused plot... We don't know where it takes us.

Only my opinion but I'd find it cheap 

[insert_anagram_here]

Sorry if I'm re-opening a closed thread, but I didn't see this earlier and I've been trying to figure out if Wit's advice to Shallan was interpreted correctly.

@SLNC nice catch!

When I read this part in the book I was confused.

First I assumed she was remembering his advice. But, usually when people remember words being said to them, don't they remember the exact phrase? Here the words were elaborated further. So when the meaning was explained as 'you need to rule them' where I was expecting 'you need to accept them', I realized this surely wasn't from memory. This was a new thought.

Then I noticed that she first asks 'Wit?' as in, she is surprised to hear him so this could possibly mean that this new thought is not exactly hers or if it's hers, she's not in complete control of it, as in, it could've been corrupted from an outside source.

I think a lot of the arguments on this thread revolve around Odium and Wit, but I do not think either of them were a part of this scene.

She was laid bare to Ashertmarn, not Odium. Yes, the Unmade are a part of Odium but that doesn't necessarily mean he fully controls them. Don't forget that Sja-anat tried to contact Shallan without being discovered by Odium. So it's possible he wasn't part of this conversation either.  

And those who fall under Ashertmarn's influence are driven to total mindless indulgence, abandoning their lives and responsibilities in favor of the revel. So Shallan could be manipulated into the revel of ruling her personalities instead of accepting them as a responsibility, even without Odiums interference.

Oh and I never even considered that Wit could talk to her telepathically. That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Because if he did have this power, why didn't he do it on other crucial moments? Why did he have to meet her in person in the first place? He is hiding after all, isn't he?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, insert_anagram_here said:

And those who fall under Ashertmarn's influence are driven to total mindless indulgence, abandoning their lives and responsibilities in favor of the revel. So Shallan could be manipulated into the revel of ruling her personalities instead of accepting them as a responsibility, even without Odiums interference.

I was thinking it was Odium that talked through Ashertmarn, because Ashertmarn is described as mindless, but if his manipulations to push humans into the revel work like this... Why not? Could actually be the case that it was Ashertmarn only... Still he was acting on Odium's behalf.

[insert_anagram_here]

58 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Still he was acting on Odium's behalf.

Yes, just like Nergaoul/Thrill did with Dalinar.

[Calderis]

Brandon does not go for exact quotes in  memory. He goes the route of the truly unreliable narrator, and it frustrates Peter. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/95/#e846

Quote

TheQuentisentialYou

Why does Marasi's memory of the voice of "Death" or Marsh, change? From Alloy of Law to Bands of Mourning chapter 15?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

This is a thing that drives Peter crazy. My research tells me that people change memories based on expectations and environment.

On occasion, you'll see me having characters miss-quote themselves, or remember events clearly wrong. I do this for realism.

(Though on occasion, it's just a mistake or lapse on my part. Those we fix. The rest drive my editors crazy.)

It's perfectly possible that that "wit" voice was her subconcious translation of what Wit told her. 

[insert_anagram_here]

17 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Why does Marasi's memory of the voice of "Death" or Marsh, change? From Alloy of Law to Bands of Mourning chapter 15?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

This is a thing that drives Peter crazy. My research tells me that people change memories based on expectations and environment.

On occasion, you'll see me having characters miss-quote themselves, or remember events clearly wrong. I do this for realism.

(Though on occasion, it's just a mistake or lapse on my part. Those we fix. The rest drive my editors crazy.)

Oh I remember that! And yes, it pissed me off when I realized it and I felt toyed and disappointed! No wonder his editors go crazy.

At least, I can keep faith from this answer that he is aware that this is not the perfectly sensible thing to do. (I'm Mrs. Brightside)

Edited November 28, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
typo