Cultivation invests through Light

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

To preface, part of this theory is predicted on another on of my theories that stone can hold investiture. You can see more information here, but it is on the Oathbringer spoiler board so be properly forewarned before following the link, Oathbringer spoilers inside.

So I think, assuming that isn't incorrect, that Cultivation is similar to Autonomy in that her investiture is tied to sunlight. First off, it just makes sense thematically. Cultivation is usually tied to farming and the growth of plants, and photosynthesis and sunlight is central to this process. 

 

Going into actual evidence though, I've got a few things I want to present. The first is the most obvious. I'm fairly sure it's a general consensus that Dalinar's vision at the end of WoR is from Cultivation. The beginning is in darkness, the end of the description is heavily based in sensations of warmth and light.

Quote

"Dalinar stood in darkness.

...

He stepped to the balcony doors and pushed them open. Warm light bathed him. A deep, enveloping , piercing warmth. A warmth that soaked down deep through his skin, into his very self. He stared at that light, and was not blinded. The source was distant, but he knew it. Knew it well. He smiled."

WoR Chapter 89 The Four

 

Next, and I went into this a little bit with my other thread, we have Tien and his rocks, and how they always cheer up Kaladin. It think that Tien had a naturally close connection to Cultivation and was able to somehow find rocks that we're able to store her investiture in it. I won't provide the examples of the rocks cheering Kaladin up, but instead, the specific quote where Tien mentions the light changing the rocks color and illuminating strata.

Quote

“Mother, look at this,” Tien said. Late-afternoon sunlight streamed through the leeside window, bathing the table. “From this side, the rock sparkles red, but from the other side, it’s green.” “Perhaps it’s magical,” Hesina said. Chunk after chunk of longroot plunked into the water, each splash with a slightly different note. “I think it must be,” Tien said. “Or it has a spren. Do spren live in rocks?” “Spren live in everything,” Hesina replied.

...

“See,” Tien said from behind, “from this side it’s green. I don’t think it’s a spren, Mother. It’s the light. It makes the rock change. …”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 539). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I think it's very like Brandon to hide the truth in both a flippant comment and the mouth of a babe. 

 

Finally, and I think this the strongest evidence, we come to Szeth at Urithuru. In Dalinar's vision in WoK, the radiant mentions that fighting hurts the soul, or at least that's the assumption I draw from the passage.

Quote

"Fighting, even this fighting against the Ten Deaths, changes a person. We can teach you so that it will not destroy you. Come to us.”

Way of Kings Chapter 19 Starfalls

This brings me to Szeth, where we see a clear demonstration of the damage over the course of the books. This brings us to Urithuru. 

 

Quote

The souls of the people he had murdered lurked in the shadows.

They whispered to him. If he drew close, they screamed. They also screamed when he shut his eyes. He had taken to blinking as little as possible. His eyes felt dry in his skull. It was what any . . . sane man would do.

...

Bright sunlight shone down to banish the shadows, which kept those screams to a minimum.

Now while it is only one line, I think it is a fair conjecture to assume that the reason the damage recedes in the sunlight is because if cultivations influence in the context of other clues. 

 

Any thoughts?

[Walin he/him]

That’s a really good theory, especially since Stormlight makes plants grow better too--Cultivation helps with Honor’s spren, and also with its Investiture.

I can’t really elaborate on that though, so if you were hoping for discussion, I’m afraid I won’t contribute to it.

[Julio]

Your theory is pretty good, with one problem.... we already assumed that Cultivation invested through light. The primary source of investiture on Roshar is Stormlight, and a magic system (surgebinding) which is partially of Cultivation is powered by Stormlight. 

And Tien's stones: Yes, independent of whether other stones in general are capable of holding investiture, By default, all the types of stones that would reflect light normally in our world will be faceted stones of a similar type to gemstones, and therefore most likely capable of holding a slight amount of investiture. 
 

As for stones holding investiture.... I'm not going to look at your theory, as I'm abstaining from the Oathbringer pre-released chapters. However, stones share, to some extent, the same geological makeup as gemstones, and therefore would likely be able to hold some small measure of investiture. However, I'd imagine it's generally too little to do any good. 

[CaptainRyan he/him]

4 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

So I think, assuming that isn't incorrect, that Cultivation is similar to Autonomy in that her investiture is tied to sunlight.

Spoiler for White Sands as we are not in that subforum:

Spoiler

On Taldain, Autonomy's investiture is absorbed by microbes in the sand (iirc) and that is what Sand Masters tap into. On Roshar, what would be the corresponding usage for Cultivation's investiture being tied to sunlight? Can surgebinders who are tied to Cultivation absorb investiture from sunlight and use that for their surges? Is the investiture absorbed, somehow, directly by the plants? Then why would the Parshendi need gemstones to grow food if direct sunlight is already providing investiture laced light?

It is one thing to have a theory that Cultivation's investiture is tied to sunlight but I would then ask the basic follow up of: So what, as in, so what does that mean? Your Autonomy comparison is a bit weak (only in my opinion of course) because the investiture being tied to sunlight is only one part of what makes magic work on Taldain. What corresponding mechanisms for investiture usage do we see on Roshar?

 

 

 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

1 hour ago, CaptainRyan said:

Spoiler for White Sands as we are not in that subforum:

  Hide contents

On Taldain, Autonomy's investiture is absorbed by microbes in the sand (iirc) and that is what Sand Masters tap into. On Roshar, what would be the corresponding usage for Cultivation's investiture being tied to sunlight? Can surgebinders who are tied to Cultivation absorb investiture from sunlight and use that for their surges? Is the investiture absorbed, somehow, directly by the plants? Then why would the Parshendi need gemstones to grow food if direct sunlight is already providing investiture laced light?

It is one thing to have a theory that Cultivation's investiture is tied to sunlight but I would then ask the basic follow up of: So what, as in, so what does that mean? Your Autonomy comparison is a bit weak (only in my opinion of course) because the investiture being tied to sunlight is only one part of what makes magic work on Taldain. What corresponding mechanisms for investiture usage do we see on Roshar?

 

 

 

From the evidence I've collected, cultivation's investiture from the light would be to lessen pain or heal damage done to the soul. In Tien's case, the investiture acts as an anti-depressant for Kaladin. For Szeth, it heals damage that has been done by his fighting. For Dalinar it is much the same, which is why it reminds him of a time before he was the blackthorn.

 

"Why would the Parshendi need Gemstones...?"

They 'need' it because it makes the process faster. They can grow food without it the same way humans do, it's just too slow for their needs. I think you're misremembering what is stated in the book and attributing the Stormlight to a necessary part of the growth instead of as a fertilizer effect. This was easily answered by just reading the relevant passage.

Quote

"They were hauling rockbuds harvested on one of the nearby plateaus, plants which had been encouraged to grow quickly by use of Stormlight-infused gems."

"What corresponding mechanisms of magic do we see on Roshar?"

Forgive my tongue in cheek response here, but I didn't have the benefit of attending silver Light University or studying this in person. It's a little unfair to expect me to have the same knowledge as the foremost in world expert on magic two books in.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[CaptainRyan he/him]

4 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

From the evidence I've collected, cultivation's investiture from the light would be to lessen pain or heal damage done to the soul.

Let me first say that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but don't you think that someone would have noticed that putting a patient in direct sunlight had a measurable effect on their pain level? Or wouldn't the Heralds have shared this wisdom in the same way they passed on knowledge about rot spren and other medical issues? Personally, I think that it is a big stretch to say Cultivation's investiture filters through sunlight based on these passages.

6 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

They 'need' it because it makes the process faster.

Fair point. I concede this line of inquiry on my part was ill-considered.

7 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Forgive my tongue in cheek response here, but I didn't have the benefit of attending silver Light University or studying this in person. It's a little unfair to expect me to have the same knowledge as the foremost in world expert on magic two books in.

Forgiven! (Also tongue-in-cheek response haha)

What I meant was that if the theory is "Cultivation's investiture is carried via sunlight" then there should be some sort of mechanism attached (see previous spoilered Taldain stuff). We have not seen any evidence of anyone using sunlight to power anything (surges, fabrials, gemstones, etc.) but we have seen evidence of Stormlight powering all of these. If sunlight was involved, somehow, in the process of magic usage on Roshar then I think Brandon has done an awful job of foreshadowing or preparing readers in any way to accept this.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

We don't have any evidence at all of any modern methods of treating mental illness, and Alethi society would ostracize anyone who would suggest that fighting would cause spiritual damage to a person's soul. We do have evidence fro. The starfall chapter that the radiants were concerned about those damages or "changes" and had ways to protect against them, we just don't know what they are. 

 

I am not trying to suggest light can deal with physical pain or injury, or that it can power surges or fabrials, there's no evidence. 

 

I think that the stone is crucial. Tien finds the special stones that have cultivation has been able to invest in and gives them to Kaladin. Szeth only feels better when he's in the Holy city of Urithuru, the only place where the stones aren't cursed. Dalinar only has his vision in Urithuru.

 

There are many places where either the shin or Szeth mention how stones are cursed or walking on them is profane. I'd be happy to cite them for you, but that's my explanation for why stones aren't heavily invested with cultivation out side of Urithuru. The stones have been 'cursed' by being invested with odium's influence instead.

 

That's another reason for the large glass window in Urithuru and for its place above the clouds. More sunlight gets inside. The cursed stones also explain thunderclasts. If odium is already invested into stone, it's easier for his spren to animate it.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Calderis he/him]

I strongly disagree. The Nahel Spren are manifestations of both Honor and Cultivation mixed. If Honor and Cultivation invested into the same preexisting system that existed on Roshar, using the Spren and bonds that we see pervade the entirety of its ecosystem, then by necessity they would need to deliver that investiture through the same means. 

I've gone off on this before, but I believe that any shard arriving at a world with a preexisting system will be constrained to work within that system. This is, in my opinion, the reason that Ruin and Preservation created a world rather than settling on an existing one. 

Another point against is that the idea of stone holding Odium's investiture is in conflict that much of the stone we've seen on the surface of Roshar is composed of crem, and crem is influenced by Cultivation. 

Quote

Lindel (paraphrased)

Crem and the Purelake on Roshar. Do they have any connection to Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Both existed on the planet before Cultivation arrived.

Lindel (paraphrased)

But both are influenced by her now?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, she influences both.

 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I strongly disagree. The Nahel Spren are manifestations of both Honor and Cultivation mixed. If Honor and Cultivation invested into the same preexisting system that existed on Roshar, using the Spren and bonds that we see pervade the entirety of its ecosystem, then by necessity they would need to deliver that investiture through the same means. 

I've gone off on this before, but I believe that any shard arriving at a world with a preexisting system will be constrained to work within that system. This is, in my opinion, the reason that Ruin and Preservation created a world rather than settling on an existing one. 

Another point against is that the idea of stone holding Odium's investiture is in conflict that much of the stone we've seen on the surface of Roshar is composed of crem, and crem is influenced by Cultivation. 

I'm going to have to ask you to be more specific about where your points of contention like here, as I'm not seeing the contradiction. Your own WoB seems to be contradicting the point you're making as I understand. I'm going to summarize what I understand it to be, let me know where I'm going wrong so I can better understand where the disagreement is:

"Cultivation cannot invest through Light because we know she both has a role in the nahel bond and has an influence on crem."

If this is your argument, I don't see it as actually being in conflict with my own Theory. 

The theory doesn't necessitate that cultivation nahel spren bonds be fueled by anything other than Stormlight, but even if it did that wouldn't be a problem because of  precedent  already made. Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Scadrials mistings and Mistborn didn't need to burn the mists in order to access the powers. There was more than one type of investiture made available by the shards on Scadrial, so I don't see why it's a stretch to assume that same thing on other worlds, your theory about creating Scadrial notwithstanding. If you can create an entire planet I would assume your shardic intent would be a greater restriction than something already existing.

For the part about Crem being influenced by cultivation, again, I don't see the conflict with my own Theory. The cultivation/odium back and forth conflict over the influence on crem/stone is the cornerstone of my theory, as one of the things we are told repeatedly by stone Shamanism is that stone outside of Shinovar is curse. We have the precedent that stone/crem can be influenced by shards, to say that Odium can't because Brandon says that Cultivation does is a little preemptive in my opinion. 

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Ruin influenced Vin her entire life, but that didn't stop her from feeling close to the mists or from being preservation like enough to pick up the shard at the end. One shards influence does not preclude another's.

 

[Calderis he/him]

@Fifth of Daybreak it is hard to be more specific because I disagree with the premise of the idea. Other than Stormlight itself there's no evidence of light being invested that I've seen. 

The shadows screaming at Szeth was a mental effect. The stones that Tien played with had a crystalline structure that normal light made apparent, just like rocks here on earth can have. 

Thunderclasts aren't a product of investiture in the stone, but of a spren animating a chunk of rock. 

Yes, things can be influenced by multiple shards, but that is much much easier to accept when both shards exist on the same world. Cultivation is on Roshar and can effect things directly. Unless you have a voidspren ala stormform providing a hole akin to hemalurgy allowing control, Odium is forced to work through the Unmade on Roshar, because he's not there. He's on Braize. 

You could be right, and I could be wrong, but I feel that this is reaching based on little, and more wanting it to be true. In your stone thread I posted a WoB that said that Szeth's Oathstone was completely non magical and you responded that that doesn't preclude a bond with the stone. It does though. If there is a magical bond between the stone and Szeth, that means there is a magical effect tied to the Oathstone... Making it magical. 

I am more on board with your stone theory, because there is something going on with stone. Between the Soulcasters turning the dead to statues, the Parshendi (and even Parshmen), and the Shin idea that only the stones of Urithiru are unhallowed (Shinovar is not excluded, they just have soil so they don't have to walk on it. And the stone is holy, not cursed).

I've seen nothing irregular about light on Roshar though. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Calderis

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Thanks for clarifying. I hold your opinion in high regard so I very much appreciate the nuance you put into your reply.

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If there is a magical bond between the stone and Szeth, that means there is a magical effect tied to the Oathstone... Making it magical. 

That's a misrepresentation of my argument. If there's an ability that holds people to their oaths, and punishes them if they break them, the oath is an internally placed magical restriction. The stone would be the pre-magical object that would be able to release him from whatever punishment would be inflicted if he didn't follow his oath that's been sealed to him.

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

That's a misrepresentation of my argument. If there's an ability that holds people to their oaths, and punishes them if they break them, the oath is an internally placed magical restriction. The stone would be the pre-magical object that would be able to release him from whatever punishment would be inflicted if he didn't follow his oath that's been sealed to him.

Then I misunderstood your argument. If it is internal, it is not a bond, and is not tied to the stone. 

Bonds as we've seen on Roshar exist between two entities. Usually a spren and at minimum sentient creature. Nahel bonds, fauna and spren, Honorblades and their wielder. 

I think that the mechanics of the magic require either (at minimum) two parties that are sentient, or an investiture source and a sentient mind. If there was a magical restriction on Szeth (which I don't believe there was, as he was able to freely end his servitude with a choice) it is placed on him and him only. The stone is a symbol and nothing more. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

There's probably a good deal of blame to go on my end. I'm still trying to get back into the terminology and lost a lot of ground. Take every opportunity you get to correct me when you can.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Quote

We don't have any evidence at all of any modern methods of treating mental illness

@Fifth of Daybreak, actually, we do. In "Words of Radiance" we are specifically told that Taln is kept in dim light because that is the current best known treatment for dealing with the mentally ill. 

Again, if Cultivation powered sunlight really did help with mental issues then the Heralds would have passed that knowledge along in the same manner they taught hygiene, surgery, etc. 

Apologies for not citing the exact portion but I'm on mobile and in a bit of a hurry. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

19 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

@Fifth of Daybreak, actually, we do. In "Words of Radiance" we are specifically told that Taln is kept in dim light because that is the current best known treatment for dealing with the mentally ill. 

Again, if Cultivation powered sunlight really did help with mental issues then the Heralds would have passed that knowledge along in the same manner they taught hygiene, surgery, etc. 

Apologies for not citing the exact portion but I'm on mobile and in a bit of a hurry. 

You're right! Good catch, I had completely forgotten about this. This theory is teetering on the edge of collapse.

Quote

“Why is it kept so dark in this room?” Pattern asked, perfectly cheerful.

The madman didn’t react to the comment, or even Shallan, as she stepped forward. “Modern theory for helping the mad suggests dim confines,” Shallan whispered. “Too much light stimulates them, and can reduce the effectiveness of treatment.” That was what she remembered, at least. She hadn’t read much on this subject. The room was dark. That window couldn’t be more than a few fingers wide.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 763). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Yata he/him]

9 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

You're right! Good catch, I had completely forgotten about this. This theory is teetering on the edge of collapse.

 

Dim light and soft sounds are used in the real world too.

They serve to avoid Hyper stimulate the patients

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 10/27/2017 at 6:54 AM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I'm fairly sure it's a general consensus that Dalinar's vision at the end of WoR is from Cultivation.

This is literally the first and only time I've ever heard this, so I'll fire shots at "general consensus." I also don't see it, but I'm not putting much stock in a warm light appearing when opening exterior doors as anything beyond well.. going outside into the sunlight.

I don't get the vibe of something suspicious/mysterious the way it feels like you do. Why do you think it's from Cultivation?

---

On 10/27/2017 at 6:54 AM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Quote

They also screamed when he shut his eyes. [...] Bright sunlight shone down to banish the shadows, which kept those screams to a minimum.

I think it is a fair conjecture to assume that the reason the damage recedes in the sunlight is because of Cultivation's influence

Sunlight is quite a useful tool in helping with physical/mental/emotional health in the real world too you know...

Quote

Your Body is Designed to be in the Sun

This is why most of us naturally feel like waking when the sun comes up, and sleeping when it’s dark. These inclinations are regulated by your body’s natural 24-hour cycle, or circadian rhythm, which has evolved over many years to align your physiology with your environment.

Your circadian rhythm depends on receiving sunlight at the appropriate times (during the day) in order to function properly. If you do not get much sunlight when your body is expecting it -- for example because you’re inside working all day or the weather is cold and cloudy -- it can easily lead to changes in your brain that will negatively impact your mood.

For instance, melatonin, the "hibernation hormone," increases with decreased light, which explains that tired feeling that comes on when it begins to get dark outside -- even if it is only 4:00 in the afternoon.

Quote

According to the Mayo Clinic, decreased sun exposure has been associated with a drop in serotonin that can lead to SAD(Seasonal Affective Disorder). You’re more likely to experience SAD in the winter when the days are shorter and the nights are longer.

One of the treatments for SAD is light therapy, which is also known as phototherapy. A doctor can recommend a special light box designed to stimulate the brain to make serotonin and reduce excess melatonin production.

Exposure to sunlight can also benefit those suffering from nonseasonal depression, premenstrual dysphoric disorder, and in pregnant women with depression, according to the Journal of Psychiatry & Neuroscience. Anxiety-related disorders and panic attacks have also been linked with changing seasons and reduced sunlight.

Quote

To conduct the study, a psychologist, physicist, and statistician from BYU analyzed local weather data (looking specifically at 19 different variables, which included sunlight, rain, temperature, and pollution) over the course of six years. They then compared this info with nearly 16,500 therapy patients' archived emotional health data from the same time period.

The researchers were surprised to find that some types of weather that people often assume are related to depression (i.e. rain) had little to no significant correlation with poor mental health; changes in sunlight, on the other hand, were found to be closely connected to changes in the participants' levels of emotional distress: The patients' mental health worsened during periods of low sun and improved during periods of high sun.

Additionally, he sees the souls of his victims in the shadows. More sunlight, less shadows, less paranoia. That's a facet of the physical world itself, which is not the same as the sunlight magically "making the damage recede" as you imply.

 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

12 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Why do you think it's from Cultivation?

I might be misremembering, but I recall several discussions around the visions back when WoR came out and that was the general feeling it seemed like people came to. I might be wrong. I'll go through my logic here anyway.

1: Dalinar recognizes it as a vision. Dalinar is familiar enough visions at this point I trust his judgement when he says something is a vision and not a dream. 

2: The stormfather denies that he sent Dalinar the vision, which means it's not of honor. 

3: Odium is not very likely to send a vision, and if he does it's definitely not likely to make Dalinar feel better about himself.

4: Dalinar's vision is before the conquest, described as things "should be." This could be interpreted using my starfalls quote to mean before Dalinar was damaged by the fighting he had done during the conquest, and cultivation would have reason to want to remind him of that, to help him grow back into that as he grows into his role as Bondsmith.

5: it's not just a 'Warm light appearing as he goes outside.'

Quote

"Warm light bathed him. A deep, enveloping , piercing warmth. A warmth that soaked down deep through his skin, into his very self. He stared at that light, and was not blinded. The source was distant, but he knew it. Knew it well."

89 The Four

It Pierce's him into his very self, which backs my interpretation of Cultivation's alleged lights somehow reinforce damaged souls. He also says he knows the source well, which is an odd thing to say about a son unless the light has a supernatural source.

6: Dalinar mentions the Vision seems stronger than the highstorm visions, specifically referencing the light, again reinforcing a supernatural origin and also implying a living shard since it's stornger than honor's projection, hence, cultivation.

Quote

“What was the meaning of the last vision I received?” Dalinar said. “The one this morning , that came with no highstorm.” NO VISION WAS SENT THIS MORNING. “Yes it was. I saw light and warmth.”

A SIMPLE DREAM. NOT OF ME, NOR OF GODS.

Curious. Dalinar could have sworn it felt the same way as the visions, if not stronger.

89 The Four

12 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

 

 

 

12 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Additionally, he sees the souls of his victims in the shadows.

And when he blinks, which wouldn't be cured by sunlight. My interpretation is backed up by the passage in the book that immediately links the concepts together with the "God of God's" whose gaze he refuses to meet.

Quote

"He did not look up. He would not meet the gaze of the God of Gods. But it was good to be in the sunlight. There were no clouds here to bring the darkness. This place was above them all. Urithiru ruled even the clouds."

I-10 Szeth

Here, Szeth links the sunlight to the 'God of God's' and says that the darkness, the one that brings screams in the immediately proceeding passage, is brought by clouds.

This is the second time he's referred to the sun as the "God of Gods." That could definitely refer to a living shard, as Heralds are considered Gods and Shards could be considered their Gods.

 

We also see him directly reference the screams with the closed eyes after this, the murders weighing on his souls without shadows, and him questioning his sanity, all reinforcing the idea backed by the Starfall quote that his assassinations are hurting him spiritually. 

Quote

Szeth kept his eyes down. Partially to imitate the look of a worker. Partially to lower his gaze from the blazing sun above, the god of gods, who watched him and saw his shame. Szeth should not have been out during the day. He should have hidden his terrible face. 

He felt his every step should leave a bloody footprint. The massacres he’d committed these months, working for his hidden master … He could hear the dead scream every time he closed his eyes. They grated against his soul, wearing it to nothing, haunting him, consuming him. 

Somany dead. So very many dead. Was he losing his mind? Each time he carried out an assassination, he found himself blaming the victims. He cursed them for not being strong enough to fight back and kill him.

Way of Kings 71 Recorded in Blood

Quote

“I have rarely had the luxury of working otherwise,” Szeth said, closing his eyes. 

The screams greeted him.

Recorded in Blood

The Shin have also proven themselves to be more realmatically aware than anyone else on Roshar, so I listen when Szeth talks.

Quote

“I am not absolved,” Szeth said, still wary. “It is a common mistake stone walkers make. Each life I take weighs me down, eating away at my soul.” 

The voices … the screams … spirits below, I can hear them howling. …

Recorded in Blood

I'm familiar with real world applications. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Calderis he/him]

@Fifth of Daybreak what makes you think that the Shin are more realmatically aware? 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Fifth of Daybreak what makes you think that the Shin are more realmatically aware? 

Realmatically might be the wrong words, but same concept applied to a local scale on Roshar:

1: The Shin Shamonate were entrusted with the Honorblades. Knowledge of their existence alone makes them more aware than most of Roshar. 

2: Szeth's knowledge demonstrates that the Shamonate have an in depth theoretical knowledge of both the powers and the terminology around them, something the Nahel bond spren have yet to remember. (Knowledge of lashings.)

3: Szeth also implies that the Shamonate have a working practical knowledge of the Blades and their powers, as it would be required of them to recover an Honorblade from someone skilled enough to kill Szeth.

Quote

He was required to carry the Blade until his death, after which Shin Stone Shamans would recover it from whomever had killed him.

WoK I-6

4: Nalan retrieved his Blade from them in order to start his work, implying they recognized him and relinquished the Blade. 

5: It's implied that Szeth was named truthless for warning that a desolation was coming, or at least that spren are returning and forming Nahel bonds, which is why his punishment is much more severe than other Shin who take up weapons. 

Quote

I could not take money for a Truthless.” “Well, I suppose I can’t take offense at that,” Vstim said, rubbing his chin. “But if you ever have another, let me know. Best servant I ever had. I still regret that I traded him.” “I will remember, friend,” Thresh said. “But I do not think it likely we will have another like him.” He seemed to grow distracted. “Indeed, I should hope that we never do. …”

WoK I-4 Rysn

“Same thing you are,” Kaladin said. He felt a wave of nausea, but forced himself to appear firm. “Windrunner.”

“You can’t be.” Kaladin held up the knife, the few wisps of remaining Light steaming from his skin. Rain sprinkled him. The assassin scrambled backward, eyes as wide as if Kaladin had turned into a chasmfiend.

“They told me I was a liar!” the assassin screamed. “They told me I was wrong! Szeth-son-son-Vallano . . . Truthless. They named me Truthless!” 

...

"Are they back?” he demanded. “Are they all back?” 

WoR Chapter 33 Burdens

“Ah, yes,”Taravangian said, thinking furiously. Szeth had been banished from Shinovar, made Truthless for something relating to a claim that the Voidbringers had returned. If he discovered that he wasn’t wrong about that claim, then what—

WoR I-14

6: They know where Urithuru is. 

7: They are aware of spren that other Rosharans are not. (Spren of the stone.)

I feel like I might be missing a few but I'll stop there.

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

1: The Shin Shamonate were entrusted with the Honorblades. Knowledge of their existence alone makes them more aware than most of Roshar.

The Shin have the blades. We have no knowledge of when or how that happened. That they were "entrusted" with the blades is an assumption. The Heralds abandoned their blades. I'm with The One Who Connects in that I believe the culture that became the Shin rose up around the circle of blades. Also an assumption, but considering the way the blades were left, I don't think that anyone was chosen to give the blades too. 

13 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

2: Szeth's knowledge demonstrates that the Shamonate have an in depth theoretical knowledge of both the powers and the terminology around them, something the Nahel bond spren have yet to remember. (Knowledge of lashings.)

And he also believes that he needs 10 heartbeats to summon the blade, making it so. The Shin don't know as much as they probably believe they do. 

14 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

3: Szeth also implies that the Shamonate have a working practical knowledge of the Blades and their powers, as it would be required of them to recover an Honorblade from someone skilled enough to kill Szeth.

Yes, from using them. Recovering the blade would not be difficult with multiple Honorblades, especially considering that if whoever killed him was unaware that the blade was the source of his powers, it would just function as a Shardblade to them. 

16 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

4: Nalan retrieved his Blade from them in order to start his work, implying they recognized him and relinquished the Blade. 

Again, we know that Nale retrieved his Blade. We have no idea of how, and if that was a voluntary action by the Shin. 

18 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

6: They know where Urithuru is. 

Szeth can fly. He knows where it is, and it's plausible that the Shin may know, but that's not shown in the text. We only know that Szeth knows where it is. 

20 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

7: They are aware of spren that other Rosharans are not. (Spren of the stone.)

Until we see something further, this appears to be a matter of location, rather than increased awareness. 

 

The Shamanate obviously knows more about the Honorblades than others as a consequence of possessing them.

I don't think they are necessarily more aware, just differently aware. They, like Vorinism, believe that the desolations had ended. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

That they were "entrusted" with the blades is an assumption.

While this is a fair criticism of my view, it is not an argument against my point that the Shin are more aware of Cosmere magic than the rest of the planet, as they still have ancient magical artifacts that the rest of the planet doesn't know about. There's also more than enough tangential evidence to at least support the idea that they have the Blades in an official capacity.

 

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

And he also believes that he needs 10 heartbeats to summon the blade, making it so. The Shin don't know as much as they probably believe they do. 

This is not a rebuttal of my point at all, unless you're trying to imply that his use of the terms 'lashings' and 'regrowth' are wrong as well. Their use by Khriss in the Ars Arcanum and by Wyndle disproves that notion, and lends credence to the idea that the Shin were trained in some official capacity and were entrusted the Blades. Having technically correct knowledge without interacting with Heralds or spren involved is highly unlikely otherwise.

 

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Yes, from using them. Recovering the blade would not be difficult with multiple Honorblades, especially considering that if whoever killed him was unaware that the blade was the source of his powers, it would just function as a Shardblade to them. 

This also is not an argument against my point but a reinforcement of it. By using powers that no one else knows about long enough to become familiar with them, they are then familiar with powers no one knows about, making them more magically aware than others on the planet. 

 

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Again, we know that Nale retrieved his Blade. We have no idea of how, and if that was a voluntary action by the Shin. 

It's heavily implied the Shin would not willingly give up the Blades under normal circumstances, and if it was taken from them they would get it back. See first quote above from earlier post, next:

Quote

“So he must have an Honorblade.”“I . . .”

“It is the only explanation.”

“It . . .” Szeth’s voice grew colder. “Yes, the only explanation. I will kill him and retrieve it.”

I-14

Szeth also recognizes Nin as one of his Gods. My inference in this instance is not implausible, as he can obviously show up and say "this is mine." This simplest explanation is probably true.

 

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Szeth can fly. He knows where it is, and it's plausible that the Shin may know, but that's not shown in the text. We only know that Szeth knows where it is. 

Urithuru is above the clouds. It's highly implausible that Szeth just happened to stumble upon a city his people consider holy flying above the clouds on limited Stormlight while flying around the world assassinating leaders for King T. It's more likely that he knew its location beforehand and only went there to think after he found evidence he might not be truthless after his fight with Kaladin. The idea that he randomly was flying above the clouds in the mountains in a remote part of the world when he's supposed to be a slave to whomever holds his oathstone is so implausible as to be ridiculous, especially considering the history he knows of the place, which he would have to have learned from the shin, as it's a cultural icon. This once again reinforces that they know more than general Roshar.

 

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Until we see something further, this appears to be a matter of location, rather than increased awareness. 

 

The Shamanate obviously knows more about the Honorblades than others as a consequence of possessing them.

This is not an argument. It doesn't matter how I know something someone else doesn't know, it doesn't change the fact that it's still something I know that they do not.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Urithuru is above the clouds. It's highly implausible that Szeth just happened to stumble upon a city his people consider holy flying above the clouds on limited Stormlight while flying around the world assassinating leaders for King T. It's more likely that he knew its location beforehand and only went there to think after he found evidence he might not be truthless after his fight with Kaladin. The idea that he randomly was flying above the clouds in the mountains in a remote part of the world when he's supposed to be a slave to whomever holds his oathstone is so implausible as to be ridiculous, especially considering the history he knows of the place, which he would have to have learned from the shin, as it's a cultural icon. This once again reinforces that they know more than general Roshar.

They do not think Urithiru is holy. Quite the opposite, it is the only place in Roshar that stone isn't holy with is "stones unhallowed." 

As to the rest of your post, I was not attempting to make arguments against. I was saying that I don't agree due to lack of evidence. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

They do not think Urithiru is holy. Quite the opposite, it is the only place in Roshar that stone isn't holy with is "stones unhallowed." 

This is factually incorrect.

Quote

The highest tower in the world, hidden in the tops of the mountains, was perfect for his contemplation. If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here. The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed. This place was holy.

WoR I-10 Szeth

 

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

This is factually incorrect.

 

Huh. I remembered that completely backwards. 

Now I have to dig in to the Shin again. Because this is... Odd considering other lines about stone. 

Thank you