Gender identity in the Cosmere

[Necessary Eagle]

Do you think that transgender individuals in the Cosmere would be the result of a mismatch between their Physical and Cognitive aspects?

If such a person became a KR or Returned, would they change biological sex?

[Tsidqiyah]

Although transgenderism could be interpreted as a "disorder" this is too simplistic. I believe stormlight healing has more to do with bringing physical and cognitive in harmony with spiritual (identity) then just a physical/cognitive alignment. As we see with Lopen's arm regrowth from WoR gender swapping is not outside the realm of impossibility 

Those who are physically Gender A but feel, and/or perceive themselves as gender B, C, or D exist on a wide spectrum. Some may accept this dichotomy and it has become their identity to live with the dysphoria to those who reject it and actively seek to change it by surgical, chemical, or psychological means. as such every person would react slightly differently to stormlight and the changes it brings.

[Necessary Eagle]

WoB to the rescue: it's possible.

[Iridium Savant]

12 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

WoB to the rescue: it's possible.

That WoB has a lot of (as Brandon has said before) wiggle room...

All it asks is if someone using investiture could change their body to match...   The answer to those kinds of questions is always going to be yes, because with enough investiture it is possible to do many, many things that are practically impossible to do with the levels of investiture that a mortal could actual get ahold of/control.  We need to be specific with these kinds of questions.

My speculation:

I do not believe that a person targeted with a regular powered surge of progression would have their body grow or loose appendages based on their personal perception of themselves.  I say this about the surge of progression because we have seen examples of Renarin trying to heal people who lost their legs/arms just days ago not regaining the use of those limbs. 

I do think however because of the increased ability of a KR base stormlight healing we would be getting a lot closer to someone being actually transformed by the spiritual healing.  Lopen lost his arm long ago and constantly makes jokes about being a one armed man, he perceived himself at least partially as still being a one armed person while still holding the idea of being a two armed person.  The regular surge of progression would not have healed his arm, but once he had access to the squires stormlight base KR healing it began to grow.

I am really interested to hear anyone's thoughts on mismatched cognitive/physical aspects.  That point is making me think.

[Wandering Investor]

1 hour ago, Iridium Savant said:

I do not believe that a person targeted with a regular powered surge of progression would have their body grow or loose appendages based on their personal perception of themselves.  I say this about the surge of progression because we have seen examples of Renarin trying to heal people who lost their legs/arms just days ago not regaining the use of those limbs. 

I do think however because of the increased ability of a KR base stormlight healing we would be getting a lot closer to someone being actually transformed by the spiritual healing.  Lopen lost his arm long ago and constantly makes jokes about being a one armed man, he perceived himself at least partially as still being a one armed person while still holding the idea of being a two armed person.  The regular surge of progression would not have healed his arm, but once he had access to the squires stormlight base KR healing it began to grow.

I'm under the impression that healing through stormlight and progression work in similar ways, with hints that progression can be pushed further with skill. Lopen's arm healing is from his not accepting the loss of his arm. The people not regaining their arms/legs already accepted the loss. 

 

[Calderis]

This discussion just came up in discord the other night, and here's my thoughts after that discussion. 

I do not believe that gender is a spiritual trait. In the Cosmere, all healing flows outward from the Spiritual, is filtered through the Cognitive, and is made manifest in the Physical. 

If gender is a Spiritual trait, than that means that for someone to be transgender, there would have to be some misalignment between the physical and the Spiritual that needed to be healed. 

In contrast, I think that without being a Spiritual trait, gender is always a Cognitive and physical trait, filtered through perception. This would allow for healing to change to the way in which people perceive themselves, non-binary genders included, instead of the Spiritual trying to assert a "correct" gender. 

The Spiritual realm is the realm of ideals. I find it fitting by that note to think that things like gender, race, and other differences between us are all matters of perception. As an ideal, we're all human. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Calderis

[Llarimar]

The idea of this make sense to me, but I think it just leaves too much wiggle room, as @Iridium Savant said earlier.  What we're talking about is Spiritual healing altering the body so that it more closely aligns with a person's perception of themselves.  It seems to me, though, that Spiritual healing would only work towards healing injuries, like cuts or severed limbs.  I don't think a person with a healthy body could change that body through Spiritual healing, because... there's nothing to heal - no injuries or wounds. 

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

I do not believe that gender is a spiritual trait. In the Cosmere, all healing flows outward from the Spiritual, is filtered through the Cognitive, and is made manifest in the Physical. 

If this is how Spiritual healing works, then it wouldn't make sense for a person to be able to change their biological sex if they perceive themself as a different gender, because healing originates in the Spiritual, not in the Cognitive, which is where a person's perception of themself would lie.  If a transgender person could change their sex so that their body matches their Cognitive perception of themselves, then it seems that other dubious things would be possible as well - if you Cognitively saw yourself with huge, ripped muscles, then you could use Investiture to "heal" yourself and achieve that ideal, or if you ideally saw yourself with sparkling pink eyes then you could change your eye color.  Just because you identify a certain way, I don't think your ideal self in the Spiritual Realm would change to match it.  

Although at the same time... this does become confusing because your perception of yourself must make some difference.  Kaladin, for example, is unable to heal his slave brands because he sees himself as deserving them, even though I'm sure his ideal Spiritual self doesn't have slave brands.

[Calderis]

@Llarimar which is why I said it exactly as I did.

Perception can't alter something that has a spiritual record, and physical ability would have a record as something developed through actions. 

For tje physical sex of the body... At what point is that ever something "accomplished?" why does it need a spiritual component?

Anything that is written into the spiritual, be it a limb, or the alterations of Savantism, asserts itself as the "correct" form of the physical body. I don't see why gender has to be one if those. 

As I said, the ideal of the spiritual just being "human" makes perfect sense to me. Whichever variety you are within that is an amalgamation of Cognitive perception and physical genetics.