Cultivation invests through Light

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

@Calderis my Stones, Stone Shamanism, and Death Rites thread has just about every quote from Szeth and the shin about stones I could get my hands on if that helps speed up your research time.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Calderis he/him]

I suppose Vstim sums up my confusion rather well. 

Quote

I’ve tried to offer them fabrials, but they find them worthless. Or unholy. Or too holy to use.”

“Those are rather different things, master.”

“Yes,” he said. “But with the Shin, it’s often hard to distinguish among them. 

 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I suppose Vstim sums up my confusion rather well. 

 

This got a big laugh out of me. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

18 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

While this is a fair criticism of my view, it is not an argument against my point that the Shin are more aware of Cosmere magic than the rest of the planet, as they still have ancient magical artifacts that the rest of the planet doesn't know about.

This also is not an argument against my point but a reinforcement of it. By using powers that no one else knows about long enough to become familiar with them, they are then familiar with powers no one knows about, making them more magically aware than others on the planet.

---

1) There's also more than enough tangential evidence to at least support the idea that they have the Blades in an official capacity.

2) This is not a rebuttal of my point at all, unless you're trying to imply that his use of the terms 'lashings' and 'regrowth' are wrong as well. Their use by Khriss in the Ars Arcanum and by Wyndle disproves that notion, and lends credence to the idea that the Shin were trained in some official capacity and were entrusted the Blades.

3) Having technically correct knowledge without interacting with Heralds or spren involved is highly unlikely otherwise.

Magically aware is not the same thing as realmatically aware. So yes, realmatically was the wrong word to use in the earlier post.

---

1) The Heralds didn't stick around to give them the Honorblades in any capacity, so who's got the official capacity? The KR would keep them in Urithiru, I doubt any normal King would suggest somewhere that wasn't KR HQ or their own vaults for safekeeping, and the Aimians are a wildcard that might not have the authority to do so.

2) The KR were still around for about two millennia after the Heralds went AWOL. Even disregarding the potential for Shin KR over the centuries, I'm pretty sure they could pick up on a few terms here and there. Have a couple people go to train as squires and write home about the experience, or have some people help out with cataloging that big library in the basement. I'm sure there were some people like (Skar?) who wanted to test out Radiant powers and define what they could do. An inquisitive Shin on the team jotting it all down could pick up quite a few things.

3) See 2. Heck, it might be that the KR were more open with teaching and powers over those two millennia free of Desolations. The Shin could remember by virtue of being the only place to not burn anything associated with the KR after the Recreance/Hierocracy. This could also be why Szeth knows where Urithiru is.

19 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

It's highly implausible that Szeth just happened to stumble upon a city his people consider holy flying above the clouds on limited Stormlight while flying around the world assassinating leaders for King T.

You forget that Urithiru is nearly in the dead center of Roshar. Limited Stormlight teaches a man about "the shortest distance between two points," and a central location is actually pretty likely to get crossed when going from one end to the other.

Regicide should be in the capitol cities, yes?

• A straight line from Azimir(Azir) to Vedenar(Jah Keved) is pretty close to Urithiru. It'd directly cross The Valley.
• Kharbranth to Panatham(Babatharnam) is quite close, and a straight line from Kharbranth to Elia(Iri) is almost dead on.
• Azimir or Yeddaw(Tashikk) to Kholinar(Alethkar) is very close.
• Thaylen City to Kasitor(Iri) is also spot on. Don't think he went to Thaylenah, but it's a point in favor of the odds anyway.
• Sesemelex Dar(Emul?) to Mourn's Vault near Herdaz is also spot on. Don't know if he went to either, but they're big enough to be labeled on the map.
• Kurth(Riri) to Eastern Marat would be dead on. We don't know where the capitol of Marat is or if he went there, but it's worth mentioning.
• A dead on path from Rall Elorim(Iri) to Urithiru would continue directly across the middle of Greater Hexi, so that's good odds of hitting a capitol city.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

1-3 I don't feel like is very relevant to replying for my points. Regardless of how they know, they are still more aware of Cosmere magic than the rest of the planet. I'd be more than happy to participate in a discussion on another thread, but I'm unwilling to derail this one for what amounts to splitting hairs over technicalities in theorizing.

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Limited Stormlight teaches a man about "the shortest distance between two points," and a central location is actually pretty likely to get crossed when going from one end to the other.

Urithuru is still above the clouds, in a pretty big mountain. That's inconvenient by any standard, and dangerous for someone in limited Stormlight. 

While I can appreciate the theory behind what you're saying, there's just one question I have to ensure that it is a sound principle behind that theory: do we know what kind of projection Brandon has based the map of Roshar off of or if it even is actually a projection of a globe? That makes a huge difference in the shortest flight path between two points on a map, and I've never heard it discussed whether or not that's something he considered.

Honestly though I'd be more interested (or just as) to hear your thoughts about my reasoning behind cultivation and Dalinar's vision.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[The One Who Connects he/him]

48 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

1-3 I don't feel like is very relevant to replying for my points. Regardless of how they know, they are still more aware of Cosmere magic than the rest of the planet.

I wasn't arguing whether or not they know. 1-3 were replying to the specific points that were numbered 1-3.

You said there was tangential evidence that they had Honorblades in an "official capacity." I argued that specifically, because I don't see it.
You implied that their knowledge of terms like Lashing and Regrowth were evidence of them being trained and entrusted the Blades. I provided other ways they could have come by that information. 3 was mostly the same. You said the only likely ways to get that knowledge was heralds or Spren, and I provided other possibilities.

48 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Urithiru is still above the clouds, in a pretty big mountain. That's inconvenient by any standard, and dangerous for someone in limited Stormlight. 

Probably more inconvenient to fly way off to the side of a wide mountain than to fly over the top of it. And if you're going in a straight path, you can adjust to lash yourself upwards pretty early on(it's a big mountain, so you should see it from aways back). You could also just land on the mountain if you're short on stormlight, and he could use the next highstorm to power himself and his spheres. IIRC, he also knew about that little village down the mountain that left him spheres now and then. If he landed on the mountain near there, that could be why he discovered it.

Maybe I'm just not getting the sense of mountainous scale from the map image.

48 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Do we know what kind of projection Brandon has based the map of Roshar off of or if it even is actually a projection of a globe? That makes a huge difference in the shortest flight path between two points on a map, and I've never heard it discussed whether or not that's something he considered.

Well, we know that Otto placed his orthographic map nearly perfectly along the latitude/longitude lines, so we have that to go off of. Speaking of which, I presume that the shortest path between two points on the same line of latitude would not be to follow that latitude line, yes? It'd be to circumvent that distance by going further south and curving up(Since everything but the Reshi Isles are in the Southern Hemisphere) Oh boy. I'm not sure I know the math to calculate paths like that. Edit: haversine formula.. yep, definitely new stuff for me

Edited November 6, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

28 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I wasn't arguing whether or not they know. 1-3 were replying to the specific points that were numbered 1-3.

I understand, as I said, the split hairs aren't going to have any bearing on the original point I'm making, and I don't want to unnecessarily bog down the discussion into a nitty gritty discussion of specifics that in the end don't have any specific relevance to the point I originally made as that was also a derailment off of a specific quibble from another post that got lost because we're so focused on this one tiny thing. Suffice it to say I'm working hard to disabuse myself of knowledge or theories that are inconsistent with what is possible, but it's hard to make up three years of lost time on the forum, and I don't want every thread I make to turn into a thousand different justifcations that are each in turn examined individually without ever returning to my main points. That can get very frustrating very quickly without showing much in the way of forward progress.

 

28 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Probably more inconvenient to fly way off to the side of a wide mountain than to fly over the top of it.

By strict convenience standards, it's probably easiest to plan your route to avoid having to make repeated flights over the big mountain and move kingdom by kingdom. We only see Szeth go to Urithuru after his worldview is traumatically shaken by his interaction with Kaladin. I just don't see a reason he'd be flying over the mountains often enough to find it that isn't more plausibly explained by the Shin knowing about where the city with the only uncursed stones in the east is.

28 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Oh boy. I'm not sure I know the math to calculate paths like that

As I understand it, the basic rules of thumb is that the shorter paths skew toward the poles,  With Urithuru nearing the equator, I don't think it's in the shortest flight paths in most instances. 

 

http://gisgeography.com/great-circle-geodesic-line-shortest-flight-path/

Edited November 6, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[The One Who Connects he/him]

9 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

post that got lost because we're so focused on this one tiny thing. Suffice it to say it's hard to make up three years of lost time on the forum,

A lot of us talk about individual things separately if we can, so that it's clearer what we are specifically responding to. It's given some of us a bit of a bad habit in tunnel vision-ing things here and there. Sorry about that. As for lost time, I had to catch up on two years back in 2016. It's a little rough at first, but once you've gotten started, you can get back into the swing of things without too much trouble.

14 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

By strict convenience standards, it's probably easiest to plan your route to avoid having to make repeated flights over the big mountain.
I just don't see a reason he'd be flying over the mountains often enough to find it that isn't more plausibly explained by the Shin knowing about where the city with the only uncursed stones in the east is.

Fair enough. But when do book/movie characters ever plan out a route before-hand?
As for the "often enough" bit, he only needs to have flown over the mountain once to find Urithiru. Deciding to check out the mountain that surpasses the clouds on your way past seems reasonable enough for a person who has the power to fly. Do it during/before a Highstorm so he can recharge his spheres afterwords, and his employer will be none the wiser. (Not that I think Taravangian cared as long as Szeth got the job done)
I did mention earlier that the Shin having knowledge that they didn't destroy after the Recreance could explain how he found Urithiru, but as long as another option was still possible, we explore it.

33 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

With Urithuru nearing the equator, I don't think it's in the shortest flight paths in most instances.

http://gisgeography.com/great-circle-geodesic-line-shortest-flight-path/

On an entertaining note, I had a different page open for the same purpose: https://www.kavas.com/blog/great-circle-and-rhumbline

As for Urithiru "nearing" the equator, it's still lower down than many of the cities on Roshar. Without actually calculating, I could see him going near it on an great circle path from Panatham(Babatharnam) to Elanar(Jah Keved).

Additionally, a trek northwest would have a great circle path that goes horizontally for a bit and then goes up(My link has an interactive one, check out the circle for Falkland Islands to Lesotho). A trek like that from Vedenar to say.. Rall Elorim could pass near Urithiru.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

13 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

A lot of us talk about individual things separately if we can, so that it's clearer what we are specifically responding to. It's given some of us a bit of a bad habit in tunnel vision-ing things here and there. Sorry about that.

No worries! I don't want you to think I haven't heard and internalized your points, but I don't want the thesis to get lost for love of the minutiae (and I do love me some minutiae.)

 

14 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Fair enough. But when do book/movie characters ever plan out a route before-hand?

I agree with the sentiment, but I'm hesitant to apply it here because of King T's involvement. A specific course and timeline for the assassinations seems like it could be something that the diagram would have plotted out beforehand to sow the most chaos.

18 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

As for Urithiru "nearing" the equator, it's still lower down than many of the cities on Roshar. Without actually calculating, I could see him going near it on an great circle path from Panatham(Babatharnam) to Elanar(Jah Keved).

More than happy to agree to disagree here, but it seems like a lot of things have to line up just right in order for Szeth to have discovered it this way. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

More than happy to agree to disagree here, but it seems like a lot of things have to line up just right in order for Szeth to have discovered it this way. 

A lot of things have to line up in order for all manner of things to occur in both fiction and reality. Guess my "suspension of disbelief" tolerance is just a bit higher than yours. It's only gotta happen once, so agree to disagree.

12 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

King T's involvement. A specific course and timeline for the assassinations seems like it could be something that the diagram would have plotted out beforehand to sow the most chaos.

This is true, but the instructions that Taravangian left for Szeth in WoK I-6 included a lot of targets on it. Quoth Szeth: "...blood, was a sheet of paper. He took it, and his Stormlight illuminated some two dozen names written in the warrior's script of his homeland. Some had a note beside them with instructions on how they were to be killed." I'm not sure Taravangian precisely time-tabled 25 to 30 assassinations.

Given that the instructions for his own name included that he was to be killed last, I can see him arranging the names in a particular order, but the text says "how they were to be killed." It'd be very easy for Brandon to change the text to say "on how and when they were to be killed," yet he didn't. So I don't think Taravangian jotted down more specificity than an overall deadline.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Given that the instructions for his own name included that he was to be killed last, I can see him arranging the names in a particular order, but the text says "how they were to be killed."

This is more what I was getting at then "kill so and so on this date." My fault for not communicating that more clearly.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

11 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

This is more what I was getting at then "kill so and so on this date." My fault for not communicating that more clearly.

It's fine. As reasonable as it would be, I don't feel like his path of terror was a circle around the continent . Guess we'll have to ask Brandon about that at some point.