theory [OB] Unsurprisingly, Feather wants to talk Renarin

[Fulminato]

11 minutes ago, BarrileteCosmico said:

This is my interpretation as well. It seems that radiants get access to their secondary/nondominant surge at a later point, it may simply be that he has not uttered the necessary words yet (although perhaps Glys would/should have mentioned this). 

If we are correct in assuming that Glys is corrupted and has access to some form of Odium's power, does this make Renarin champion potential? That would really screw with Dalinar's/Adolin's/Jasnah's/Khaladin's minds

ivory after jasnah don't kill renarin spoke of the 'strange but right' of the action. actualy the kholin prince is a wildcard, gyls is a radiant spren, corrupted by sja-anat. he can gape between the two (honor/cultivation - odium) and make the decisive action to defeat odium. (mistborn era 1 spoiler)

Spoiler

marsh made inquisitor put him under the influence of riun, but his position make possibile the action pivotal to the defeat of the shard

and don't forget in the taravangian - odium scene, when rayse look at the diagram some word are hidden to him, and inside them the name of renarin kholin.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Fulminato

[emailanimal]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:53 AM, Leyrann said:

On 11/16/2017 at 9:44 AM, FeatherWriter said:

I feel like I'm developing a little mini-theory that certain orders find certain Surges easier than others. Shallan picks up Illumination far faster than Transformation. Skybreakers learn Gravitation much faster than Division, to the point of being forbidden to use Division before their third oaths. Kaladin uses Adhesion naturally but isn't able to get Gravitation down until he sees the example from Szeth. Lift has Abrasion down pat, but has to be coached through using Progression by Wyndle, who also says that Regrowth would be too hard for her (though she later figures it out in a moment of desperation). 

And all three of the Truthwatchers we see use Regrowth easily, yet none of the three seem to dabble with Illumination very deeply on screen. Ym used his Progression intentionally but Stump healed unconsciously. I think the same is happening with Renarin, who finds Progression just easier than Illumination, but still has that surge and will be able to use it in time.

Let me expand on that: It appears like every single Order has an easier time learning their "first" Surge than they do their "second" Surge, in the order that we know the Surges. I think that, so far, only Dalinar doesn't hold to this rule.

 

Add to it Jasnah's goddess like prowess with Soulcasting and her somewhat more moderate use of Transportation. Which probably means that Willshapers will get blink.

 

On 11/16/2017 at 11:26 AM, MoS03 said:

Not to sidetrack, but between Renarin and Venli, are we getting some foreshadowing for the idea that Honor and Odium aren't entirely incompatible?

I think this is less about Odium and Honor not being incompatible and more of Honor/Cultivation-spren and Voidspren being perfectly compatible with both humans and dawnsingers.   Also, Venli and Renarin have somewhat different situations. Renarin has bonded a single spren who appears to be corrupt.  Venli has bond with two spren, one of which has been trapped by the other. Trapped, but not exiled.

[FeatherWriter]

4 hours ago, BarrileteCosmico said:

If we are correct in assuming that Glys is corrupted and has access to some form of Odium's power, does this make Renarin champion potential? That would really screw with Dalinar's/Adolin's/Jasnah's/Khaladin's minds

I feel like Renarin might actually make a good champion against Odium, actually. I think with his surges and Stormlight, he'd be a formidable human foe, but more importantly, as Taravangian found out, there's something about Renarin that Odium doesn't seem to be able to predict. The Diagram is flawed in a way that Renarin Kholin has something to do with. 

[Knight Oblivion]

I hope Glys being corrupted means that Renarin's future sight is voidbinding. Since he clearly also uses at least one surge (I agree with the value examples being of Illumination. I see no reason why it can't function differently for Truthwatchers, corrupted spren or not), it would mean he uses both. Renarin being a dualbinder would be amazing!

 

And here I was thinking Kaladin could be one by bonding a voidspren. Much has changed in the last few weeks.

[Blightsong]

On 11/16/2017 at 10:58 AM, FeatherWriter said:

That feels like it's backwards to me, Blight, since then Renarin would be the only Voidbinder we see and his situation is obviously weird. We've got that whole chart of Voidbinding powers but the weird corruption situation is the only thing that actually qualifies? It seems more likely that there's different orders of powers like we see with the Fused that match that chart, which means that the Fused would be the Voidbinders.

I think that Truthwatcher Voidbinders are weird. There are several things on the Voidbinder chart that sets them apart from the other symbols present.

Spoiler

Notice how the Truthwatcher symbol is perfectly symmetrical while the other orders are not. Also take note of what seems to be a double eye of the Almighty at the center of the Truthwatcher symbol, complete with a sideways hourglass shape that is often used to describe double eyes.

I think we just don't know enough about Voidbinding to say whether or not Renarin seems to be one, but surely his powers are nothing we have seen yet. You also didn't really engage my point that the Fused and their powers seem to be derived from what looks exactly like Fabrial magic (a system we know can produce the exact powers we see from the Fused in this book).

Sorry for the late reply! I haven't read through this whole thread, so let me know if you talked about something relevant to my post and I missed it.

[Fulminato]

2 hours ago, Blightsong said:

I think that Truthwatcher Voidbinders are weird. There are several things on the Voidbinder chart that sets them apart from the other symbols present.

  Hide contents

Notice how the Truthwatcher symbol is perfectly symmetrical while the other orders are not. Also take note of what seems to be a double eye of the Almighty at the center of the Truthwatcher symbol, complete with a sideways hourglass shape that is often used to describe double eyes.

I think we just don't know enough about Voidbinding to say whether or not Renarin seems to be one, but surely his powers are nothing we have seen yet. You also didn't really engage my point that the Fused and their powers seem to be derived from what looks exactly like Fabrial magic (a system we know can produce the exact powers we see from the Fused in this book).

Sorry for the late reply! I haven't read through this whole thread, so let me know if you talked about something relevant to my post and I missed it.

all symbols of the void-orders are symmtrical. the void-truthwacher had TWO symmetrical axies, the other only one.

[Blightsong]

17 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

all symbols of the void-orders are symmtrical. the void-truthwacher had TWO symmetrical axies, the other only one.

Yup, that's what I meant. Thanks for the correction. 

[yurisses]

Going off of Glys's "He doesn't see what is, but of what is to come", my theory is that Truthwatchers have the same kind of visions, but of the present. Hence their name.

And also, I think that's Truthwatchers' and Renarin's manifestation of Illumination. I don't think they can lightweave illusions. They have visions instead. This has been my theory for a long time but showing how Bondsmiths have fundamentally different uses of Adhesion and Cohesion reinforces my conviction. Spiritual Illumination? ...

The problem with my theory is that none of the other surges we have seen are involuntary...

Edited November 19, 2017 by yurisses

[Leyrann]

25 minutes ago, yurisses said:

showing how Bondsmiths have fundamentally different uses of Adhesion and Cohesion reinforces my conviction.

Tension, not Cohesion.

Anyways, my problem here is that, while we're indeed told that different Orders use their Surges differently, and we indeed see this in action with Tension and, at least a little bit, with Adhesion, we also see Dalinar use Adhesion to stick Kadash to the ground, which is the same way Kaladin uses Adhesion.

[DiamondMind]

27 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Tension, not Cohesion.

Anyways, my problem here is that, while we're indeed told that different Orders use their Surges differently, and we indeed see this in action with Tension and, at least a little bit, with Adhesion, we also see Dalinar use Adhesion to stick Kadash to the ground, which is the same way Kaladin uses Adhesion.

Hey we agree on something! Plus, it seems windrunners and skybreakers use gravitation nearly identically, same with how truthwatchers and edgedancers use progression. There's also a WoB which says that Renarin's Illumination is only slightly different than Shallan's, though I can't find it right now.

Edited November 19, 2017 by DiamondMind

[FeatherWriter]

1 hour ago, DiamondMind said:

Hey we agree on something! Plus, it seems windrunners and skybreakers use gravitation nearly identically, same with how truthwatchers and edgedancers use progression. There's also a WoB which says that Renarin's Illumination is only slightly different than Shallan's, though I can't find it right now.

We also have the fact that Jasnah thinks she can teach Shallan Soulcasting, even though they're of different orders. I believe that surges are mostly identical across Orders, though they might perhaps be used for different purposes.

For instance, while Lightweavers seem inclined to use illusions to hide truth and tell lies, I wonder if there might be a way for Truthwatchers to use Illumination to reveal a situation, or call attention to something that might have otherwise been missed. To literally illuminate the truth. Or, if Renarin gets a handle on his Illumination, I think he might be able to use it to show people what his visions look like, which could be very powerful.

[Turnblade Jade]

On 11/16/2017 at 0:19 AM, Pattern said:

More plausible (Renarin uses Radiant surges normally) for me is that Glys was a legit Truthwatcherspren agreeing to a corruption(to be read in the sense of mixing of different kinds of Investiture) by Sja-anat. This mixing should give Renarin certain Voidbinding powers, too.

Or perhaps Glys approached Sja-anat and converted her, giving her a peice of himself, of Honor, to allow her the freedom to change sides. Doesn't really match up with her calling him her son, but I like the idea.

[BarrileteCosmico]

What do you all make of this epigraph

Quote

Don’t tell anyone. I can’t say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this.
—From drawer 30-20, a particularly small emerald

Seems like Renarin was not the only Truthwatcher with visions of the future

[FeatherWriter]

2 hours ago, BarrileteCosmico said:

What do you all make of this epigraph

Don’t tell anyone. I can’t say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this.
—From drawer 30-20, a particularly small emerald

Seems like Renarin was not the only Truthwatcher with visions of the future

I almost wonder if this is another red herring to try to throw people off the "there's something up with Renarin still" scent. Like perhaps that Truthwatcher just predicted this was coming without actually having future visions, but was phrased that way to be like "seeeeee all Truthwatchers are like this! Stop thinking something is wrong, Feather. Quit it, stop guessing things before the reveal"

Nice try, Brandon. I'm wise to your tricks.

[Willow]

On 16-11-2017 at 7:01 AM, FeatherWriter said:

Glys has been corrupted by the Unmade Sja-anat.

I think you're right about this, but I also think there's more to it. This depends a bit on my assumption that the Oathgate spren are not 'true spren' (while they seemed powerful, I'm not sure they're on the same sapience level as the spren of the Knights Radiant, but I might be wrong). Sja-anat tells Shallan:

"Odium suspects that you survived. He thinks something strange happened to the Oathgate because of our influence - we've never managed to Enlighten such powerful spen before. It's believable that something odd might happen."

I believe we know that Glys has been bonded with Renarin for quite a while, which means Glys' 'corruption' would have come before the corruption of the Oathgate spren. Yet Sja-anat says she's never managed to change even powerful lesser spren before. This all makes me think what happened to Glys was something different than the normal 'Enlightenment' that Sja-anat does to spren.

[Fulminato]

On 19/11/2017 at 10:14 PM, Leyrann said:

Tension, not Cohesion.

Anyways, my problem here is that, while we're indeed told that different Orders use their Surges differently, and we indeed see this in action with Tension and, at least a little bit, with Adhesion, we also see Dalinar use Adhesion to stick Kadash to the ground, which is the same way Kaladin uses Adhesion.

i think a use of cohesion is the liquefaction of the stone amarant/sja-anat try to block kaladin during the fight

11 hours ago, FeatherWriter said:

I almost wonder if this is another red herring to try to throw people off the "there's something up with Renarin still" scent. Like perhaps that Truthwatcher just predicted this was coming without actually having future visions, but was phrased that way to be like "seeeeee all Truthwatchers are like this! Stop thinking something is wrong, Feather. Quit it, stop guessing things before the reveal"

Nice try, Brandon. I'm wise to your tricks.

i think is more related to the oath fo the order

"Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did" WoR chapter 52 epigraph

 

2 hours ago, Willow said:

I think you're right about this, but I also think there's more to it. This depends a bit on my assumption that the Oathgate spren are not 'true spren' (while they seemed powerful, I'm not sure they're on the same sapience level as the spren of the Knights Radiant, but I might be wrong). Sja-anat tells Shallan:

"Odium suspects that you survived. He thinks something strange happened to the Oathgate because of our influence - we've never managed to Enlighten such powerful spen before. It's believable that something odd might happen."

I believe we know that Glys has been bonded with Renarin for quite a while, which means Glys' 'corruption' would have come before the corruption of the Oathgate spren. Yet Sja-anat says she's never managed to change even powerful lesser spren before. This all makes me think what happened to Glys was something different than the normal 'Enlightenment' that Sja-anat does to spren.

she refer to the spren of the oathgate, don't make sense if refer to the renarin spren..

[Dreamstorm]

I don't have anything of substance to add, but just wanted to note that I wasn't too enthralled with Renarin prior to OB, but his arc in OB, and mostly his viewpoints, have completely changed my interest level.  I'm shocked by how much I took to him in just a few pages of writing.  The hug from Rock and his explanation of his emotions with being touched... ahhhh.  Possibly one of my favorite moments encapsulating a feeling and making you as the reader really understand it.  (I'm not a "touchy" person myself, which is likely why I so strongly related.)

[Willow]

1 hour ago, Fulminato said:

she refer to the spren of the oathgate, don't make sense if refer to the renarin spren..

True, yes, but if the Oathgate spren were the first of that power she managed to Enlighten, assuming she corrupted Glys (using the same method) before that seems to contradict what she's saying to Shallan?

So then the only options I can see are: the Kholinar Oathgate spren have been corrupted for longer than Renarin and Glys have been bonded, Glys' corruption might be something different/new, or Sja-anat's lying.

In my comment I was assuming the second one was true, and wondering what exactly that would mean for the characters.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Willow

[Fulminato]

22 minutes ago, Willow said:

True, yes, but if the Oathgate spren were the first of that power she managed to Enlighten, she couldn't have changed Glys (using the same method of corruption) before that? Or she lies.

but when the oathgate spren was corrupted? when glys started to follow renarin? 

i still think glys is a truthwatcher spren corrupted by odium influence, but the timeline works agains sja-anat touch. from the last chapter of venli i think we can assume stormlight cannot be used by a odium-aligned magic user (venli eyes cannot be 'set' red if she hold stormlight), sill we don't know nothing of the nine unmade, overlapping power is high improbable. (so no corruption power). we know glys was corrupted somehow.

Quote

Renarin Kholin knew he wasn’t actually a Knight Radiant. Glys had once been a different kind of spren, but something had changed him, corrupted him. Glys didn’t remember that very well; it had happened before they had formed their bond.

no easy riddance of the question.

[Willow]

9 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

but when the oathgate spren was corrupted? when glys started to follow renarin? 

i still think glys is a truthwatcher spren corrupted by odium influence, but the timeline works agains sja-anat touch. from the last chapter of venli i think we can assume stormlight cannot be used by a odium-aligned magic user (venli eyes cannot be 'set' red if she hold stormlight), sill we don't know nothing of the nine unmade, overlapping power is high improbable. (so no corruption power). we know glys was corrupted somehow.

I edited my earlier response a bit to be more clear, but yes basically those are the questions I have (I don't know about Venli). Even amongst the Unmade, Sja-anat is apparently  'unique', which is weird, since like you said, there's only nine of them and they all do different things anyway.. But Sja-anat seems the be amongst the most intelligent and powerful, so if she couldn't corrupt true spren, and says she still hasn't in part 4 of the book, then who is responsible for Glys?

I'd like to think it was Sja-anat who corrupted Glys, since she seems to want to switch sides anyway, and she does call Glys her son, but I can't quite make all the factors we know align in favour of that theory.

And yeah, Renarin and Glys' POV is no help here. Maybe Glys will still get more of his memories back, and then we'll know more?

 

[Fulminato]

9 minutes ago, Willow said:

I edited my earlier response a bit to be more clear, but yes basically those are the questions I have (I don't know about Venli). Even amongst the Unmade, Sja-anat is apparently  'unique', which is weird, since like you said, there's only nine of them and they all do different things anyway.. But Sja-anat seems the be amongst the most intelligent and powerful, so if she couldn't corrupt true spren, and says she still hasn't in part 4 of the book, then who is responsible for Glys?

I'd like to think it was Sja-anat who corrupted Glys, since she seems to want to switch sides anyway, and she does call Glys her son, but I can't quite make all the factors we know align in favour of that theory.

And yeah, Renarin and Glys' POV is no help here. Maybe Glys will still get more of his memories back, and then we'll know more?

 

i think the most dangerous unmade is ba-ado-Mishram, she is decipted like a general of odium and grant voidlight and facilitate the form of power.

renarin should be a flashback character in the second five books. i hope know some truth before that.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Fulminato

[Egomere]

Sja-anat being the Glyss' corruptor would make sense as that's what she's supposed to be but it really depends on whether he is a genuine truthwatcher spren (what are they anyway?) or not.

She says it took effort to corrupt the oathgate watcher spren but are they below Potential Radient-level spren or the same? Also I was thrown by how Glys claims to have been corrupted before the bond with Renarin.

And whilst I think she was talking about Glys as her 'son' that doesn't mean she was and it could have been another spren that we've come into contact with... Just need some more info. Will be re-reading OB in a week or two anyways so might be able to tease something more out then.

[rjl]

Shallan at least thinks that Sja-anat is Glys' corrupter, see her thoughts after reading Mraize's letter in chapter 122 (page 1226 in the US hardcover)

Other things I'm curious about:

1. Page 1121 why does Glys say "My sorrow, Renarin. I will give you my sorrow" - at first I thought this was him reading the writing from the vision of Dalinar failing BUT it doesn't read that way, it rather reads as Glys giving Renarin Glys' sorrow. Maybe just a linguistic oddity but this stands out to me now.
2. Page 1132 Ivory speaking "Jasnah, this is right. Somehow it is." and continuing on the next page "It is not what makes sense, yet it is still right. How. How is this thing?"
3. Glys lives inside Renarin's heart - just like a voidspren would live in a parshman's gemheart.

The quotes from point 2 certainly seem to point to this being the fist time this sort of thing has happened unless it was always kept secret in the past (otherwise Ivory should have known about it)

[+Bliev]

I find it intriguing that Sja-Anat sees herself as “enlightening” spren whilst we see it as “corruption”. These splinters of Odium, the unmade, are interesting in that they have their own intent separate from Odium that have grown and focused over centuries, if not millennia. Kind of reminded me of the Eden story: the tree of good and evil. Is it about disobedience or knowledge? Sja-Amat may see herself as enlightening spren as to their true nature, giving them knowledge or awareness in ways they might not have had otherwise. We shall see. We don’t know whether her corruption is actually changing anything about the spren’s function, or just how they look? 

My connection here to Glys, i suppose, is that if it’s not really something “bad” that has corrupted Glys, but rather a component of odium’s original intent that’s been spun off into Sja-Amat, and is somewhat “neutral”, then Ivory’s comment makes sense. Ivory sees that something that shouldn’t be, actually is: a component of Odium is not, er, odious? (Sorry, couldn’t help myself)

[marianmi]

There are 2 parts of a radiant's power:

* the physical representation of surges, which can be used the same by all orders that have it (e.g. skybreakers and windrunners use lashings the same; adhesion is used in the same way by bondsmiths and windrunners)

* some (non-physical?) effect of surges or combination of surges that results in some extra-power we see the radiants have (e.g. Kaladin creating the shield of windspren)

Bearing this in mind, Adolin has the surges of the Truthwathers and hence can do the same basic things. Corrupted higher level spren I think is quite different than corrupted low-level spren, since you have sentience and some kind of Intent in the mix. So even if the corruption seems to have changed some non-physical effects, the Intent of Glys seems to be the same as a Truthwatcher spren.

So I would say that Renarin is different than Truthwatchers in the sense that he can't do all the things a real Truthwather can do (which we don't know; maybe seeing the present/past, to be related to his seeing the future?), but he can do some other stuff instead (seeing the future).

Probably because seeing the future (via Odium) is changing the future, one of Odium's greatest advantages (being able to see further into the future than any other Shard) is negated - because his power can be used against him...

I think Renarin for now can only see the more likely future paths (like Jashnah killing him, Dalinar succumbing to Odium) but he could get better in the future at looking at more diverse paths events can follow.

Another interesting possibility is that Renarin sees what Odium sees/thinks the future holds, so he can effectively be a spy for the KR against Odium.