Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 Just now, maxal said: Kaladin declined the possession of his Shards, hence he never was promoted. He wanted to give the Shards to Coreb, but Coreb never took possession of them, so he too was never promoted. So unless Amaram murdered a real lighteyed and I forgot about it, he murdered darkeyes which is the same to us, but not to Alethkar. I'd quibble over the first half. Those Shards were Kaladin's. Giving them to Coreb should have been allowed under the tradition of allowing your shards to be used by your best warrior as some Highprinces do. I do agree with you though that allowing Cored to use them doesn't necessarily make him a lighteyes. it would have been all politically murky territory at best.
Guest Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 Just now, Fifth of Daybreak said: I'd quibble over the first half. Those Shards were Kaladin's. Giving them to Coreb should have been allowed under the tradition of allowing your shards to be used by your best warrior as some Highprinces do. I do agree with you though that allowing Cored to use them doesn't necessarily make him a lighteyes. it would have been all politically murky territory at best. It depends on how you read the scene. Kaladin left the Shards on the ground for anyone to pick them up. He more or less gave them away. It is really a subject of interpretation, but if I were a character within the scene, I would argue Kaladin literally abandoned the Shards and then claimed it was his right to give them away. It would have been, had he bothered to pick them up, but since he didn't, it can be argued he gave up his right of ownership right here and there. Thus, all Kaladin did was kill the Shardbearer, but he never took possession the Blade nor the Plate. If you win a prize, then you leave it on the ground, not caring about it, for anyone to pick it up behind you, do you really still have the right to claim it afterwards because you initially won it? It is murky territory here. Either way, no way is he considered to be a lighteyed at this point in time.
Blacksmithki Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, maxal said: It depends on how you read the scene. Kaladin left the Shards on the ground for anyone to pick them up. He more or less gave them away. It is really a subject of interpretation, but if I were a character within the scene, I would argue Kaladin literally abandoned the Shards and then claimed it was his right to give them away. It would have been, had he bothered to pick them up, but since he didn't, it can be argued he gave up his right of ownership right here and there. Thus, all Kaladin did was kill the Shardbearer, but he never took possession the Blade nor the Plate. If you win a prize, then you leave it on the ground, not caring about it, for anyone to pick it up behind you, do you really still have the right to claim it afterwards because you initially won it? It is murky territory here. Either way, no way is he considered to be a lighteyed at this point in time. Not Kaladin, Coreb, the guy who took the shards, he would be immediately promoted as Moash was despite not having bones it yet.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, maxal said: It depends on how you read the scene. Kaladin left the Shards on the ground for anyone to pick them up. He more or less gave them away. It is really a subject of interpretation, but if I were a character within the scene, I would argue Kaladin literally abandoned the Shards and then claimed it was his right to give them away. It would have been, had he bothered to pick them up, but since he didn't, it can be argued he gave up his right of ownership right here and there. Here's how I'm looking at it: we know that the higher rank you are in society the more protections the law affords you. We see this from the Roshone/Lirin conflict. Lirin is allowed the right of inquest because of his rank, whereas lower darkeyes wouldn't be afforded those rights. As the darekeyed party receiving a gift of wealth from a lighteyed party (hypothetically speaking ) Lirin had to ensure that all of the documents were tended to, as if he didn't have explicit proof backing him up, even as a darkeyes of rank, he would have been steamrolled by the system. The Shards didn't transfer to Kaladin by legal means, it transferred to Kaladin by tradition. He didn't have to sign any papers or do anything to take possession of the Shards other than kill the Shardbearer. There's the story of the Lighteyed archer who was able to claim his shards because he fired the killing shot on the Shardbearer after a squad of darkeyed spearmen broke the breastplate (I've always been suspicious of this story a little anyway. Amaram 1.0?) but if it is a true story it just demonstrates that the tradition holds true. It's the act of defeating the Shardbearer that wins you the Shards, regardless of if you're immediately there to pick them up. So right then and there, by right of tradition which is incredibly strong in Alethkar, Kaladin becomes a Lighteyes and immediately should receive the same benefits of protections from the law, including the need to properly verify any transfer of wealth with proper documentation should he wish to give it to any darkeyes, even if only to protect the darkeyes he's trying to help from the system that is stacked against them. In the case of Moash, he has the nephew of the king to witness, and then scribes to later ratify, and even then Adolin prevents anything from being finalized until he checks with Kaladin. 25 minutes ago, maxal said: do you really still have the right to claim it afterwards because you initially won it? My opinion is yes. Tradition rules in Alethkar, from Dalinar fighting against wrapping his Takama three times to marrying Navani. Kaladin was a lighteyes as soon as the knife went through Helaran's eyeslit imo. Edited November 4, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 1
Blacksmithki Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 Also, Coreb was one the moment He took the shards when Kaladin didn't want them.
WhiteLeeopard she/her Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 Maxal, I generally agree with you, but not this time. Whoever kills a Shardbearer wins the Shards. That is a tradition/law so set in Alethkar its like saying the Almighty is God, and highstorms come. Its one of the most unalianable parts of being alethi. This is something we see in WoK, how they are discussing even a slave earning Shards get the Shards. Killing a highprince is bad, but stealing Shards from their rightful owner is likely at least at the same level. 2
Guest Posted November 5, 2017 Posted November 5, 2017 On the matters of who gets the Shards, I'll just say I am partial about it. I don't technically disagree with anyone here, but I am keeping an open-mind about it. What seems to us as a great betrayal may have seem as much less coming from Amaram's viewpoints.
Salkara Posted November 5, 2017 Posted November 5, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Blacksmithki said: Also, Coreb was one the moment He took the shards when Kaladin didn't want them. That is provided you are omniscient. Otherwise, you're weighing the word of a full shardbearer against the word of a darkeyed slave. In Alethkar, you side with Amaram in that situation because of course the slave is lying. It would be the equivalent of, in our world, being approached by a homeless person who reeks of his own feces and tells you that the guy in the suit over there stole a BILLION DOLLARS from him. Do you even think for a second that this is true? No, and not because you even care about the guy in the suit. You don't believe it because how many homeless people have ever had a billion dollars to be stolen? Even if there have been a couple, it's way, way more likely this guy is just a crazy meth addict. You should probably move along to avoid getting stabbed. That's what people think when Kaladin claims he killed a shardbearer and Amaram stole the shards. Up until he starts glowing and gets a Sylblade, of course. Edited November 5, 2017 by Salkara
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 5, 2017 Posted November 5, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, maxal said: What seems to us as a great betrayal may have seem as much less coming from Amaram's viewpoints. I agree with you here, especially in regards to how society will view it. I can imagine a lot of victim blaming parallels between here and the real world. "He should have just taken the shards if he wanted to protect his men." "Why did he wait so long to say anything." "Amaram is such a good person I just refuse to believe it." "All these darkeyes just want to accuse lighteyes of things and take their wealth, lazy layabouts." Edited November 5, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 1
Siaun Sanche she/her Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 On 11/4/2017 at 7:25 AM, WhiteLeeopard said: My problem with this whole discussion is that everyone assumes Adolin must be punished because he did something wrong. Sorry, but for me he didn't do anything wrong, he did something great. The end. Arguing for the rebuttal is one Adolin Kholin: "He gritted his teeth, and found himself reaching his hand to the side to summon his Blade. No. He pulled his hand back. He'd find a way to force this man into the dueling ring. Killing Sadeas now--no matter how much he deserved it--would undermine the very laws and codes Adolin's father was working so hard to uphold." 1
WhiteLeeopard she/her Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 11 hours ago, Harry the Heir said: Arguing for the rebuttal is one Adolin Kholin: "He gritted his teeth, and found himself reaching his hand to the side to summon his Blade. No. He pulled his hand back. He'd find a way to force this man into the dueling ring. Killing Sadeas now--no matter how much he deserved it--would undermine the very laws and codes Adolin's father was working so hard to uphold." Except it soon became obvious that was impossible to do, since Sadeas would refuse after seing the 4v1 duel no matter the incentives.
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