[OB] Moash vs Kaladin and why they choose differently

[Jenet]

Kaladin and Moash come from similar backgrounds and as far as I can see they have similar temperaments, enough for Kaladin to consider Moash his only good friend at a point in time. They both grew up with loving relatives to take care of them, and lose loved ones because of the exact same blunder of Elhokar`s.

Both feel hatred towards Elhokar because of this. What is it in their characters that they end up on different sides? Do we get answers to this question from the text, and/or can we speculate?

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

9 minutes ago, Jenet said:

Both feel hatred towards Elhokar because of this. What is it in their characters that they end up on different sides? Do we get answers to this question from the text, and/or can we speculate?

Kaladin became a soldier to protect Tien, he was born into a surgeon's household with a regard for human life as sacred. Kaladin still hates Elhokar at the end of WoR, but he's not willing to sacrifice himself to that hatred. Moash doesn't have that core ideology that defines him, he was a wanderer and then sought only revenge. He has no purpose, which is why he's become the perfect tool.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Jenet]

I agree. I also think that Kaladin's well developed concience, which is also giving him his troublesome guilt feeling, is what saves him. I agree that his upbringing has helped developing this trait, but as far as we know, Moash's upbringing with his grand parents was also a good and loving one. But Moash soes not seem to have concience at all? His anger is not tempered by his concience. Why?

And when I look at it that way, perhaps Kaladin's guilt feeling is not such a bad thing? It gives him depression and perhaps it is part of his inability to say the fourth ideal - for the time being. But it also helps him temper the anger that otherwise would have sent him down the same road as Moash. Perhaps all these things that break people are the same things that help them grow? And become worthy? (And yes we know that is how they become Radiant, but in real life as well) 

So: Why did Moash not have the same quality? Why doesn't he grow? He gets plenty of chances. He even gets his own potential "bridge crew". Exactly the same opportunities as Kaladin.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Jenet
typos

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Possibly internal vs external locus of control.

 

Kal very much internal locus- he thinks he can do anything and has a hero complex but also blames himself for things gone wrong. Moash, from what I've seen, tends to externalise. Good things happen to him because of Kal, and bad things because of others. Nothing is ever achieved, in his mind, by him, and nothing is ever his fault (or rarely).

 

 Neither of these sorts of people is intrinsically better- both tend to have advantages and cons in real life (and it's an interesting real life psychological topic), but it's easy to see here how one could lead Kaladin to grow, be a Radiant but be totally harsh to himself all the time, and the other lead Moash to vengence and rejecting personal responsibility.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

As for why does one have internal and the other external locus? Well, a variety of things from genetics, upbringing (not good or bad in general but the way of thinking about oneself and the world), culture etc all play a part 

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

25 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Kal very much internal locus- he thinks he can do anything and has a hero complex but also blames himself for things gone wrong. Moash, from what I've seen, tends to externalise. Good things happen to him because of Kal, and bad things because of others. Nothing is ever achieved, in his mind, by him, and nothing is ever his fault (or rarely).

I think this is true. Thematically the idea of taking responsibility for your choices is important in the Stormlight Archives. It's the basis of the story that Wit tells Kaladin in TWoK, and the thing that keeps Dalinar from succumbing to Odium in the OB final battle. Moash has a lot of sympathetic qualities, but that flaw makes him susceptible to Odium.

[Jenet]

Good point and I agree. One might think that Kaladin's parents have instilled this internal locus in him by giving him responsibility and letting him feel the consequences of this errors when he slips, instead of taking back the responsibility and scolding him whenever he doesn't live up to their expectations.

We don't know much about Moash's grandparents, but they might perhaps have been the stereotypical grandparents that are loving but lenient, or unable to delegate responsibility?

[IntentAwesome]

I also think that Kaladin’s need to help others redirects his energy and allows him to focus on other things. Even as a slave, his motivation wasn’t vengeance on his masters, but helping others find freedom. The well-being of others was more important to him than personal vengeance  . 

Even when Kaladin nearly joined the assassination plot, the argument that swayed him was that it would be better for others, Alethkar, if the king were dead. Not one of retribution, not even against the hated light eyes.

Whereas Moash never seems to focus on anything but his own pain and his need to get back at people. That’s why he was unable to lead the Singer group. He doesn’t actually care about helping them. 

[Jenet]

Good point.

So Kaladin is basically constructive, while Moash is destructive. 

Kaladin is internal locus, Moash is external locus

Kaladin is blaming himself, Moash is blaming others

They get more or less exactly the same chances, and they choose differently because of their different characters. I find this very interesting. Thanks for this discussion!

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Kaladin was raised to be a surgeon, he had huge responsabilities and his father put a great weight and expectation on him since he was a child. Moash seemed to have almost no responsabilities, to the point he left his grandparents because he was bored and had nothing to do. 

Kaladin joined the army to protect Tien (protect). Moash joined to gain Shards (vs glory).

Kaladin's greatest dream was to return home to have a boring life with his brother safe. Moash's greatest dream was to kill Elhokar.

Kaladin helped Bridge 4 to prove to himself he could make a difference and help others. Moash helped the parsh...not so sure of this one, I think because the injustice on them reminded him too much of the bridges, but partly also because it was easy. The Fused basically told him to do whatever he wanted. If he'd had to actually work for it like Kaladin did with Bridge 4 I bet Moash wouldn't have bothered.

Finally, Kaladin blames himself for everything under the sun. Moash doesn't take responsibility even for the things he does with his own two hands.

Basically Moash had greater opportunities than Kaladin (wasn't made a slave, Kaladin gave him Shards and training, etc) and threw them all away. Kaladin went rock bottom and rose up. The difference is in two hugely different people and personalities.

Edited November 19, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Vissy]

Odium didn't even prepare Moash in any way for this. He did it all by himself. Despicable guy, really just despicable.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Vissy

[Jenet]

Yup, and I can't resist the feeling that Sanderson just wrote these two characters in this way so we could compare them, and their characters.

[Vissy]

I can't help but think that Moash is just there to get wrecked by Kaladin when they finally do end up fighting in earnest. Kaladin's had two chances now to cull a significantly weaker Moash. So third time's the charm?

Edited November 19, 2017 by Vissy

[Starla]

I think Kaladin’s family deserve a ton of credit for who he is today. Lirin is a healer and a pacifist, and he instilled the ideal of “heal rather than harm” in Kaladin from a young age. Kal began training as a surgeon at eight years old and he’s been responsible for people’s lives for more than half his life. He's tried to save people and failed, and had them die in his hands. This helped develop a strong compassion and empathy, and a sense of respect and responsibility for the lives of others. 

Hesina thinks outside the box. Rather than being beaten down by negative circumstances, she looks on the bright side and tries to make the best of bad situations. She encourages Kaladin to think for himself and make his own choices rather than doing what’s expected. She even encourages him to learn to write and become a scholar or stormwarden, if that’s what interests him. One of my favorite quotes form her on WOK is when she, Kaladin, and Tien are lying on the roof in the rain. Lirin comes along and asks what they are doing and she says “feasting on irregularity, dear.” I think her influence has inspired Kaladin to look for alternative ways out of difficult situations, rather than giving up and resigning himself to a miserable fate.

There is also Tien, who was a little bundle of joyful light. He could cut through Kaladin’s gloom and brought out his protective instinct. When they went into the army, Kaladin took responsibility for Tien’s life, and when he died, he took responsibility for his death. To fill the hole of Tien's loss, Kaladin began to look for others who needed protection. As is his nature, he took responsibility for every death.

Combine the influence of these people with Kaladin’s own inner strength and strong will to persevere (traits which I personally believe can be inborn into a person), and you get what he is today, a Child of Honor.

Moash probably did not have the benefit of this type of upbringing. He lost his parents at some point, and his grandparents were much older than him. We don’t know the details of his upbringing, but he probably did not have the strong guidance and close family interactions that Kaladin had. His grandparents seem like nice enough people, but grandparents are often more likely to let a child roam free without much supervision or structure. I can imagine Moash growing up on the streets of Kholinar getting into trouble and being a bit of a punk (total speculation in my part, but it makes sense). He left to search for shards and glory, so his focus was making his own life better rather than making others’ lives better.

Now, when put into the same situation, Kaladin's natural instinct is to help and protect others and take responsibility for everything that happens, while Moash’s natural instinct is to help and protect himself and blame others for everything that happens. It’s possible to change and go against your natural tendencies in an extreme circumstance (like Kaladin nearly supporting the King’s assassination or Dalinar no longer being the Blackthorn), but in most cases people will take the path of least resistance and follow the patterns they’ve established earlier in life. That’s what Moash did in this book and now he’s an agent of Odium. (And wow that’t much longer than I intended!)

[Jenet]

Great post, Starla, and I agree. One of the things I love with these books is that people can change. Some actually are changing a lot. And there is forgiveness to be had. But it seems there are those who can change and those who can't.

Sadeas, for example. He got so many chances, and just pissed on all of them. So the author just says "good riddance" and kills him. Amaram is of the same calibre. And Moash. 

I am always sort of hoping everyone will turn out to be good in the end. But that is not going to happen. Szeth turned around, which I hoped he would. Taravangian turns to Odium. The only God Taravangian believed in was himself, and when he (or the diagram) fails, he turns to Odium instead, unable to believe anybody else has the capacity to win.

Is there a pattern as to what kind of character that may change? All of Bridge Four have all kinds of "sins" to burden them down from before. Venli is obsessed with power, but is in the process of changing. Elhokar was egotistical and a coward, but changes a lot. 

Dalinar has great hopes for all of his possible resources. Amaram, Sadeas and Taravangian represent huge resources for the alliance against Odium, and I understand his insistence that he needs to try to get them into his alliance. But at the same time, it is so important to shake out all illoyal parts before this war really starts. 

I guess my crypticpspren is humming and having a nice time wondering what makes a good man or woman in the end. My nature is to want to save everyone. But as Kaladin, I need to realize it cannot be done. Some are beyond saving, but who? And why?

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

8 hours ago, Jenet said:

And when I look at it that way, perhaps Kaladin's guilt feeling is not such a bad thing? It gives him depression and perhaps it is part of his inability to say the fourth ideal - for the time being

I disagree with this. Kaladin's guilt isn't the cause to his depression. His depression is clinical. If anything, his depression fuels the guilt more.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Generally, the characters that hit rock bottom and get a second chance use it well: Bridge 4, Szeth. Amaram, Sadeas and T always had things well and easy, never had to truly struggle for the right to life or sleep at night or survive through the day. That made them get inflated egos and convinced them they were god's gift to humanity, causing them to use people like chest pieces and develop zero empathy. Which is ironic for T who has huge empath most of the time. But what does he do with that empathy? Help others? No, cry and feel sorry for himself.

Thats another part of the problem: would be saviors. People that believe only they can save the world are almost always despicable people with only arrogance and some skill to have reached that mighty high opinion of themselves.

The only character which is an outlier and that is simply a piece of crem is Moash. Of course, I wasn't surprised by what he did on OB, I was just reinforced. From the moment he tried to kill Kaladin on WoR when Kaladin had killed Syl I called him every single name you can imagine, and none of them pretty. I'm a bit fanatic on that topic, but betraying your friends is the biggest sin a person can do. Loyalty is the bedrock of everything good and pure: trust, love, friendship, selflessness. Destroy loyalty and there is nothing good in the world. Moash began down this path the moment Kaladin was lying at his feet dying in WoR and instead of stopping Moash stepped forward to finish him. 

After that there was a tiny chance of redemption by sacrificing himself, if he did what he did in hot blood. But the chance was tiny and he didn't even consider it, instead tossed it away to become Odium's dog. 

I never really saw Szeth as evil, or despicable, if anything I reluctantly admired him. He had a code and he followed it doggedly. It was cowardly, but...I can't help but admire it. He followed it when he hated it, he followed it when it was driving him insane, not just when it was easy or convenient. I can't help but admire that dedication. He just needed the right code to follow, and luckily with his second chance he picked a good moral compass .

I had two lists of despicable people in Roshar. Those that pretend to save the world but are only after themselves was in order of most despicable to least: Gavilar, Amaram, Sadeas, T. And then Moash on his own as he was something even worse than those four. Although I need to rearrange my list after OB, thats my old list from WoR .

I think I'm going to place Amaram and T even on spot 1 for now, and Gavilar delegated to spot 2, since as far as we know he wanted to destroy the world for his own glory but he didn't serve Odium. But need to think more on Amaram and T, although they are making it hard to decide who is more despicable.

 

[Jenet]

Yes. Rock bottom really does things to you, doesn't it? Thanks for a very good answer.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

26 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think I'm going to place Amaram and T even on spot 1 for now, and Gavilar delegated to spot 2, since as far as we know he wanted to destroy the world for his own glory but he didn't serve Odium.

I am not sure on that. Between giving the spheres to the Parshendi, and his goal to bring back the Desolation's we get this information.

Quote

“I continued your father’s work! I found the secret, Elhokar. Spren, ancient spren. You can bond with them!”

“Bond…” Elhokar’s mouth worked, as if he couldn’t understand the very word he spoke.

“Have you seen my Radiants?” Aesudan asked. She grinned. “The Queen’s Guard? I’ve done what your father could not. Oh, he found one of the ancient spren, but he could never discover how to bond it. But I, I have solved the riddle.” OB Chapter 84

 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

2 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I am not sure on that. Between giving the spheres to the Parshendi, and his goal to bring back the Desolation's we get this information.

 

Ohhh, you are right. So yes, maybe Gavilar was serving Odium, knowingly or not. I still need to reread OB and digest it before I will be able to speak confidently of it wihout forgetting so many pieces ^^.

[Fulminato he/him]

i find clear a this point the first and more important mechanism for put one in the hand of odium is 'give odium the passion, feed him whit the feel of a man'. dalinar was near crushed for the guilty of a life of slaughtering and excess, amaram is consumed by failing someone (“No,” Amaram said. “No, he’ll never forgive me.” “The bridgeman?” “Not him.” Amaram tapped his chest. “Him. I’m sorry, Dalinar.”), moash convince himself don't be responsable of the whole affaire, it is a elhokar fault for the die of whis grandparent, it is the king error for his enslavement,he blame kaladin for the foil the king's assassination. he don't bear any guilt. kaladin blame himself for any lost, any situation, he push the self guilt to the breaking point. odium cannot take the kaladin guilt, cannot take the emotion from him.

i think this is the difference between the two.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Ohhh, you are right. So yes, maybe Gavilar was serving Odium, knowingly or not. I still need to reread OB and digest it before I will be able to speak confidently of it wihout forgetting so many pieces ^^.

Gavilar gave one of those to Eshonai and one of them to Szeth, so I would guess that he wanted the Parshendi to bind to them, not he himself.

[Jenet]

Ah, so Gavilar had the black sphere because he wondered how to bond the spren in it? Makes sense. So, the Kholins were really close to doing the ultimate blunder there. Good thing only Aesudan swallowed it, and was far away at the moment.

I really have to read the book again, I read too fast. I alway do that the first time. Just have to save up some extra time, I spent what I had saved up binge-reading.

Addition edit:
We agree that Moash is basically crem, and has no real values. But then another question jumps up in my mind: Why did Kaladin consider him his best friend? There must have been some qualities there after all? Or was Kaladin so desperate that he was decieved?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Jenet

[Nymeros]

On 11/18/2017 at 2:44 PM, Jenet said:

Kaladin and Moash come from similar backgrounds and as far as I can see they have similar temperaments, 

That doesn't seem to be the case really. Kaladin had a stable home and family life when he was young. He received an excellent education and had an awesome roll model in the form of his father who taught him the value of healing, saving lives, and service.

On the flip side, Moashs parents died and he spent his youth running with mercenaries and traveling over Alethkar with caravans.

On 11/19/2017 at 6:33 AM, Vissy said:

Odium didn't even prepare Moash in any way for this. He did it all by himself. Despicable guy, really just despicable.

Hrmmm, Odium didn't prepare him but the Alethi society did. He wasn't born evil....he was just broken by his hopelessness at being able to affect change or find justice, his God awful luck.

On 11/19/2017 at 6:41 AM, Jenet said:

Yup, and I can't resist the feeling that Sanderson just wrote these two characters in this way so we could compare them, and their characters.

Yeah, but I'm not sure why.

Moash's story in this book is a super condensed version of Kaladins story in Way Of Kings.....

-No hope to return home

-Kills an extraordinarily empowered foe but loses his comrades and winds up alone

-Is made a slave and put to work

-Protects and trains a group of his fellow slaves

It seems like such pointless parallels....

[IntentAwesome]

4 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

That doesn't seem to be the case really. Kaladin had a stable home and family life when he was young. He received an excellent education and had an awesome roll model in the form of his father who taught him the value of healing, saving lives, and service.

On the flip side, Moashs parents died and he spent his youth running with mercenaries and traveling over Alethkar with caravans.

Hrmmm, Odium didn't prepare him but the Alethi society did. He wasn't born evil....he was just broken by his hopelessness at being able to affect change or find justice, his God awful luck.

Yeah, but I'm not sure why.

Moash's story in this book is a super condensed version of Kaladins story in Way Of Kings.....

-No hope to return home

-Kills an extraordinarily empowered foe but loses his comrades and winds up alone

-Is made a slave and put to work

-Protects and trains a group of his fellow slaves

It seems like such pointless parallels....

The parallels are important in highlighting not only the fundamental differences between Kaladin about Moash, but another way to explore a major theme in this book: the importance of choice and taking responsibility for your actions, and taking the next step when you've made a mistake. Odium's whole shtick is about not having to accept the consequences of your bad choices, namely pain. "Give the pain to me, let me deal with that," Odium says, as he drags you to the void. That's how he tempts Dalinar, but in the end, Dalinar owns his mistakes and the pain that resulted from them. 

Sometimes Kaladin tries to blame his circumstances (he blames lighteyes for what's happened to him) but in the end, he usually accepts that the choice is his to be a better person or do the right thing, regardless of what his circumstances are. Like Lirin says, somebody has got to start. Moash, on the other hand, continues to blame his poor choices on his circumstances. He recognizes that he has done something wrong—killing Elhokar didn't make him feel any better—but makes no attempt to correct his behavior. Instead, he just keeps sinking. 

Although given a very similar set of circumstances, Moash and Kaladin become two very different people. Moash is what Kaladin could have become if he'd made different choices. And Kaladin is what Moash could have been if he'd made different choices.