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Creation of New Shardblades and Plate / Original Betrayal


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Weird theory that I just came up with while on my Re-read of WoK...  During Dalinar's vision at Feverstone Keep during the day of Recreance, he heard screaming that he didnt know where it was coming from.  I believe this was the dying spren trapped within the Shardplate and blades while they were losing their glow.  This leads me to believe that the shards themselves are created when the Knight says the 5th ideal and bonds their spren into the blade and plate, so that when the shards were abandoned, the spren were killed, thus the betrayal that decimated the spren.  This is also why Syl hates shards, because they are basically the corpses of past bonded spren.

 

I know that could all be worded better sorry, but just wanted to get this down while it was in my head.

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It could be the spren dying within the armor and blade or it could be their feeling of betrayel that the KR abandoned their "gifts" and cut the bond, doom all the spren to be the mindless, feeling less as they were before (Syl talking to Kaladin) and by that giving up on saving the world.

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“I’m sorry. He does not like me to speak of him. It makes him anxious. The knights’ breaking of their oaths was very painful to the spren. Many spren died; I’m certain of it. Though Ivory won’t speak of it, I gather that what he’s done is regarded as a betrayal by the others of his kind.”

 

Unless Jasnah is wrong, many spren did die during the Recreance.

 

We also know:

1. Szeth has no Spren and most likely he is holding Jezrien's Honourblade (source of his Surgebinding).

2. Shardplate interferes with Szeth's Lashings.

3. KR are shown to be using some of their Surges while in Plate.

 

Some possible explanations:

1. KR can only use some of their powers while in Plate. (I doubt it)

2. Plate and Blade were forged by a Surgebinder with help of their Spren and therefore "attuned" to their Surgbinding. (I'm thinking this is most likely)

3. Spren turn into Plate and Blade after achieving KR status.

 

Feel free to add to the evidence/explanation list.

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2. Shardplate interferes with Szeth's Lashings.

 

This is not quite true. Szeth's sucking in of Stormlight interferes with the gemstones powering the Plate. When he absorbs Stormlight from the gems, it most likely just causes his Shardplate to fail so it doesn't provide any enhanced mobility. This is why he has to choose between Plate and Lashings; if he Lashes, his Plate becomes a few hundred pounds of dead weight on him.

 

It seems plausible that Shardplate was powered by the Stormlight that Surgebinders leak. They wouldn't have used gemstones in ancient times for anything but repairing it after a battle if the theory is true.

Edited by Moogle
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This is not quite true. Szeth's sucking in of Stormlight interferes with the gemstones powering the Plate. When he absorbs Stormlight from the gems, it most likely just causes his Shardplate to fail so it doesn't provide any enhanced mobility. This is why he has to choose between Plate and Lashings; if he Lashes, his Plate becomes a few hundred pounds of dead weight on him.

 

It seems plausible that Shardplate was powered by the Stormlight that Surgebinders leak. They wouldn't have used gemstones in ancient times for anything but repairing it after a battle if the theory is true.

That's true, but also:

His Lashings wouldn't work directly on someone in Shardplate...

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This is not quite true. Szeth's sucking in of Stormlight interferes with the gemstones powering the Plate. 

 

Actually, Moogle, it does seem to be true. Szeth says this on page 20 if the paperback:

 

His Lashings interfered with the gemstones that powered Shardplate, and he had to choose one or the other.

 

Is there a quote about sucking in the Stormlight of the Plate's gemstones that you proposed? I would assume that a Surgebinder could decide what source s/he is drawing from, instead of just sucking like a vacuum all the surrounding Stormlight in the area.

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Is there a quote about sucking in the Stormlight of the Plate's gemstones that you proposed? I would assume that a Surgebinder could decide what source s/he is drawing from, instead of just sucking like a vacuum all the surrounding Stormlight in the area.

 

Well, you're going to have to explain why Szeth claims his Lashings interfere with the gemstones (gemstones, not Lashings) of his Plate if you want to claim that Surgebinders can specifically choose what Stormlight they want to inhale. Radiants could Surgebind in Shardplate, so it's likely Szeth can as well. And the Radiant in Dalinar's vision inhaled from a bag of gems at her side, so we don't know if the Shardplate inside had gems or not.

 

I mean, from a theoretical standpoint, we can say that Szeth cannot use Shardplate because the Investiture inside of it will interfere with his Lashings like it does on other Shardplate (for the same reason one Feruchemist cannot use the metalmind of another; Shardplate is keyed to the original Radiant who wore it), but we don't have evidence of it specifically being keyed to the original Radiant.

 

It seems like the Plate changes shape to fit its new user, so I think that the Investiture changing to allow the wielder to Surgebind within it would be reasonable.

Edited by Moogle
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Maybe the Nahel bond turns Syl into a Shardplate(and Blade?) later on.I mean transformation not trapped inside.

or she become completely Physical being, a woman?

 

Kaladin frowned, leaning down to inspect her more closely. She seemed… different. Had her face changed shape?

<skip>
She walked up his fingers and he could actually feel a little weight, which was unusual.

 

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Unless Jasnah is wrong, many spren did die during the Recreance.

 

We also know:

1. Szeth has no Spren and most likely he is holding Jezrien's Honourblade (source of his Surgebinding).

2. Shardplate interferes with Szeth's Lashings.

3. KR are shown to be using some of their Surges while in Plate.

 

Some possible explanations:

1. KR can only use some of their powers while in Plate. (I doubt it)

2. Plate and Blade were forged by a Surgebinder with help of their Spren and therefore "attuned" to their Surgbinding. (I'm thinking this is most likely)

3. Spren turn into Plate and Blade after achieving KR status.

 

Feel free to add to the evidence/explanation list.

This is along the line that I am thinking and posted a week or so ago in another thread.   

 

1.   It is the only thing that makes sense considering that the further you go back in time, the less technology they have.      

 

2.   It also goes along with the fact that when the KR gave up (Deserted) their Shardplate and Shardblades they stopped Glowing.    The Sprens trapped within being betrayed (loosing their Link or Dying).

 

I think that counts as two additional pieces of evidence.

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1.   It is the only thing that makes sense considering that the further you go back in time, the less technology they have.      

 

Can you explain what this has to do with any of this? Are you suggesting that the lack of technology would prevent the KR from creating the Shards in any other way?

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I'm not sure there was never technological advances beyond what primitive technology Kalak saw. I thought it was assumed the Desolations were so devastating that any advances were wiped out and mankind was basically forced to rebuild again after every Desolation. After all, how would Kalak have known the current technology was primitive if he had never experienced more advanced technology before then. (also assuming he is native to Roshar, which is far from certain.)

 

That being said, I'm not sure it was humans who created Blades and Plate in the first place. Blades go somewhere when not in use (presumably to the cognitive or spiritual realm) and the Plate is definitely different from when they were used by the Radiants. If it was the spren who created them and embedded a spiritual or cognitive aspect into them that bonded with humans, it's quite possible that spren would be harmed when that bond is broken. 

 

My problem with this is that Jasnah is proposing it. I know she's an in-world eminent scholar, etc. But I still don't buy her Parshmen/Voidbringer theory, so I think it's likely she's misinterpreting some things. This could be another one of those times.

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That's true, but also:

His Lashings wouldn't work directly on someone in Shardplate...

 

Shardplate is apparently Invested, so you can't directly interfere with it via another form of Investiture.  But the abilities that Investiture grants still need to be powered by Stormlight.  One of those abilities is the strength to move the plate in the first place.

 

I agree with Moogle here.  I don't think you can really target your inhalation, at least not more than generally, and gemstones on your person are near enough to be drained faster.  It seems likely that leaking Stormlight would power Plate in place of gems, which would be a way to bring parity with Voidbinders, who Szeth says according to legends don't leak Stormlight.  You may be leaking Light, but since that's powering Plate for you, it just gives you a whole bonus set of abilities.

Edited by TomR
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2.   It also goes along with the fact that when the KR gave up (Deserted) their Shardplate and Shardblades they stopped Glowing.

 

Thanks for reminding me. I forgot to add that on. We also know from WoB (can't seem to find it now...) that there is something different between modern Plate and the Plate that the KR wielded. 

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This is not quite true. Szeth's sucking in of Stormlight interferes with the gemstones powering the Plate. When he absorbs Stormlight from the gems, it most likely just causes his Shardplate to fail so it doesn't provide any enhanced mobility. This is why he has to choose between Plate and Lashings; if he Lashes, his Plate becomes a few hundred pounds of dead weight on him.

 

It seems plausible that Shardplate was powered by the Stormlight that Surgebinders leak. They wouldn't have used gemstones in ancient times for anything but repairing it after a battle if the theory is true.

 

You are right. His lashings interfere with the Shardplate not the other way around. 

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Another thing that I think interferes with correct Shardplate/blade operation and new Spren development is that you need three things:

 

1.    A user that is following a particular Ideal.

 

2.    Shardplate that matches that Ideal (Windrunner etc.)

 

3.    Shardblade that matches that Ideal.

 

An Edgedancer with Windrunner Shardplate and Bondsmith Shardblade would have built in conflicts that would keep a new Spren from bonding.

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