Ralph Elorim Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 Quote "Shallan knew Re-Shephir at the same time as the thing came to know her. The spren tugged and prodded at Shallan’s bond with Pattern, seeking to rip it free and insert herself instead. Pattern clung to Shallan, and she to him, holding on for dear life." Oathbringer Chapter 30 Mother of Lies Originally, I believed the Unmade to almost be Odium's Heralds, however this quote makes them seem more like large spren, not completely aware of those around her. Can they really bond with a Human or Parshendi for that matter, this could have large implications. What type of power could one gain from a bond with the Midnight Mother... Quote "Her creations had come to imitate what she saw in the world, but lacking love or affection. Like stones come alive, content to be killed or to kill with no attachment or enjoyment. No emotions beyond an overpowering curiosity, and that ephemeral attraction to violence. Almighty above… it’s like a creationspren. Only so, so wrong." This quote definitely makes Re-Shephir seem like she is a "de-creation" spren. Perhaps a creation spren corrupted by Odium, also talked about her seeming like she was "missing" something, perhaps she was missing a bond with someone. Any thoughts, quotes or WOB? I find this very interesting. 7
Calderis he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 Just for the sake of discussion. Quote Questioner Can the Unmade be bonded? Brandon Sanderson Wow, plausible... Yes, or possible, I should say. The Unmade definitely qualify as spren. 2
Ryder Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 Well Syl and Pattern needed their bonds to regain sentience in the physical realm. Shallan notices that Re-Shephir isn't completely cognizant, and Taravangian writes as well that most of the Unmade are mindless. Perhaps if they are able to bond a human they would gain sentience? Another possibility I've been toying around with is that maybe Re-Shephir is a corrupted artform parshendi. Shallan wonders if Re-Shephir used to be human, but I think it's just as likely she used to be a parshendi. Shallan might not make that leap right away as she's used to thinking of dull parshmen, and I don't think many, if anyone, on the human side knows that the parshendi change forms by bonding spren. Anyway, we know that the parshendi can take on artform by bonding a creationspren and Shallan mentions that Re-Shephir is creationspren-like in some ways. Plus Rlain says that their gods are "the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy." I've always thought that the voidspren as whole were the parshendi gods, but Rlain's quote makes it sound like the gods are more than just sentient pieces of Odium's investiture. Perhaps the Unmade were the original parshendi who were corrupted by Odium to fight against the humans. I imagine if humans were colonizing/conquering Roshar, Odium might have offered power to the parshendi to fight back. 3
duladen he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 @Ralph Elorim I have nothing of substance to add I just want to say I absolutely love your username. +1 1
shawnhargreaves he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 2 hours ago, Ralph Elorim said: this quote makes them seem more like large spren, not completely aware of those around her. I'm increasingly thinking that the word "spren" is so vague as to be almost meaningless. We've seen a range from small weak mindless things, to Syl, all the way up to the Stormfather. I think spren just means physical representation of a primarily cognitive being, in the same way the word "animal" can mean any physical being from an ant to a human. The latest chapters do strongly suggest the Unmade could bond a human, but they also suggest the Unmade once were human (or perhaps listener). Hmm, does that mean a human could bond a Herald? 1
duladen he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 2 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said: I'm increasingly thinking that the word "spren" is so vague as to be almost meaningless. We've seen a range from small weak mindless things, to Syl, all the way up to the Stormfather. I think spren just means physical representation of a primarily cognitive being, in the same way the word "animal" can mean any physical being from an ant to a human. The latest chapters do strongly suggest the Unmade could bond a human, but they also suggest the Unmade once were human (or perhaps listener). Hmm, does that mean a human could bond a Herald? I would hesitate to brush with such a broad stroke when describing spren. As I understand it, "spren" is merely the local word for a Splinter and although they come in a vast array of shapes and sizes, they are fundamentally the same thing. The reason for my hesitation is that there are other beings in the Cosmere, such as the Heralds, which are Cognitive Shadows. In my understanding, referring to Cognitive Shadows as spren would be incorrect. 1
The Invested Beard Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 3 hours ago, Ryder said: Perhaps the Unmade were the original parshendi who were corrupted by Odium to fight against the humans. I imagine if humans were colonizing/conquering Roshar, Odium might have offered power to the parshendi to fight back. We have a WoB that confirms the humans were on Roshar before the shards arrived, so this part wouldn't really make sense. 1
Ryder Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said: We have a WoB that confirms the humans were on Roshar before the shards arrived, so this part wouldn't really make sense. Hmm, good point. I didn't know that, but went and searched through the new WoB archive (which is awesome!!!) and I think found the ones you were talking about. I'd always assumed that humans/horses/Shinovar arrived on Roshar with the Shards some time after the Parshendi and the rest of the ecosystem were set up, since they really don't fit with the rest of the planet. Still, even with the humans predating the arrival of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, I think Odium could have created or used existing tension between humans and parshendi when he arrived. I'm basing that on this WoB: Quote Questioner Odium has, as far as I understand it, something like the meaning of God's devine wrath. How is wrath on its own able to cause such terrible destruction? He primarily attacked (not counting him in) dishardic worlds (Sel, Roshar). Could he have sowed discord between the Shards there to an extent of them fighting against each other? Brandon Sanderson That is a good theory. That he got them to fighting each other. I won't tell you whether it happened or not, but it is a very well theory. It's fully within his capacity. That's a sort of thing that he does. Once he invested in Roshar and started creating voidspren, he would be able to directly influence the parshendi by getting them to bond the voidspren if the parshendi felt they had a good reason to do so. It would be similar to the present day parshendi bonding stormspren to help them fight the Alethi because they felt they had no choice other than be exterminated.
aemetha he/him Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 7 hours ago, Ralph Elorim said: Originally, I believed the Unmade to almost be Odium's Heralds, however this quote makes them seem more like large spren, not completely aware of those around her. They could be both. We don't know how heralds are made, but we do know that radiants were made by spren copying what Honor had done with the heralds. Perhaps Honor took humans he believed were deserving and created splinters of himself (likely embodying the attributes that came to be associated with the respective heralds) which the humans then bonded with. Spren saw how splinters bonded and repeated the process with other humans creating the Knights Radiant. Odium saw how Radiants and Heralds were bonded to splinters and copied the feat by creating the unmade to bond with humans and creating his own heralds.
Yata he/him Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, aemetha said: Odium saw how Radiants and Heralds were bonded to splinters and copied the feat by creating the unmade to bond with humans and creating his own heralds. The Unmade probably predate the Radiants. By the way, an Unmade Who bonds with Someone Will be less a Treat than before. He will be no more free to go around and follow his purpose without break the Bond. By WoB, the Unmade are on Roshar to extent the influence Odium can't direct performe for some techical problems, restrain them Will make them less efficient without a real benefit Edited November 9, 2017 by Yata
Steeldancer he/him Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 Another WoB. Quote Questioner Someone asked you last year if the Unmade could be bonded and you said technically yes. Have we seen any evidence of this, or will we? Brandon Sanderson Uhh, you...eh... Not yet, no. It doesn't really happen. Technically it could but it just doesn't really happe
Salkara Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Yata said: The Unmade probably predate the Radiants. By the way, an Unmade Who bonds with Someone Will be less a Treat than before. He will be no more free to go around and follow his purpose without break the Bond. By WoB, the Unmade are on Roshar to extent the influence Odium can't direct performe for some techical problems, restrain them Will make them less efficient without a real benefit I get the feeling that an Unmade bonding a person would look very different than the bonds we've seen. I get the feeling that had Re-Shephir actually bonded Shallan, she would've shattered the cracks in Shallan's soul, and Shallan would essentially become a human husk, completely deranged, or a mindless minion. If we use sex as a metaphor for Nahel bonds, I'd say true spren look for consensual encounters while the Unmade are probably all rapists. Edited November 9, 2017 by Salkara 1
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