Steeldancer he/him Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) So this is a complete overhaul of the "Unmade are made from the Heralds breaking" theory. That lasted until I found this WoB- Quote Questioner With the Heralds we know that there's only one left... one Herald that's still bound to the Oathpact-- Brandon Sanderson OK, only one Herald was about, was abandoned-- You'll find out the mechanics of that in the next book. Questioner So are we going to see more of Taln... Brandon Sanderson You will see more of-- the Oathpact is not completely broken, the others are still bound to the Oathpact. Questioner Even though they kind of sort of said they were abandoning it? Brandon Sanderson Yes, so there's still connection there, so you'll find out more about all of this and how it works. If my theory were correct, the Oathpact should have been done when Taln broke, because it predicts that his connection to the Oathpact is what the torture is breaking, and then being used to make an Unmade. But the Oathpact is still together. Which means this connection is not being turned into an Unmade. So, look out. A bunch of WoBs coming. Quote What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end darkanimereal1 (paraphrased) Oh. So they've got a time limit. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again. luke.spence (paraphrased) So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think. #desolations #heralds #oathpact Quote Questioner Are all of the Heralds still alive? Brandon Sanderson The Oathpact has not been broken, so yes. Quote Questioner Are the Unmade the analogs to Heralds? Brandon Sanderson There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same. For instance: Many of the- the Unmade are referenced by Taravangian in this, and he uses a phrase for them, and that is correct, that's what they are. Quote luke.spence (paraphrased) Are the Heralds actually aware that Taln is back? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Are the Heralds aware that Taln is back? Uh, you're implying that this person actually is Taln. *smiles* Which is not guaranteed. It's not guaranteed. However, the return of the Voidbringers does indeed indicate to them, in their mind, that he would have returned. darkanimereal1 (paraphrased) So they assume because the Voidbringers are returning-- Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Because the Voidbringers are returning, would be a clue to them that Taln has returned. Quote David J Foster I name my computers and smartphones after spren. But I am out of names. Is there a name you wouldn't mind revealing? Brandon Sanderson Well, do you need good spren? Or is the occasional evil spren acceptable? David J Foster Your call! And evil spren would be fantastic for my new phone. Brandon Sanderson Ulim. (Also, the Unmade count as spren. You could look those up.) Quote Skaiiwalker (paraphrased) Can you give me a hint about the Parshendi gods? It can't be Odium, right? Because it's plural... Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) No, it's not Odium. The Parshendi gods... *he paused here for a while* are closer to what the humans would call "Heralds". Quote ROCkUguys13 (paraphrased) Is there any sort of civilization on Braize? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Braize is the weirdest one because it's kind of like a prison. So, is there any civilization on Braize? Kind of. It's like a prison. That's all I'll say. Quote Questioner So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is-- Brandon Sanderson Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact. Quote luke.spence (paraphrased) How many parties were there to the original Oathpact? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds). Ok i think that's pretty comprehensive. So here are a few major points that this theory needs to address: 1. The Nature of the Oathpact. I think, thanks to @FiveLate theory, that the Oathpact was quite simply swearing to be those attributes, and in return they get long life, an awesome sword that gives magical powers, and basically godhood. This is supported by the one above that says they broke their oaths. 2. Why Braize? One idea I originally thought was that humans hopped over from Braize, according to the Iriali Long trail and the Tranquiline Hall belief. While the Tranquiline one is not ended by any WoB I can find, Quote Questioner The Long Trail of the Iriali, was one of the first three lands Braize? Brandon Sanderson Hehehe. No. Excellent question So, no Long Trail through Braize. Also, Roshar was inhabited by humans before Honor and Cultivation... so... Quote Lirins hand (paraphrased) Do humans predate the two Shards' arrival on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Humans were on Roshar before Honor, Cultivation, and Odium arrived. So Yeah. But the Listeners were still first...? Anyway, moving on. 3. Why do the desolations work the way they do? Specifically I refer to two above, that Heralds have to leave in order for Desolations to end, and that they begin when Heralds break. (Actually, I can't find that one. This one Quote AhoyMatey (paraphrased) Is a Desolation caused when a Herald breaks under torture? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) This person is asking the right kinds of questions. (It’s since been confirmed from another Q&A that when the Heralds leave the place of torture a Desolation occurs. Taln is STRONG.) Says its been confirmed, but I can't find the confirmation). Anyway, why would it end only when the Heralds LEAVE? That's... so odd. This implies that something about the Heralds being on Roshar gives Odium the... leave to start a Desolation. I honestly don't know how to reconcile that. 4. Where do the Unmade come from? They are implied to be related to the Heralds, but at this point i don't think it's specifically what I said before. I think it might have something to do with the Torture, maybe Odium created a mock imitation or something, but I'm pretty confident that it is not related to the Orders of the Knights. If it's related to anything, it'll be the Heralds. I... just don't know how yet. Anyway, this is what I've got for the requirements of a likely theory. It's gotta answer this stuff. I just don't have a direct answer at the moment, so I guess I'll call it a thread. Please comment any theories below that might fit this stuff. I did find some WoBs that we'll be getting more Taln and Oathpact discussion in Oathbringer, so that'll satisfy my need to see my boy Taln. Edited November 9, 2017 by Steeldancer 3
aemetha he/him Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) On the listeners being on Roshar first, and humans being there before the shards. Consider that listeners and humans have interbred, making them of the same species by real world terminology. It's possible that listeners were once humans who adapted to the ecology of Roshar, and that a second group (and third for the Iriali plus any later world hoppers) of humans arrived that hadn't adapted to the ecology. The groups are still closely enough related to interbreed. In other words, the listeners could be both the listeners and the humans that were there before the shards. Of course, it could just be a case of "Well, it's magic so real world science doesn't count" too. Edited November 9, 2017 by aemetha
StormingTexan he/him Posted November 10, 2017 Posted November 10, 2017 22 hours ago, aemetha said: It's possible that listeners were once humans who adapted to the ecology of Roshar, and that a second group (and third for the Iriali plus any later world hoppers) of humans arrived that hadn't adapted to the ecology. I think this WoB disproves this. Quote HorseCannon I didn't realize horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other? Brandon Sanderson There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.) Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.
aemetha he/him Posted November 10, 2017 Posted November 10, 2017 In that case either Adonalsium created the species capable of magically interbreeding, or the species were subsequently altered to allow it. Smells like a kind of cultivation-ish thing to happen. New theory. Humans and Parshendi were created or evolved, and Cultivation altered them to cultivate a hybrid.
StormingTexan he/him Posted November 10, 2017 Posted November 10, 2017 Or a Listener just walked up to a Human at a bar and said “Did it hurt when you fell from the tranquiline halls?” 7
Calderis he/him Posted November 10, 2017 Posted November 10, 2017 Regardless of what the question was in this WoB, the answer makes it pretty clear that the listeners, like the rest of Roshar's ecology, were created by Adonalsium. Quote CarolaDavar's brother (paraphrased) [a question about my cousin's theory on parshendi] Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The parshendi were created to be part of the Rosharan ecosystem.
Wreith he/him Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 This seems as good a place as any to ask this question: Did the heralds come first or the Unmade? Seems like honorable folk choosing to fight an eternal war would make more sense as a response than as something preventative. Maybe the Heralds were the answer to the Unmade, not the other way 'round
Wreith he/him Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Steeldancer said: Heralds came first. without some source that is fantastically unhelpful
Steeldancer he/him Posted November 13, 2017 Author Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Wreith said: without some source that is fantastically unhelpful Gimme a minute to finish checking Arcanum. I was going to add it in. Ok, an initial look isn't turning things up. But I vaguely remember knowing that the Oathpact came before Odium came to Rosharian system. I need to do a bit more looking. Ok @Wreith i can't find anything. Maybe it's in one of the books? @Calderis or some other Arcanist, can we find out if the Oathpact took place before Odium came to Roshar? I swear I've seen something like this before and its not on Arcanum under anything related to Odium, Oathpact, Unmade, or Heralds. Edited November 13, 2017 by Steeldancer
Calderis he/him Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) @Steeldancer we know that the Oathpact was originally between only the Heralds and Honor, and that it only tangentially binds Odium. His imprisonment is greater than just the Oathpact. While I believe that he Heralds swore to Honor prior to his arrival because of that "originally," I don't know of any explicit statement as such. Sorry I can't offer more. Edit: I seriously doubt though, that the Heralds came after the Unmade, or even that Odium was already there, because of this. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/167/#e3029 Quote Maximus (paraphrased) None of the Heralds mention or address the Almighty in the opening scene of [The Way of Kings]; it's a little strange, considering they are his champions. Have they seen or spoken to the Almighty? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, the Heralds have spoken with the Almighty. They also feel that what has been done to them is partially his fault. They are all broken in some way and aren't really honorable anymore. Maximus (paraphrased) Was that how and why the deal with Odium showed up? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) RAFO. If Odium had arrived, and the Oathpact was a response, I feel they'd have known what they were getting into, and wouldn't "blame" Honor. Edited November 13, 2017 by Calderis
Wreith he/him Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, Calderis said: If Odium had arrived, and the Oathpact was a response, I feel they'd have known what they were getting into, and wouldn't "blame" Honor. See, I wonder if Honor had already somehow trapped Odium, but then Odium began affecting Roshar and Honor needed warriors. They could agree to fight to protect their world, but the fact that it was necessary would be Honor's fault by trapping Odium there. bear in mind, I'm not really convinced. It's just an idea that occurred while reading this thread. edit: ooh ooh, I think I'm actually right. Cool. I'm not sure how to feel... Edited November 14, 2017 by Wreith
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