[OB] Moash vs Kaladin and why they choose differently

[Jenet]

I agree that Moash may have had a harder start in his early childhood, and that that may be an explanation. But, as IntentAwesome mentions, Odium has a much easier job of conquering the ones who blames others for their problems. Shallan had a much more awful childhood than - I wager - every other character among our protagonists. And she never blames others, only herself. Which of course is "wrong", meaning that she did not have any responsibility for the actions of her parents. But she takes responsibility for the things she had to do, and the things she was not yet able to do. 

Which is a noble thing. Even if it is also the thing that breaks her. But she will be able to grow, and then become stonger and wiser because of it. 

I think that we are much more capable of choosing than many people think. We can choose to start to take responsibility for our actions. Just as Dalinar did right now. It's a struggle, as we have seen, but you need to try. And Moash never tries.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Jenet
added last paragraph + typos

[Nymeros]

6 hours ago, IntentAwesome said:

The parallels are important in highlighting not only the fundamental differences between Kaladin about Moash, but another way to explore a major theme in this book: the importance of choice and taking responsibility for your actions, and taking the next step when you've made a mistake. Odium's whole shtick is about not having to accept the consequences of your bad choices, namely pain. "Give the pain to me, let me deal with that," Odium says, as he drags you to the void. That's how he tempts Dalinar, but in the end, Dalinar owns his mistakes and the pain that resulted from them. 

Sometimes Kaladin tries to blame his circumstances (he blames lighteyes for what's happened to him) but in the end, he usually accepts that the choice is his to be a better person or do the right thing, regardless of what his circumstances are. Like Lirin says, somebody has got to start. Moash, on the other hand, continues to blame his poor choices on his circumstances. He recognizes that he has done something wrong—killing Elhokar didn't make him feel any better—but makes no attempt to correct his behavior. Instead, he just keeps sinking. 

Although given a very similar set of circumstances, Moash and Kaladin become two very different people. Moash is what Kaladin could have become if he'd made different choices. And Kaladin is what Moash could have been if he'd made different choices.

I can understand the themes that Sanderson wanted to explore with Moash.

...I just found it odd that his story was a play on Kaladins.

The 2 are just incredibly different and I cannot imagine either becoming or behaving as the other would. Theyre even influenced by magical nonsense to boot. Of course different people make different choices. When pushed to the brink, Moash, lacking any sort of support system, is dragged further down by Odium.

Kaladin when pushed to the brink attempts to free himself from pain by killing himself but is pulled back by Syl's influence. 

So from this we learn that it's better to have a good fairy guiding you rather than an evil god corrupting you.......alright.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Nymeros

[Egomere]

13 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

So from this we learn that it's better to have a good fairy guiding you rather than an evil god corrupting you.......alright.

That... that goes without saying right though? I mean I would definately prefer to have a good fairy rather than an evil god influencing me...

although being Evil God Pawn X does have it attractions (I hear they have good fitness training, free magical weapons and dental).

I think it's more to do with the individual choices people make and how they cope about problems though - and as others have said I think BS wrote them to highlight each other different choices and coping strategies.

Kaladin blames himself - deals with issues - becomes fantastic flying superdude with awesome Spren fairy guide.

Moash blames others - sinks into blaming others bot doing anything to change his situation - becomes Evil God Pawn X and presumably meets a highly unpleasant end which had being perfectly avoidable if he had taken responsibility for his own actions.

[Jenet]

Even Dalinar blames others, and because of that he is in Odium's claws for most of his life. Dalinar is way worse off than Moash. But Dalinar tries. And he gets some time, granted by Cultivation, to get used to the memories of what he was, before he has to confront Odium for real. Some time to grow stronger in his new ways. So yes, Dalinar also gets help. But that help comes from the fact that he asked for forgiveness when he went to the Nightwatcher many years ago. It started there. You have to try.

Moash never tries, so he gets no help. Moash blames others and is soaked with anger at everybody else and the only one who wants to help him is Odium. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Jenet
typos

[Fulminato he/him]

4 minutes ago, Jenet said:

Even Dalinar blames others, and because of that he is in Odium's claws for most of his life. Dalinar is way worse off than Moash. But Dalinar tries. And he gets some time, granted by Cultivation, to get used to the memories of what he was, before he has to confront Odium for real. Some time to grow stronger in his new ways. So yes, Dalinar also gets help. But that help comes from the fact that he asked for forgiveness when he went to the Nightwatcher many years ago. It started there. You have to try.

Moash never tries, so he gets no help. Moash blames others and is soaked with anger at everybody else and the only one who wants to help him is Odium. 

the funny side was moash asking kaladin to teach him using stormlight at the end of WotK.

his is the only bridge 4 member (alive) without that ability.

[Starla]

38 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Kaladin when pushed to the brink attempts to free himself from pain by killing himself but is pulled back by Syl's influence. 

So from this we learn that it's better to have a good fairy guiding you rather than an evil god corrupting you.......alright.

I think their differing qualities existed prior to the attraction of their magical companions. Kaladin's drive to protect people brought Syl to him, and Maosh's "passion" and actions with the Singers attracted the Fused and Odium's attention. Also, Kaladin's choice to protect Elhokar at the end of WOR was all him. Syl was gone at that point. He risked his live to protect someone he doesn't like, whereas Moash risked his friend's life to kill someone he doesn't like.

I also find it interesting that there is a death rattle about Moash and Kaladin: "All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds."

So, do we think that Kaladin and Moash are being set up to be Honor's Champion and Odium's Champion?

 

[Blacksmithki]

18 minutes ago, Starla said:

 

I also find it interesting that there is a death rattle about Moash and Kaladin: "All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds."

So, do we think that Kaladin and Moash are being set up to be Honor's Champion and Odium's Champion?

 

I would agree that Moash is almost certainly Odium's champion, mostly because Brandon always makes sure to develop his villains, and we don't really have anyone else that nicely fills that requirement as of yet, but it's hard to say for certain if Kaladin will be Honor's champion, the only real evidence we have are the parallels between their characters as the death rattle is considered to have already happened (Kaladin V Moash over the king in WoR) although I don't know if that is official or commen agreement.

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Egomere said:

That... that goes without saying right though? I mean I would definately prefer to have a good fairy rather than an evil god influencing me...

Well yeah...hence my confusion as the parallels between the two stories.

Quote

I think it's more to do with the individual choices people make and how they cope about problems though - and as others have said I think BS wrote them to highlight each other different choices and coping strategies.

Kaladin blames himself - deals with issues - becomes fantastic flying superdude with awesome Spren fairy guide.

Moash blames others - sinks into blaming others bot doing anything to change his situation - becomes Evil God Pawn X and presumably meets a highly unpleasant end which had being perfectly avoidable if he had taken responsibility for his own actions.

The thing is Kaladin didn't deal with anything alone. If not for his super magic fairy partner he would have committed suicide.....he wouldn't have become like Moash, he would have just been dead.

Even with Syl yelling in his ears, Kaladin still indicated in WoR that his anger amd hate are the product sof his environment as well...same as Moash later.

Unlike Kaladin, Moash had no support system whatsoever (I still find it odd that no one recognizes that Kal betrayed Moash) and Odium's manipulation begins almost immediately.

What would Moash have become if he had an angel on his soldier? We don't know.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Nymeros

[Jenet]

I really would like to support Moash, and I hoped for him all the way until he killed Elhokar. But then I realized he never even tried. 

Kaladin helped people all the time, long before he attracted Syl. She says that was what attracted her in the first place. He helped young boys in the army, but he also putting others before himself before that. He was learning to help others as his father's apprentice, even though he was very young and made mistakes and forgot the time, as all youngsters do. But he tries, and he learns. He also tries to help the little girl that fell down and broke her leg and her skull, and that was without his father telling him to do it. I get the image of a young boy that really wishes to help others. This attracts his honorspren. I get the feeling it is not so much his actions as his intentions that makes the difference.

Every time Moash gets a chance of doing something for others, he refuses. (Correct me if I have forgotten something) He is even the last of the bridgemen to follow Kaladin. I can't remember a single time that he did something without having a personal gain from it. Now, I had hopes that he would change, and perhaps he could have, if there was time. Elhokar also tried to change finally, and he actually did it, but too late. 

Anyway, the reason why Moash did not have any magical fairy saving him when he was about to to something stupid is that he never did anything to attract any magical fairies in the first place. 

This way of thinking is exactly what I feel Odium is looking for. The sullen "it's not my fault, I never got any spren to look after me".

I am the first one to look into people's backgrounds and find excuses for them. But this thing here is not about which cards you are given. It's about what you try to do with the cards you got. 

Sadeas and Dalinar both came from similar backgrounds. Chose differently.

Moash and Kaladin same stuff. It is their active choices and what they try to do that makes the difference.

[Nymeros]

4 hours ago, Jenet said:

Every time Moash gets a chance of doing something for others, he refuses. (Correct me if I have forgotten something) 

Yeah, saving Kaladin's life, desiring to save Dalinar from the Tower Battle though it could mean his death or imprisonment, and assisting the parshmen slaves are some bigger examples.

Quote

Sadeas and Dalinar both came from similar backgrounds. Chose differently.

Moash and Kaladin same stuff. It is their active choices and what they try to do that makes the difference.

Moash and Kaladin come from very different backgrounds....

Obviously Moash doesn't make the best choices (he admits it repeatedly) but paralleling him to Kaladin is just odd, imo. Moash doesn't strive to be like Kaladin so what's the point, I wonder.

[Kardenal_13 he/him]

6 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

I would agree that Moash is almost certainly Odium's champion, mostly because Brandon always makes sure to develop his villains, and we don't really have anyone else that nicely fills that requirement as of yet, but it's hard to say for certain if Kaladin will be Honor's champion, the only real evidence we have are the parallels between their characters as the death rattle is considered to have already happened (Kaladin V Moash over the king in WoR) although I don't know if that is official or commen agreement.

I actually think there is some evidence that Kaladin is going to be Honor's champion, though it's more circumstantial than anything:

1. Kaladin is the first "Main Character" we see and the guy most of us associate with the "Hero" of the story (at least I do). Now as the books have advanced Kaladin has been losing this role but he has still retained that "Hero" quality, though now it's expressed by other characters and not just us.
2. During the story Shallan and other characters mention that there is something about Kaladin "The way he moves", etc. I, and some other people based on some comments I saw, got the feeling that Kaladin was being groomed for something, IMO probably Honor's champion.
3. This one is kinda subjective, but IMO Kaladin is currently the strongest 1v1 fighter on the Radiants Side.

 

I also agree that Moash most likely is/will become Odium's Champion. I also think that the death rattle probably already happened, since it fits so well with the scene in WoR.

[Egomere]

18 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Yeah, saving Kaladin's life, desiring to save Dalinar from the Tower Battle though it could mean his death or imprisonment, and assisting the parshmen slaves are some bigger examples.

Except you could argue that although he chose to go back he didn't follow any of those choices through he 'went with them' rather than chosing and then LIVING with those choices - and assisting the parshman slaves lasted for all of 3 sentances before he just upped and went *storm it - ain;t my fault - I saved one from a beating but he didn;t do anything else - didn;t teach them, train them just stopped them being beaten by frightening everyone then left them alone.

[Nymeros]

2 hours ago, Egomere said:

Except you could argue that although he chose to go back he didn't follow any of those choices through he 'went with them' rather than chosing and then LIVING with those choices - and assisting the parshman slaves lasted for all of 3 sentances before he just upped and went *storm it - ain;t my fault - I saved one from a beating but he didn;t do anything else - didn;t teach them, train them just stopped them being beaten by frightening everyone then left them alone.

What happens after isn't Moashs reponsibility....he doeant have to nanny people. Even knowing he might be punished he still stepped in to assist the Parshmen with their load.

[Egomere]

6 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

What happens after isn't Moashs reponsibility....he doeant have to nanny people. Even knowing he might be punished he still stepped in to assist the Parshmen with their load.

except we're comparing Kaladin and Moash and why they are different.

They both made the chose to help the bridgemen / parshmen yet after the intial choice to do so Moash just sinks back and doesn't follow through with actually helping them and doesn;t care about them - again he just blames everyone else for the way of things. Kaladin made the choice then followed through and went out of his way to help them, he continued living by the actions of his choice - regardless of whether he would be punished or not.

That's why they are mirrors and Moash is becoming Odium's pawn rather than a potential radient.

[gbazz4 he/him]

8 hours ago, Jenet said:

I really would like to support Moash, and I hoped for him all the way until he killed Elhokar. But then I realized he never even tried. 

 

After WOR i was really pissed at Moash but was hoping he would redeem himself. At the start of OB i thought maybe this might happen. Then he killed Elhokar and Jezrien and i was done with him, no chance he is redeeming himself for me. 

10 hours ago, Starla said:

So, do we think that Kaladin and Moash are being set up to be Honor's Champion and Odium's Champion?

 

After Moash kills Jezrien that is exactly what i thought. Dalinar resisted becoming Odium's Champion so he still needs one and Moash killing Jezrien lends himself towards me labeling him most likely to become Odium's Champion. Then I think Kaladin fits at being Honor's Champion. It just makes too much sense to me to have it this way given how people have pointed out the parallel yet opposite nature of their character developments. 

[IntentAwesome]

10 hours ago, Starla said:

I think their differing qualities existed prior to the attraction of their magical companions. Kaladin's drive to protect people brought Syl to him, and Maosh's "passion" and actions with the Singers attracted the Fused and Odium's attention. Also, Kaladin's choice to protect Elhokar at the end of WOR was all him. Syl was gone at that point. He risked his live to protect someone he doesn't like, whereas Moash risked his friend's life to kill someone he doesn't like.

I also find it interesting that there is a death rattle about Moash and Kaladin: "All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds."

So, do we think that Kaladin and Moash are being set up to be Honor's Champion and Odium's Champion?

 

I agree with Starla about the parallels between Moash and Kaladin being less about advantages Kaladin may or may not have had, and more about the fundamental differences between the two characters. Yes, Kaladin had help from Syl. But as Starla pointed out, Kaladin was the kind of person who could attract Syl. Also, Moash had plenty of support: from Kaladin and Bridge Four. But he rejected them; he decided vengeance was more important to him than his friends. I'm having a hard time imagining anything Kaladin would value above Bridge Four. But, guess we'll see what that Fourth Ideal brings!

3 hours ago, Matt Snow said:

I actually think there is some evidence that Kaladin is going to be Honor's champion, though it's more circumstantial than anything:

1. Kaladin is the first "Main Character" we see and the guy most of us associate with the "Hero" of the story (at least I do). Now as the books have advanced Kaladin has been losing this role but he has still retained that "Hero" quality, though now it's expressed by other characters and not just us.
2. During the story Shallan and other characters mention that there is something about Kaladin "The way he moves", etc. I, and some other people based on some comments I saw, got the feeling that Kaladin was being groomed for something, IMO probably Honor's champion.
3. This one is kinda subjective, but IMO Kaladin is currently the strongest 1v1 fighter on the Radiants Side.

 

I also agree that Moash most likely is/will become Odium's Champion. I also think that the death rattle probably already happened, since it fits so well with the scene in WoR.

It looks to me like Kaladin and Moash are very much being set up as the championship battle. Moash is a likely candidate for Odium's champion, having already killed a king and a god. The biggest argument I see going against this is that Moash just doesn't really compare to Odium's first pick as champion. Even as a natural fighter, he's a far cry from the Blackthorn. Is there somebody we haven't been introduced to yet that could compare to Dalinar?

I've thought for a long time that Kaladin would end up being Honor's champion. To me, he is the character most closely aligned with Honor. And we know from Mistborn that that matters. It's no coincidence that Kaladin attracted the only Honorspren who was willing to break the rules and bond with someone. And we learned, in OB, just how much Dalinar has been drenched in Odium, despite currently holding what's left of Honor. And Kaladin does seem to be the best fighter, now that Dalinar is getting older.

What I'm deathly afraid of, though, with that duel likely coming at the end of book 5, is that Kaladin—after having failed so many times and constantly worrying about failing—actually fails in that duel, leading to whatever happens in the back 5. It would be so poetically tragic. 

Oh, as additional support for the death rattle being about the scene with Moash, Kaladin, and Elhokar in WoR: for the scene where Dalinar tells Kaladin about what happened between Elhokar and Roshone, the chapter title is called "The One Who Kills Promises." That's pretty definitive, imo, that Elhokar is the one who killed promises, and the death rattle refers to that scene in WoR. What will be interesting is if that flips, and Moash becomes the one who kills promises. 

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Egomere said:

except we're comparing Kaladin and Moash and why they are different.

They both made the chose to help the bridgemen / parshmen yet after the intial choice to do so Moash just sinks back and doesn't follow through with actually helping them and doesn;t care about them - again he just blames everyone else for the way of things. Kaladin made the choice then followed through and went out of his way to help them, he continued living by the actions of his choice - regardless of whether he would be punished or not.

That's why they are mirrors and Moash is becoming Odium's pawn rather than a potential radient.

My question was really "what's the point of all these parallels between the two?" They're so incredibly different and the influence a around them are totally different. How can one serve as a mirror for the other?

 

Kaladin tied his will to live with keeping Bridge 4 alive.....saving them was the only thing keeping him going.

Moash had a will separate from just hanging out with a bunch of slaves....once he had helped and trained them he had no reason to stay with them. He clearly has no desire for companionship.

[Egomere]

But I think that's just it the point of the parallels is just to emphaise how slightly different idea and actions can influence people lives so drastically. To show how 'minor' decisions and attitude changes can change someone's live so much.

As well as to create tension and excitement between the two for what people believe to be the Champion grudge match in the making - two people so similar yet so different on opposite sides of the board for the grand finale.

(I never said it was necessarily a good reason for the parallel .

[Starla]

12 hours ago, Nymeros said:

My question was really "what's the point of all these parallels between the two?" They're so incredibly different and the influence a around them are totally different. How can one serve as a mirror for the other?

I think the point is that they've been set up as friends since book 1. Kaladin considered Moash his closest friend in Bridge Four, the only one who thought of him as an equal rather than a superior. They are both darkeyed men of a similar age who have loved ones who have been harmed or killed by lighteyes, so they shared a common distrust of ligheteyed society. They also both are natural fighters and respect each other on that level, to the point where Kaladin gave Moash his shards. These shared traits have resulted in a bit of a bromance. This all ended in WOR the moment Moash tried to kill his bro to get revenge on Elhokar. And now we have an epic tale of besties turned enemies. One chose the light side and one chose the dark side, and it's bound to lead to some sort of confrontation in the end, likely with one of them getting killed.

[Nymeros]

Maybe. Honestly, I don't want Moash to be Odiums champion.....I do think he will wind up being used to push Kaladin into speaking his 5th oath though later in the series. For that, these plot parallels are unneeded but I suppose Sanderson wanted us to have Kaladin story in the back of our mind.

[Vissy]

They are different people with different temperaments. Ultimately, the difference between Kaladin and Moash runs deeper than just their choices to protect people: Kaladin was raised to value human life. Moash wasn't. Kaladin is not a psychopath who can kill without remorse. Moash, unfortunately, is. In many ways, Moash lacked the support system that would have saved him - but he also had a characteristic predisposition towards Odium. He's fatalistic and ultimately uncaring towards those he calls his friends, despite at least attempting to do so. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Vissy

[Nymeros]

11 hours ago, Vissy said:

He's fatalistic and ultimately uncaring towards those he calls his friends, despite at least attempting to do so. 

Hmmmm, he takes a fatalistic outlook in humanity's nature during Oathbringer but where do you get that he doesn't naturally  care about his friends?

[Vissy]

10 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Hmmmm, he takes a fatalistic outlook in humanity's nature during Oathbringer but where do you get that he doesn't naturally  care about his friends?

Reading comprehension.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Vissy

[Nymeros]

2 hours ago, Vissy said:

Reading comprehension.

Yes but what passages or lines did you read? He prioritizes vengeance over them but that doesn't mean he had no heart for them.

[Vissy]

He ultimately discards his friends where Kaladin ultimately came to their rescue.