Growth as surgebinding

[harry31j97 he/him]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but I noticed a curious use of phrase in tWoK in Dalinar's vision when KR heals him. When his wife in the vision asks the KR to heal him again, she replies that she should save 'REGROWTH' for others who may need it. How can she preserve Growth? If she has sufficient stormlight she should be able to use it since Growth is not a material thing but a name given to a type of surgebinding. May be she wanted to say 'I should preserve stormlight for others'? Or is Regrowth completely different than Growth the surgebinding?

[Swimmingly he/him]

I think Growth is the Surge, but ReGrowth specifically refers to the use of that Surge for healing.

Since she's using a fabrial, then it can probably only perform ReGrowth, hence the terminology.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Swimmingly

[Moogle]

Regrowth is to Growth as a Basic Lashing is to Gravity. It's a use of the Growth Surge.

 

Have you read the Lift Interlude from Words of Radiance? You'd probably find it wonderful.

[harry31j97 he/him]

@Moogle,yes I have read it, but don't agree with you there. Basic lashing is a PROCESS of surgebinding gravity by which a specific effect is achieved. You Do a process, you don't Save a process. If Regrowth is like that then the term used should be stormlight not Regrowth since the KR would need to 'Save' stormlight to 'Do' Regrowth/basic lashing. If on the other hand Regrowth is a fabrial as Swimmingly suggests, like a soulcaster, then the term 'save Regrowth' is somewhat palatable. @Swimmingly, do we have WoB that Regrowth is a fabrial?

[Moogle]

@Moogle,yes I have read it, but don't agree with you there. Basic lashing is a PROCESS of surgebinding gravity by which a specific effect is achieved. You Do a process, you don't Save a process. If Regrowth is like that then the term used should be stormlight not Regrowth since the KR would need to 'Save' stormlight to 'Do' Regrowth/basic lashing. If on the other hand Regrowth is a fabrial as Swimmingly suggests, like a soulcaster, then the term 'save Regrowth' is somewhat palatable. @Swimmingly, do we have WoB that Regrowth is a fabrial?

 

All the Surgebinding that the Radiants did could be replicated by fabrials. You could make a Basic Lashing fabrial for example. It seems apparent that the Stoneward was using a Regrowth fabrial (which uses the Growth Surge), because Stonewards don't normally have access to the Growth Surge.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly he/him]

No, but I'm assuming that the fabrial she uses is one of the ancient ones that replicate KR abilities directly, and probably have to have infused and "tuned" gems to work properly.

Edit: ninja moogle

Edited February 17, 2014 by Swimmingly

[harry31j97 he/him]

Hmm... Hadn't thought of that. Thanks

 

Edit: Err.. But then is Dalinar wrong in saying that there were no fabrials in that time period?

Edited February 17, 2014 by WeiryWriter
please don't double post, use the "edit" feature

[Moogle]

Err.. But then is Dalinar wrong in saying that there were no fabrials in that time period?

 

Probably. He had one directly used on him and didn't realize it, because it was completely different than what he thought fabrials could do. Navani didn't believe him, you'll note.

[Swimmingly he/him]

I'm thinking that recent and ancient fabrials are as different as longbows and Uzi's. Same general principle, but massively different use, power, skill set, etc.

[Moogle]

I'm thinking that recent and ancient fabrials are as different as longbows and Uzi's. Same general principle, but massively different use, power, skill set, etc.

 

I disagree weakly on this point. The ancient fabrials clearly did not trap spren in gems. I think they likely operated on very different principles (though at a low level I suppose they're similar).

[Swimmingly he/him]

About as similar as, say, a longbow and a Uzi?

What I mean by that is that they both manipulate Surges, but while the ancient ones appear to require training and are quite versatile, the modern ones are much simpler to use but more limited in the ability of each fabrial. Modern fabrial science feels like steampunk (gempunk?), honestly, while the ancient ones have more of a "magical-artifact-of-mystery-and-wonder" vibe.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

About as similar as, say, a longbow and a Uzi?

What I mean by that is that they both manipulate Surges, but while the ancient ones appear to require training and are quite versatile, the modern ones are much simpler to use but more limited in the ability of each fabrial. Modern fabrial science feels like steampunk (gempunk?), honestly, while the ancient ones have more of a "magical-artifact-of-mystery-and-wonder" vibe.

Are we sure the modern ones manipulate surges? After all, the surges come from the nahel spren, right? So if you can trap spren other than nahel spren in fabrials, wouldn't they have different abilities?

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I disagree weakly on this point. The ancient fabrials clearly did not trap spren in gems. I think they likely operated on very different principles (though at a low level I suppose they're similar).

We might also be referencing that process with some incorrect undertones. It may not be that you need to "trap" spren to use fabrials. It could be more of a nature thing, you know? Maybe spren really like being useful in those ways considering it is the idea they are based around. That being said, maybe that is the difference between old and new fabrials?

[Moogle]

Are we sure the modern ones manipulate surges? After all, the surges come from the nahel spren, right? So if you can trap spren other than nahel spren in fabrials, wouldn't they have different abilities?

 

The modern ones don't manipulate Surges. Probably. I don't think we even know if they can trap Nahel spren in gems. I find this doubtful. I can't imagine the Radiants imprisoning sentient spren in gems just so they could have a few extra Surges.

[Swimmingly he/him]

I'm pretty sure that they do, in fact, manipulate specific surges to generate the effects that they do, given that the Surges on Roshar are the powers of creation.

[Moogle]

I'm pretty sure that they do, in fact, manipulate specific surges to generate the effects that they do, given that the Surges on Roshar are the powers of creation.

 

Which Surge do you propose is used to detect emotions, then? It seems to me that there's a bunch of 'fundamentals' - pain, wind, heat, emotions, and the Ten Surges are just a small subset of all the possibilities.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly he/him]

...OK point conceded.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Which Surge do you propose is used to detect emotions, then? It seems to me that there's a bunch of 'fundamentals' - pain, wind, heat, emotions, and the Ten Surges are just a small subset of all the possibilities.

There's also spanreeds, which seem rather far from any surges. The Pain Knife, too.

[Moogle]

There's also spanreeds, which seem rather far from any surges. The Pain Knife, too.

 

I purposefully didn't bring those up, because of all the theories about Division being used in spanreeds. The current state of theorycraft on the Division Surge is... mixed. I believe people have speculated that Division does everything from transfer Stormlight to other people, to repairing spiritual bonds, to being responsible for spanreeds, to forming bonds to other people when the only thing we know (and we don't even have confirmation!) is that it can shatter stones at a touch.

 

Best to leave all of that alone!

[skaa he/him]

Which Surge do you propose is used to detect emotions, then? It seems to me that there's a bunch of 'fundamentals' - pain, wind, heat, emotions, and the Ten Surges are just a small subset of all the possibilities.

 

Well, wind fabrials are obviously using Pressure.

 

(Possible spoiler for those who don't want to see Surge-related info revealed outside of WoK.)

As for the Surge behind emotion and pain fabrials, I believe that would be the Tension Surge. I talked about that in my Attributes and Surges thread, but I'll repeat my argument here.

 

First of all, the Stoneward in Dalinar's vision said that she could hear a call for help even at a distance, so we know that there is a Surge that can enhance detection ability.

 

We also know that (spoiler) there is a Tension Surge. Tension is defined as "the pull exerted by a solid trying to restore its original, more compressed shape." There is also the surface tension of liquids, which is the "contractive tendency of the surface of a liquid that allows it to resist an external force". Tension is therefore basically a resistance, a reaction, to change.

 

Now, imagine a magical ability involving this, an ability to magically react to change, any change. It will make the user capable of detecting any kind of phenomenon, both physical ones (sound, motion, physical presence, etc.) and cognitive ones (pain, emotion, etc.).

 

That's what I believe the Tension Surge provides. That's what the warning fabrials like emotion bracelets and sensation fabrials like pain knives mimic.

 

Anyway, we know that Rosharan scholars (even those who aren't Surgebinders) are aware of the ten Surges. They see the Surges as the fundamental forces of nature. So when a fabrial manipulates nature, it's probably manipulating a Surge.

 

On topic: It's too bad that modern Roshar no longer has access to ReGrowth fabrials. I wonder why they were able to preserve ancient Soulcaster fabrials but not ReGrowth ones? From the Starfalls chapter, it just didn't register in Dalinar's mind that the heliodor-topaz thing could be a fabrial. Maybe he heard some modern Artifabrian claiming that healing fabrials are impossible, or something.

Edited February 18, 2014 by skaa

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Well, wind fabrials are obviously using Pressure.

 

(Possible spoiler for those who don't want to see Surge-related info revealed outside of WoK.)

As for the Surge behind emotion and pain fabrials, I believe that would be the Tension Surge. I talked about that in my Attributes and Surges thread, but I'll repeat my argument here.

 

First of all, the Stoneward in Dalinar's vision said that she could hear a call for help even at a distance, so we know that there is a Surge that can enhance detection ability.

 

We also know that (spoiler) there is a Tension Surge. Tension is defined as "the pull exerted by a solid trying to restore its original, more compressed shape." There is also the surface tension of liquids, which is the "contractive tendency of the surface of a liquid that allows it to resist an external force". Tension is therefore basically a resistance, a reaction, to change.

 

Now, imagine a magical ability involving this, an ability to magically react to change, any change. It will make the user capable of detecting any kind of phenomenon, both physical ones (sound, motion, physical presence, etc.) and cognitive ones (pain, emotion, etc.).

 

That's what I believe the Tension Surge provides. That's what the warning fabrials like emotion bracelets and sensation fabrials like pain knives mimic.

 

Anyway, we know that Rosharan scholars (even those who aren't Surgebinders) are aware of the ten Surges. They see the Surges as the fundamental forces of nature. So when a fabrial manipulates nature, it's probably manipulating a Surge.

 

On topic: It's too bad that modern Roshar no longer has access to ReGrowth fabrials. I wonder why they were able to preserve ancient Soulcaster fabrials but not ReGrowth ones? From the Starfalls chapter, it just didn't register in Dalinar's mind that the heliodor-topaz thing could be a fabrial. Maybe he heard some modern Artifabrian claiming that healing fabrials are impossible, or something.

Surface Tensions is only the working name for the surge. Brandon described it as making objects rigid or soft. Besides, I doubt any of the surges have such metaphorical definitions

[skaa he/him]

Surface Tensions is only the working name for the surge. Brandon described it as making objects rigid or soft. Besides, I doubt any of the surges have such metaphorical definitions

 

I think you underestimate the complexity of the Surgebinding system if you think there's only one dimension to each Surge. Remember that the ability to accelerate plant growth and the ability to heal wounds are the same Growth Surge. The others are probably similar.

 

Rigidity might be one definition of tension, but there is also another definition: the sense of nervous anticipation. That's a definition that can be applied to the supernatural detection of emotion and phenomenon found in Alerters.

 

Anyway, I sure hope we'll find out the truth in two weeks.

Edited February 21, 2014 by skaa

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

The thing is, this isn't a magic based on wordplay and definitions. The names of the surges are meant to describe the phenomena the surges create: the surges aren't based on the definitions. When Kaladin manipulates Gravity, he's not making things more serious, even though that's a definition for Gravity. When he manipulates Pressure, he's not coercing someone into doing something. What's being manipulated here is the physical, scientific definition.

To get the surge to be able to sense things, you're making so many stretches here that it doesn't really mean anything anymore. First, it's described as making something hard or soft. Brandon then gives it a WIP title of Surface Tension. You then further change it into Tension, and then redefine further as nervous anticipation even though the initial description of the surge has nothing to do with it. And then from there, you extrapolate it into being able to sense things supernaturally, which doesn't make much sense to me anyways: just because I'm tense doesn't mean I'm psychic.

Besides, these are meant to be translated from Alethi, right? What exactly says the secondary definitions English has to our word for Tension are the same as the secondary meanings Alethi has? For all we know, Tension to them also can mean love or something and the Stonewards are all cooking up love potions.

[skaa he/him]

The thing is, this isn't a magic based on wordplay and definitions. The names of the surges are meant to describe the phenomena the surges create: the surges aren't based on the definitions.

 
I hope I make myself clear that my theories are just that: theories. But that, that looks like the Assuredness Movement to me. Because you don't know that the other definitions won't ever be taken into account. If I'm wrong about that, please give me a WoB to back it up.
 

When Kaladin manipulates Gravity, he's not making things more serious.

It's "Gravitation", actually. And have you noticed that people tend to follow Kaladin? It's like they gravitate towards him for some reason... Nah... must be a coincidence.
 

When he manipulates Pressure, he's not coercing someone into doing something.

I will agree that this is true, pending his statement of the other Windrunner Ideals.
 

To get the surge to be able to sense things, you're making so many stretches here that it doesn't really mean anything anymore. First, it's described as making something hard or soft. Brandon then gives it a WIP title of Surface Tension. You then further change it into Tension, and then redefine further as nervous anticipation even though the initial description of the surge has nothing to do with it. And then from there, you extrapolate it into being able to sense things supernaturally, which doesn't make much sense to me anyways: just because I'm tense doesn't mean I'm psychic.

You have it backwards. When I first developed my theory on the Surges, I wasn't thinking of what Brandon said about the Tension Surge at all (because I forgot about it, remember?). I was thinking of a possible Tension ability that coincided with sensation-based and emotion-based fabrials, since every other fabrial that we know of has an equivalent Surge that describes its function (see this thread for evidence). My thought process at the time (though I didn't write it down) involved thinking about how the skin, stretched out as it is all over the body (giving it tension), can sense local changes when something presses against it. In order to generalize that a bit, I finally defined tension as things reacting to changes, which seemed consistent with the Wikipedia articles on tension and surface tension.

It's all very ad hoc, yes, but that's fantasy for you. Anyway, when I was reminded of the rigidity thing, it just didn't bother me at all because we know of at least two Surges with multiple manifestations (Gravitation Surge: Basic Lashing and Reverse Lashing; Growth Surge: Growth and Re-Growth). So it stands to reason that the other Surges will have multiple manifestations as well.

So, no, in my mind I didn't do much stretching at all.
 

Besides, these are meant to be translated from Alethi, right?

Yeah... remember Shallan's "errorgance"? Remember Hoid's "insluts"? Or every other clever little English-based wordplay in Brandon's Cosmere books? How much are you willing to bet that translation issues were taken into account when writing those?

Okay, sorry about that. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Tension. But would you at least agree that, given what we know about the Growth Surge, the other Surges might have more than one manifestation as well?

Edited February 22, 2014 by skaa

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I very much doubt Kaladin is magically making people follow him. It's the other way around: he's getting magic because people follow him, since the associated traits of the Windrunners are Protecting and Leading after all.

I definitely agree the Surges can have more than one manifestation. But I think they have to be much more related than what you're talking about with Tension. The Basic and Reverse Lashings are both applications of the scientific force of Gravity. And Growth and Regrowth are still forms of biological growth. That's very different from saying Tension gives you both the ability to make things rock-hard and the ability to sense everything.Still, maybe it is best to just agree to disagree.

Edited February 22, 2014 by PorridgeBrick