[OB] Does Renarin know about Adolin/Sadeas?

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

I wondered if maybe I didn't read it properly.

My fault. I had been imagining Words of Radiance incorrectly for three years. 

[Guest]

Just now, Fifth of Daybreak said:

My fault. I had been imagining Words of Radiance incorrectly for three years. 

 Not worries. I was actually exited they have found the chalk mark.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Now the big question is how far "away" is and whether this might lead toward discovery of the chalk marks.

Quote

He raised his lantern, then made a few marks in chalk on the wall to indicate he’d been here. This tower was huge. How did the entire thing stay up? They could probably explore in here for months without opening every door. He had thrown himself into the duty of exploration because it seemed like something he could do. It also, unfortunately, gave him time to think. He didn’t like how few answers he came up with. 

Heturned around, realizing he’d gotten far from the rest of his scouting party.

...

Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away. He ditched the Blade out a window, dropping it down into one of the planterlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there. 

After that, he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, remove his chalk mark on the wall by scraping it free with his own Blade, and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he’d been in that area all along.

The text gives me the impression that 'away' from Sadeas was also toward his chalk mark. If they are able to correlate the window with the floor Sadeas was killed, it might lead them to the chalk mark, but that's assuming that any of that information is passed to someone who would do something with it. 

(It's almost like we never left that thread in 2014)

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Now the big question is how far "away" is and whether this might lead toward discovery of the chalk marks.

The text gives me the impression that 'away' from Sadeas was also toward his chalk mark. If they are able to correlate the window with the floor Sadeas was killed, it might lead them to the chalk mark, but that's assuming that any of that information is passed to someone who would do something with it. 

(It's almost like we never left that thread in 2014)

My problem is why haven't they find out about it? Didn't they search the entire room? Didn't they look for clues, for anything? So how come they missed it? My guess is they missed it because it isn't really visible. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

@maxal one of these Tuesdays ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we're almost there.

[Chicken Feather]

Yes, Renarin knows something he is not telling in the scene where the find the first copycat murder.  But I think it is not that Adolin kilked Sadeas, but the unmade he senses.  We know from later on he could sense it.

 

[vividox]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

While Renarin was looking at Adolin, was he seeing him? What I meant with my real-life autism example is Renarin might have been focusing on the conversation and not really seeing Adolin. In short, he might have been staring into the empty. Also, Adolin was kind of publicly freaking out during this scene and yet nobody noticed, except for Shallan. In the past, every single times Adolin had public emotional outburst, Renarin was the first to try to talk him out of it. Hence, how come, if Renarin was really, really seeing Adolin, didn't he take action? It is one of the reasons I don't believe Renarin knows anything, nothing concrete.

I am not sure about the consequences. It is just not where the story seems to be heading.

We are talking about a straight-forward, single line here, and your interpretation is really starting to reach. 

It doesn't make sense for Adolin to get away with Sadaes' murder. This is a huge book/series where consequences don't necessarily happen right away. And just because he hasn't been immediately accused does not mean that Ialai isn't building a rock-solid case. In fact, it makes sense for Ialai to take her time to get her facts straight and to wait for the perfect opportunity to hurt the Kholins the most. Accusing Adolin right now would be justice, but accusing Adolin right after Dalinar is declared Highking and Adolin is declared Highprince is positively vengeful. I've said this to you in other threads: we are still in Part One of Five. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by vividox

[vividox]

1 hour ago, Chicken Feather said:

Yes, Renarin knows something he is not telling in the scene where the find the first copycat murder.  But I think it is not that Adolin kilked Sadeas, but the unmade he senses.  We know from later on he could sense it.

That's a possibility, but then why is he staring at Adolin and not the corpse? 

[Stark he/him]

I think it is going to come back to the hypocrisy discussion with Amaram.  If Adolin is revealed, how can Dalinar insist on trying Amaram for murder and theft of his soldiers if he does not bring Adolin to trial for the murder of a Highprince?  

 

As for Renarin knowing, we saw him seeing the future in WoR - he knew the Everstorm was coming, but he may not have known how.  I think that Renarin sees major points of contention coming up.  He sees the everstorm arrive, but not how, not if it can be stopped, and not what the fallout will be.

 

So for Sadeas, I think he sees that Adolin is involved, somehow.  But not how.  He sees the conflict coming, and hee sees the trial maybe, but not how Adolin got there, and not that Adolin specifically killed him.  That, and assuming that Glys, like Pattern, can hear lies, or obscured truths/omissions, I think Renarin has a very good suspicion, but no prrof.

[StormingTexan he/him]

8 hours ago, vividox said:

It doesn't make sense for Adolin to get away with Sadaes' murder. This is a huge book/series where consequences don't necessarily happen right away. And just because he hasn't been immediately accused does not mean that Ialai isn't building a rock-solid case. In fact, it makes sense for Ialai to take her time to get her facts straight and to wait for the perfect opportunity to hurt the Kholins the most. Accusing Adolin right now would be justice, but accusing Adolin right after Dalinar is declared Highking and Adolin is declared Highprince is positively vengeful. I've said this to you in other threads: we are still in Part One of Five. 

Could not agree more with all of this. As cunning as Ialai is she is going to use this to her advantage in every possible way. 

 

Edit: Since I am wrong 99% anyways I'm going to go ahead and call it that it will come out in the final chapters next week.

Edited November 3, 2017 by StormingTexan

[Guest]

 

9 hours ago, vividox said:

We are talking about a straight-forward, single line here, and your interpretation is really starting to reach. 

It doesn't make sense for Adolin to get away with Sadaes' murder. This is a huge book/series where consequences don't necessarily happen right away. And just because he hasn't been immediately accused does not mean that Ialai isn't building a rock-solid case. In fact, it makes sense for Ialai to take her time to get her facts straight and to wait for the perfect opportunity to hurt the Kholins the most. Accusing Adolin right now would be justice, but accusing Adolin right after Dalinar is declared Highking and Adolin is declared Highprince is positively vengeful. I've said this to you in other threads: we are still in Part One of Five. 

Ever heard of the expression "being in the moon"? Just because someone is starring straight at something does not mean he is seeing it. People often stare into the empty, aren't really paying attention. Renarin appears lost within his thoughts: he might have been looking at Adolin, but likely he was musing on something else. There is absolutely no proof Renarin has seen anything within this scene. The entire proof relies on Shallan's thoughts and on Renarin looking at Adolin: it really isn't a strong argument.

Perhaps it does not make a lot of sense, but we have to keep in mind Adolin is a foil and a background character. So far, every single one of his story arcs has served other characters more than himself. The 4 on 1 duel. which happened after his friends betrayed him, was not meant for his character, but for Kaladin. As such, it appears murdering Sadeas was meant to set Shallan onto the trail of Re-Shephir. There isn't much evidence Adolin will ever become more than the "faithful side-kick" character and, as such the "consequences" for murdering Sadeas may not amount to much nor be meant for Adolin's character. In all likelihood, the consequences will be lived by another character, not Adolin. 

9 hours ago, Stark said:

So for Sadeas, I think he sees that Adolin is involved, somehow.  But not how.  He sees the conflict coming, and hee sees the trial maybe, but not how Adolin got there, and not that Adolin specifically killed him.  That, and assuming that Glys, like Pattern, can hear lies, or obscured truths/omissions, I think Renarin has a very good suspicion, but no prrof.

This is the best explanation. Renarin may see something bad happening, but he certainly cannot know about Adolin murdering Sadeas. It does not make sense for his character to know and not to talk to Adolin about it.  

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

20 minutes ago, maxal said:

The entire proof relies on Shallan's thoughts and on Renarin looking at Adolin: it really isn't a strong argument.

It is in the context of good storytelling. Are you familiar with the concept of Chekhov's gun? It stems from a book of his writing advice. 'If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don’t put it there."

Edited November 3, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

It is in the context of good storytelling. Are you familiar with the concept of Chekhov's gun? It stems from a book of his writing advice. 'If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don’t put it there."

It may not be a Checkhov gun: readers may have completely misunderstood the purpose of the scene. No Adolin related climaxes ever panned out into consequences for his character or, if they did, they were mild and meaningless. I lost the number of times I expected reading a reaction from Adolin and it never happened, hence just because we got into the book thinking something big would happen with the murder does not mean it will happen. This is besides the point, something did happen, just not what we thought would.

Brandon never said there would be consequences. He said there would be ramifications, but he never said they would relate to Adolin's character. He's the side-kick, the background character, we have to keep this in mind. His role into the story is not to have a character arc, it is to ask questions, to steer the action and to provide occasions for the main protagonists to become more fleshed out. We see it within the Adolin/Shallan relationship where it is solely broached from the Shallan's angle: she's the one with the issues, she's the one it is relevant to. Adolin may have been presented as having relationship issues, but they absolutely aren't featured within the story. It was just meant to give the character a quirk, to make him more sympathetic, but none of it is meant for his development.

It is why I am thinking we, the reader, totally and completely misunderstood the murder act: we thought it was a gun waiting to be fired aiming at Adolin. It is a gun, but it is not Adolin it is aiming at. It won't be about him.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I lost the number of times I expected reading a reaction from Adolin and it never happened

I might just be hyping myself up for another let down then. Just for storms and sprinkles, I'd like to lay out my reasoning for why I'd expect a major Adolin moment in our last set of preview chapters. 

Through Way of Kings we see him confident and cocksure in his ways, believing Dalinar to be weak. He starts to understand some of Dalinar's actions, but is ultimately reinforced in his ways by Sadeas's betrayal, as he was right. 

In Words of Radiance, his usefulness and skill is Paramount to their success, and he finally has a woman who not only keeps him interested but seems to want to stay interested in him. His success in the arena and newfound kinship with Kaladin are reinforced by the bridgemen adopting Renarin so readily and warmly. The world is stark, the Assassin in white bested them once, but he's training to overcome it and there's been no obstacle yet that he hasn't been able to overcome somehow. 

Then comes the assassination attempt. He let his causal betrothed fall to her death. This causes a huge reaction. This is the first time he's on screen (as far as a quick search shows) after:

Quote

Shallan sat in thought, finishing her wine, until the door to the sitting room burst open, letting in Adolin. He stopped, wild-eyed, regarding her. Shallan stood up, smiling. “It appears that I have failed at properly—”She cut off as he grabbed her in an embrace. 

It's one of the first times he's truly felt powerless. Fast forward to the shattered plains. He's effective against the Parshendi, but he loses Sureblood, and then is rendered powerless against the assassin in white again, despite being in plate and his extra training. 

 

Now he finds out his new best friend, his girlfriend, his brother, and his father all have the same powers that made him, the most accomplished warrior alive, impotent. 

 

In the strain if everything that happened, he snaps when no one is there to hold him back against his long time enemy. He might not be much use against the new threats, but he can do something here to this cremling. 

 

But Dalinar then places him in charge of the investigation. He's now become impotent once again. He cannot complete his task without hurting his house, or fail to complete it without doing the same. He's frozen, completely unable to act in any meaningful way. It's not something he's ever experienced before. 

 

Fast forward again to chapter 29, at the very least he should be able to find this copycat killer, but Shallan has already taken the lead, and has found the cause, something he doesn't understand. He makes his assault confidently, he even with the help of another shardbearer and a compliment of spearmen is overwhelmed insanely quickly. Meanwhile Renarin is healing the hurt bridgemen, keeping midknight essence off his back, and Shallan is sending the thing running just by touching it. 

 

I just don't think we've ever seen Adolin fail until the end of Words of Radiance, and since that time iirc we haven't been back to his perspective. I feel like there's a reason for that, but I might just be setting myself up for a fall. It just seems like Adolin is in the perfect position for a crisis of character as of right now.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Guest]

This is a great post @Fifth of Daybreak and I sincerely hope you are right. I absolutely do no want to be right, I just do not want to hype me up to a disappointment. Poor Adolin has been a foil to Dalinar within WoK, a foil to Kaladin within WoR and so far in OB, he is a foil to Shallan. It is hard to conceive the story might eventually unfold into one where he is more relevant to it.

1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

But Dalinar then places him in charge of the investigation. He's now become impotent once again. He cannot complete his task without hurting his house, or fail to complete it without doing the same. He's frozen, completely unable to act in any meaningful way. It's not something he's ever experienced before. 

My problem with this is not I disagree, I agree with you, but I felt the story has not allowed us to truly get a firmed grip of Adolin's feelings on the matter. It is thus hard to conceive Brandon has purposefully put Adolin into the background just to put him onto the spot later on. One viewpoint where Adolin addresses those issues would have done wonders, but the fact there is none it just gives me a bad foreshadowing for how his character will evolve.

2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I just don't think we've ever seen Adolin fail until the end of Words of Radiance, and since that time iirc we haven't been back to his perspective. I feel like there's a reason for that, but I might just be setting myself up for a fall. It just seems like Adolin is in the perfect position for a crisis of character as of right now.

See this is my issue, why haven't we gotten back to Adolin's perspective? It needed not to be long, but one or two short perspectives would have kept the tab on the character, so why was it skipped if it isn't for the fact Adolin is just not an important character within the story. Stuff happens to him, but it usually falls under the radar and it made me think we aren't going to read many consequences for him.

I too felt Adolin was ripe for a character crisis, but rooting for Adolin hasn't have a strong payoff so far. I am just not convinced Brandon will use Adolin's character for something else than a foil.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

My problem with this whole discussion is that everyone assumes Adolin must be punished because he did something wrong. Sorry, but for me he didn't do anything wrong, he did something great. The end.

[Starla]

@WhiteLeeopard If only we could be the judges in Adolin's trial, he'd get off with a party instead of a punishment. Unfortunately, in the context of the story, I doubt anyone can get away with killing an Alethi highprince without punishment. Note this thought by Adolin in WOR chapter 50:

Quote

A small part of him wished for Sadeas to provoke him, push away his inhibitions, drive him to do something stupid. Killing the man right here, right now, would likely earn Adolin an execution— or at least an exile. It might be worth either punishment.

If Adolin is found guilty, will he be subjected to one of these punishments? Dalinar has said that a shardbearer can't be imprisoned, so I can't see any other punishment aside from exile or execution. I wonder if it will make a difference if Adolin is officially announced as highprince. Maybe he's "exiled" back to his home princedom/Kholinar. Or would he be stripped of his rank and Dalinar goes back to being highprince?

Another option is for the trial and/or punishment to be deferred until after the desolation, like Amaram's, but I doubt Ialai will allow this. Or, another person could be accused of the murder, but I suspect Adolin will step up and confess. I can't see him letting an innocent person pay for his crime. The only way I can see Adolin getting off free is if no one is ever accused, and I don't see Ialai or Team Sadeas being content with that. I'm having a hard time seeing a good way out of this for Adolin. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

My problem with this whole discussion is that everyone assumes Adolin must be punished because he did something wrong. Sorry, but for me he didn't do anything wrong, he did something great. The end.

It depends within which frame you evaluate the murder. Of course, many of us do consider what he did was both needed and ultimately good, but what will Dalinar, Amaram, Navani and Ialai think of it? Dalinar already expressed sadness at seeing Sadeas dead, not because he was dead, a part of him is glad he finally got to pay for his crimes, but he had wish, up until the last moment, to have Sadeas fight with him, once again. He valued his military expertise more than he valued the need for consequences. When he finds out about Adolin, if he finds out about Adolin, it will be a massive shock to him, one where he won't know the answer. It will be a shock because nobody can conceive Adolin doing anything else but perfection and it will be one because internally he won't know how to behave. Part of him will be ragging mad over Adolin undermining the unity he worked so hard to achieve, but part of him will argue they need Adolin's military expertise too. If the murderer was another man, then I would say Dalinar would pass the sponge and agree to trial him later though, in reality the severity of the offense may not even allow it. 

Adolin murdered a Highprince. If it comes out, then it will be a big mess. If. He won't get readily excused, but the story may be written in a way where those consequences happen more to Dalinar then to Adolin. For example, Adolin is punished, but he owns his punishment. We never read him having any reaction whatsoever towards the punishment. He just goes on with it. He has no viewpoints, so we never know how he feels about it. Nobody cares to ask how he feels about it. It is never broached. Adolin has a consequence, but it doesn't pan out into a story arc for him, he just keeps on doing what is asked of him, he suffers the demotion and whatever, he just ignores it happens and he keeps on doing his work. In the mean time, Dalinar has a lot of internal issues over it. The affair is broached solely from his viewpoints. What it does to him, what consequences it bears to him, so while Adolin technically has a "consequence", it does not affect his character. 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I've been on the shard all morning, so not sure if I read this idea on this thread or elsewhere. Someone said Dalinar would be a hypocrite to let Adolin go while trying to condemn Amaram. Except...Dalinar isn't trying to condemn Amaram, he is letting him go free. So, applying the same argument, wouldn't Dalinar be a hypocrite to let Amaram go free while condemning his son? 

It may be that Adolin can tie his fate to Amaram, saying he won't accept punishment so long as Amaram walks free for his crimes. Which have a similar magnitude if not worse. Kill a highprince vs. steal a shardblade and shardplate in Alethkar, where thats considered a crime beyond the pale. I could see that happening, and Adolin would likely love that outcome, as that would either leave him free or remove him, but also get rid of a walking piece of chull dung as bad as Sadeas ever was, if not worse.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I've been on the shard all morning, so not sure if I read this idea on this thread or elsewhere. Someone said Dalinar would be a hypocrite to let Adolin go while trying to condemn Amaram. Except...Dalinar isn't trying to condemn Amaram, he is letting him go free. So, applying the same argument, wouldn't Dalinar be a hypocrite to let Amaram go free while condemning his son? 

It may be that Adolin can tie his fate to Amaram, saying he won't accept punishment so long as Amaram walks free for his crimes. Which have a similar magnitude if not worse. Kill a highprince vs. steal a shardblade and shardplate in Alethkar, where thats considered a crime beyond the pale. I could see that happening, and Adolin would likely love that outcome, as that would either leave him free or remove him, but also get rid of a walking piece of chull dung as bad as Sadeas ever was, if not worse.

Amaram is guilty of murdering a bunch of darkeyed soldiers to gain access for Shards he thought the man who won them, Kaladin, if he weren't to carry them himself, he ought to have given them to his Brightlord. Dalinar had been advocating for years Shards needed to go to the best soldiers, not the lucky finder. A great deal lot of people will not see Amaram's actions as needing punishment and most people in charge will be willing to pass the brush over it.

Adolin murdered a Highprince. A Highprince. Very few people, even among Dalinar's allies, will be willing to pass the brush over such a crime. As such, Dalinar may not have much choice not to forget we are speaking of Adolin, the son he never allowed the chance to make mistakes.

This being, him dueling Amaram over it would be interesting. My personal theories are Adolin needs to lose a fight, so if it happens, it probably won't end well for him.

[Blacksmithki]

59 minutes ago, maxal said:

Amaram is guilty of murdering a bunch of darkeyed soldiers to gain access for Shards he thought the man who won them, Kaladin, if he weren't to carry them himself, he ought to have given them to his Brightlord. Dalinar had been advocating for years Shards needed to go to the best soldiers, not the lucky finder. A great deal lot of people will not see Amaram's actions as needing punishment and most people in charge will be willing to pass the brush over it.

Adolin murdered a Highprince. A Highprince. Very few people, even among Dalinar's allies, will be willing to pass the brush over such a crime. As such, Dalinar may not have much choice not to forget we are speaking of Adolin, the son he never allowed the chance to make mistakes.

This being, him dueling Amaram over it would be interesting. My personal theories are Adolin needs to lose a fight, so if it happens, it probably won't end well for him.

I will say, Amaran did murder a lighteyes of (third?) highest rank in cold blood for shards, a massive crime, then attempted to steal more from Dalinar (WoR) so... 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

I will say, Amaran did murder a lighteyes of (third?) highest rank in cold blood for shards, a massive crime, then attempted to steal more from Dalinar (WoR) so... 

Did he? I don't remember him murdering a lighteyed of high rank... My point was, while within our world, murder is murder within Alethkar whom you murder will greatly sway the popular opinion.

[Blacksmithki]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

Did he? I don't remember him murdering a lighteyed of high rank... My point was, while within our world, murder is murder within Alethkar whom you murder will greatly sway the popular opinion.

Anyone in possession of ashardblade is immediately promoted remember?

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

1 minute ago, Blacksmithki said:

Anyone in possession of ashardblade is immediately promoted remember?

He didn't kill Kaladin though, only stole his Shards and illegally made him a slave.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Blacksmithki said:

Anyone in possession of ashardblade is immediately promoted remember?

Kaladin declined the possession of his Shards, hence he never was promoted. He wanted to give the Shards to Coreb, but Coreb never took possession of them, so he too was never promoted. So unless Amaram murdered a real lighteyed and I forgot about it, he murdered darkeyes which is the same to us, but not to Alethkar.