Diomedes Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) This makes me wonder, why are there phenotypical differences on Roshar? Why are Iriali blond, Alethi tall, Shin pale etc.? This essentially. Edit: (Now I am embaressed, because I sent you guys the wrong link; I meant this of course:) If all Humans migrated from Ashy once, why are people living in these bubbles of same appereances? A. They migrated in groups from Shinovar to the rest of Roshar. Problem: wouldn´t they have intermarried on Shinovar, all living in this tiny space? B. It is as OP says: Everyone on Roshar except the Shin are actually from Roshar and their respective region. Only the Shin came from Ashyn, therefore they have their own specific appereance. Edited August 13, 2018 by Diomedes
Stormfather-in-Law Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, animalia said: My thought was that the Shin abhor violence now BECAUSE they had been violent in the past. Sort of a culture wide “My god what have we done!” Well, as long as this is revived, my thought was that the Shin to this day are harboring a bunch of super weaponized martial arts masters armed with honorblades and maybe a boatload of shardblades to boot. I think there was some earlier discussion about this that put the thought into my head, but that's buried deep where this thread belonged. But think on this: 1. No outsiders are allowed into Shinovar. Even trusted traders only get to see the very fringes. Nobody (including the readers!) knows what's in there, but everybody believes they are as peaceful as can be. Perfect for hiding an army behind the guise of a reclusive, pacifist culture. 2. Szeth was taught Kammar - a hand-to-hand martial art. This hints at a warrior subculture passed down through generations. 3. There are hundreds (thousands?) of missing shardblades. We know the Shin have the majority of honorblades and train some segment of their population with them. 4. That past invasion out of Shinovar was quite successful, but apparently did get beaten back in the end. 5. Szeth himself was, before he became truthless, in some sort of position of honor. He knew things nobody else on Roshar knows. He was somehow part of the ruling structure, despite having clearly picked up a weapon. So there you have it. The Shin don't know everything (or they wouldn't have made Szeth truthless), but they have a store of knowledge and weapons that would surprise anyone on Roshar. We don't know enough beyond hints to say for sure, but all those hints point towards secrets and power. I'd be surprised if the Shin's supposed peacefulness isn't a front that hides a formidable foe. Edited August 13, 2018 by Stormfather-in-Law 1
RShara she/her Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 I'm fairly certain there were multiple waves of migrations to Roshar, and that some of the current-day Rosharans have some specific genes that cause the characteristic looks to be proportional to phenotype. 1
Calderis he/him Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 There were multiple migrations. At the very least the Iriali were separate. Quote Argent [PENDING REVIEW] How many waves of human populations have migrated to Roshar? So I'm thinking the Ashynites coming from Ashyn, right? Was that just the only humans that ever came as a population? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] It depends on if you count the Iriali? Argent [PENDING REVIEW] That's specifically the one I'm thinking of. Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] They came in a separate migration. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Not from Ashyn? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Not from Ashyn. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] From whatever the Third Land was. source 45 minutes ago, Diomedes said: Why are Iriali blond Slight nitpick, but they aren't. Rirans are blond. The Iriali have actual metallic gold hair and slight gold sheen to the skin if the light hits it right.
Diomedes Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) The different migrations to Roshar can explain some but not all phenotypical differences. There must have been dozens of them if it would account for all differences in appereance. So we can safely say that most modern day Humans on Roshar are descended from the original "Voidbringers" referenced in the dawnchant. I found a solution for my "problem". My headcanon is now that Odium kept some kind of racial segregation between peoples in Shinovar since Humans were under the control of Odium during the first desolation. We know Odium is very keen on punishing entire groups for wrongdoings. (Khen and his group, the way he is espacially mean to Venli just because her ancient ancestors betrayed his cause) Therefore, it is not unfair to assume that Odium had his favorites (for instance the proto-Alethi) among early humans and those who did not obey him as quick in the past (for instance the proto-Shin). Therefore, he punished them by using them as cannonfodder. He would be very keen on keeping those groups segregated. Edit: the Eila Stele completly disproves OP`s theory, as a different post said. It makes clear that the otherworlders were distinctivly human, which was a new kind of sentient being for the authors: They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging. We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor. Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god. These Voidbringers know no songs. They cannot hear Roshar, and where they go, they bring silence. They look soft, with no shell, but they are hard. They have but one heart, and it cannot ever live. Edited August 13, 2018 by Diomedes
Calderis he/him Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) Humans were not "controlled by Odium." The view that he was "their God" is in itself flawed. Quote Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW] What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did Humans come with Odium? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there. Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW] Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled. source As far as the need for multiple migrations... Why? I doubt that Ashyn was a single homogenous race. It's possible that the Shin were already an insular group and just remained so when they came across. You also have the potential implications of the Shard of Cultivation on Roshar messing with evolution. There are many possible explanations for what has happened on Roshar, and the only thing we can be sure of is we don't have the answers. I personally though, think the Shin have been a xenophobic and insular group since before their migration. Edited August 14, 2018 by Calderis
animalia Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Calderis said: Humans were not "controlled by Odium." The view that he was "their God" is in itself flawed. As far as the need for multiple migrations... Why? I doubt it will hat Ashyn was a single homogenous race. It's possible that the Shin were already an insular group and just remained so when they came across. You also have the potential implications of the Shard of Cultivation on Roshar messing with evolution. There are many possible explanations for what has happened on Roshar, and the only thing we can be sure of is we don't have the answers. I personally though, think the Shin have been a xenophobic and insular group since before their migration. Speaking of Cultivation she spoke of Dalinar being a GAMBLE. While not NESSECARILY relevant here I think I should point out that not ALL of Cultivations gambles are going to pay off. That’s the nature of gambles. Some will even backfire. While I am speculating and throwing out Wild mass guessing Maybe Szeth will have parallels to Socrates who was ostracized for “corrupting” the youth of Athens. Keep in mind mind Ancient Greece was ALSO a xenophobic group and their type of democracy without restrictions often led to Mob Rule and what the founding fathers of America would call the “Tyranny of the Majority”
Diomedes Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Calderis said: Humans were not "controlled by Odium Ok, they were manipulated by Odium. "They lent him an ear", This means they were standing under his influence, which is why the Singers regarded Odium as the god of Humans. By the time of SA most Humans would consider Odium as the god of the Parshmen. He is not really controlling most Parshmen (aside from the Fused). but manipulating them. 3 hours ago, Calderis said: I doubt it will hat Ashyn was a single homogenous race. No they probably were not. Humans of different appereances coming from Ashyn stayed in Shinovar for some generations. They should have intermarried living together in this small space, thereby diminishing the differences of the races to some degree. It was my headcanon that the human races did not intermarry because they segregated themselves from each other. It isn`t a theory because we do not know anything about that time. So I don`t have any evidence for this thought, but I also don`t need to because it is just my headcanon/ speculation. We are getting off topic by the way. I just wanted to clarify my statements above. Edited August 13, 2018 by Diomedes
RShara she/her Posted August 14, 2018 Posted August 14, 2018 19 hours ago, Calderis said: Humans were not "controlled by Odium." The view that he was "their God" is in itself flawed. As far as the need for multiple migrations... Why? I doubt that Ashyn was a single homogenous race. It's possible that the Shin were already an insular group and just remained so when they came across. You also have the potential implications of the Shard of Cultivation on Roshar messing with evolution. There are many possible explanations for what has happened on Roshar, and the only thing we can be sure of is we don't have the answers. I personally though, think the Shin have been a xenophobic and insular group since before their migration. The shin are definitely xenophobic. Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] *Inaudible question* Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] *Repeating* Why do the Shin look different to the Rosharan significant <face>? Because the Shin have spent a long time being very xenophobic. They haven't intermixed very much. When the original event happened, that I'm not going to say because of spoilers, different people settled in different places, and the Shin in particular just have been very xenophobic. source
Magpro Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 I believe the Shin were the original Voidringer, the first Humans to come to Roshar based on Eila Stele, as Dawnsinger had not seen such creatures before who could not hear the songs or had soft skin. As they were refugees, the shin land was created for them as it represented their original world Ashyn. Odium on the other hand was not their god but they lent him an ear and they were betrayed. In this betrayal the humans were modified to shin features(Maybe Not) and this betrayal caused the destruction of Ashyn. When they came to Roshar, they swore off working for Odium and asked help from Honor and Cultivation. Dawnsingers were asked by Honor to accept the shin and give them land, which cultivation modified. Over time factions within Shin broke apart and explored outside shin land and betrayed/warred with Dawnsingers for more land etc. Core of the population stayed within Shin Lands. The one who migrated Intermingled with other spieced and caused further variantions in Humans. Also other factions of Humans worldhopped crating more packets and variants of humans. Humans bringing the original afinity to Ashyn Magic to Roshar, saw they can use surges on roshar via stormlight. So a few developed surgebinding not full radiants Odium later followed humans to Roshar independently, and fund Dawnsingers as feeling betrayed by Honor and Cultivation, as Honor was giving a lot of preference to Humans. Just like an elder child feels when a new sibling arives. Odium then minipulated the Dawnsingers, and gave them power to start the first real war where the fused were created to push back the humans. Honor countered this by creating the Heralds. I think the first war/desolation did not had a oathpact, but was created at the end, when all the fused were sent to Braise, and Ishar suggested the means to contain them there. After many desolation, Knights Radiants were founded to keep the order and prepare humans for the next desolation.
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