[OB] Some thoughts on Progression

[Dlyol]

So this is my first topic on here and I thought I'd share some ideas I've been having about Progression and specifically its Growth (as opposed to Regrowth or healing aspect).

I think as a community (probably rightly) are more excited about the applications of Progression for battlefield healing etc but two things that we've learnt in the preview chapters have had me wondering as to whether the historical radiants also used it to produce food during desolations. One is the fact that Urithiru contains lots of fields, the other is the ability Dalinar showed to co-opt and possibly magnify the surges of others.

It seems apparent that Urithiru was at least partially built as a final fortress for humanity in the eventuality that a desolation drove them from everywhere else in Roshar and this is obviously why it has these fields (as well as saving the Radiants from having to trade with others in times of peace). The problem though is that given that Urithiru has the capacity to hold very large numbers of people these fields seem insufficient. Now in present times, Rosharans survive sieges by turning things into food directly through Soulcasters, which is likely more Stormlight efficient than using progression to grow plants of which not all is edible, additional energy is required to be turned into bread and are generally less nutritious than meat. This is especially true as farming is far less time efficient than Soulcasting - why would the Radiants bother to spend the best part of a year growing crops when in that time multiple Highstorms will come to give additional Stormlight to use for Soulcasting food directly?

The problem with the idea of using progression to speed up farming to near instantaneous is that it is likely that as with other surges you can only use it on plants you are actually touching. But when I read Dalinar co-opting Shallan's Lightweaving (with what I presume is his Resonance) to produce an effect she herself was incapable of I wondered whether it might be possible for a Bondsmith to use the Surge of Progression to cover an entire field and so accelerate the growth of the crops throughout. The visual image of her Stormlight spreading to fill out the room struck me as similar to that of a Truthwatcher or Edgedancer touching the soil under the influence of a Bondsmith and his Stormlight spreading to grow seeds instantly to maturity. 

As I see it there are two problems with the theory, one it is unclear whether Bondsmiths could, in fact, do this - especially if the seeds aren't touching each other, the other is it is unclear how the Stormlight efficiency of this would line up next to Soulcasting. The fact does remain, however, that Urithiru's fields seem both insufficient and redundant when servicing its population given the existence of Soulcasting.

If anyone has any relevant WOBs or thoughts on the Growth aspect of Progression or the fields of Urithiru I'd love to hear them but thanks for reading this longish post

[redbishop]

Huh.  That's a really good point.  I can't say I like the Bondsmith portion, but that is a matter of practicality.  With a maximum of 3 Bondsmiths at a time, I doubt that one of their intended functions was to be facilitate magical fertilizer.

The Growth + Gardens idea makes a lot of sense, though.  With adequate stormlight, even a few Edgedancers and Truthwatchers could surely turn inadequate space into a surplus.  Given Wyndle's obsession with gardens, I imagine this is likely a passion-project for some KRs and their spren.

Now I'm imagining Edgedancer squires being called Gardeners.

[Dlyol]

That Gardeners idea is interesting because I wonder whether the fields might also be there not for reasons of practicality but either as you say to satiate the desire of some Radiants to farm as a hobby or perhaps as part of their role in maintaining knowledge for humanity through Desolations and in the gaps between them. We know from one of Dalinar's visions that the Radiants based in Alethla maintain the arts of killing and that during Desolations vast percentages of humanities populations perished. If the knowledge of how to farm dies out with those huge casualties then humanity can't recover from Desolations so perhaps the fields are there so the Radiants can know how to do it and so pass the knowledge on to post-Desolation humanity.

[BlackYeti he/him]

@Dlyol, I really like this idea, it makes a great deal of sense. 

Also, welcome to the Shard! Don't worry about the length of the post, many people here (including me on occasion) write far longer posts.

20 minutes ago, redbishop said:

The Growth + Gardens idea makes a lot of sense, though.  With adequate stormlight, even a few Edgedancers and Truthwatchers could surely turn inadequate space into a surplus.

I'm not sure about the Truthwatchers, to be honest. I've got a feeling, based of off the fact that the Windrunners and the Edgedancers have both got two abilities tied to one Surge but only one ability tied to the other, that this pattern might be repeated across all of the Orders. If so, then the fact that the Truthwatchers have already demonstrated the ability of Regrowth would mean that they wouldn't get the Growth ability of the Progression surge.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I was wondering about the gardens. As Uruthiru is above the storms there would be no rain to feed the plants but if the gardens were meant to be tended by Radiants using Growth... well that is a whole 'nother story! Great idea! Also, welcome!

[Mulk he/him]

11 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I was wondering about the gardens. As Uruthiru is above the storms there would be no rain to feed the plants but if the gardens were meant to be tended by Radiants using Growth... well that is a whole 'nother story! Great idea! Also, welcome!

I'd not put it that Urithiru is above ALL storms, just above high storms and I think the Everstorm.  While we don't have highstorms on earth, it's pretty easy if you ever go to the mountains to see that some storms reach the peaks and others do not.  I've had the singular experience of standing on top of a 14er in Colorado while rainclouds blew through beneath us and then having to descend down through it.  I've also had the experience of being in high passes or a peak and have it be pouring down rain, so while I think we can conclude that based on its height rain is relatively rare at Urithiru, it probably does still rain.  Just not as often. 

I would agree though that the presence of Radiants who can grow plants minimizes the need for water, which leaves more water for the human and animal population up there.  Which leads me to another question: does the Weeping affect Urithiru?  I'm gonna have to go reread some stuff as I just can't recall off the top of my head.

[Catladyman]

7 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

I'm not sure about the Truthwatchers, to be honest. I've got a feeling, based of off the fact that the Windrunners and the Edgedancers have both got two abilities tied to one Surge but only one ability tied to the other, that this pattern might be repeated across all of the Orders. If so, then the fact that the Truthwatchers have already demonstrated the ability of Regrowth would mean that they wouldn't get the Growth ability of the Progression surge.

What makes you think that Edgedancers only have one Abrasion-related ability? True, we have only seen Lift decrease friction, but she is also the only Edgedancer we have seen and nowhere near expert at using her abilities. I think Edgedancers will also be able to increase friction, as well.

[BlackYeti he/him]

9 hours ago, Catladyman said:

What makes you think that Edgedancers only have one Abrasion-related ability? True, we have only seen Lift decrease friction, but she is also the only Edgedancer we have seen and nowhere near expert at using her abilities. I think Edgedancers will also be able to increase friction, as well.

Perhaps they can (certainly Nale's comments implied it). If so, would that be a second ability or an extension of the first. If not then there is no issue here.

I don't know either way, I've simply spotted the makings of a pattern across the Windrunner and Edgedancer Orders, and am extrapolating based off of that pattern. I could easily be completely wrong here (I did preface my comment with "I'm not sure about the Truthwatchers", rather than "It can't be the Truthwatchers" or something similar), I just think it's fun to speculate.

Edited September 21, 2017 by BlackYeti

[Watchcry he/him]

15 minutes ago, Catladyman said:

What makes you think that Edgedancers only have one Abrasion-related ability? True, we have only seen Lift decrease friction, but she is also the only Edgedancer we have seen and nowhere near expert at using her abilities. I think Edgedancers will also be able to increase friction, as well.

I thought she already increased friction by climbing walls like Spiderman to spy on Darkness. 

[17th Splinter he/him]

1 hour ago, Watchcry said:

I thought she already increased friction by climbing walls like Spiderman to spy on Darkness. 

No that was just her useing her Lift-weirdness and using Wyndle's crystals to climb. Since no one can see the crystals it looked like see had no handholds

[Ciridae]

14 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

I'm not sure about the Truthwatchers, to be honest. I've got a feeling, based of off the fact that the Windrunners and the Edgedancers have both got two abilities tied to one Surge but only one ability tied to the other, that this pattern might be repeated across all of the Orders.

I think there's a WoB out there that says that Gravitation would work the same way for Skybreakers as it does for Windrunners. I'd be very surprised if some orders could only use a surge in a limited fashion. I think the simplest explanation for the pattern is that the character's we've seen use the surges so far are still learning about their powers. Brandon likes to write magic systems with seemingly clear rules, only to have the characters discover something that breaks those rules and expands the system we thought we understood, like in Mistborn.

I think that Adhesion for example is capable of far more than we've been shown so far.

[Hyarmenatan]

15 hours ago, Dlyol said:

it is unclear how the Stormlight efficiency of this would line up next to Soulcasting

Even though we are discussing Soulcasting by a Radiant, not an ardent with a fabrial, there are still some clues we can extract from the ardent soulcasting. The process where a fabrial is used seems to be not excellent and can damage the gems or even destroy them completely. Based on that, I assume that soulcasting takes like A LOT of Investiture and actually is one of harder things to do - only copying Sharblades and Plates seems harder for the artifabrians. 

Having this in mind, it seems reasonable that convincing a plant or a set of plants to grow using Growth would, of course, consume a lot of Stormlight, but still it would take less than, say, making a rock turn into food. Plants are already food or a future food, they only need some more nutrition (Investiture) while rocks are, well, rocks. I think simply speeding up the growth process would be more cost efficient than changing the entire physical nature of an object. 

 

[BlackYeti he/him]

1 hour ago, Ciridae said:

I think there's a WoB out there that says that Gravitation would work the same way for Skybreakers as it does for Windrunners. I'd be very surprised if some orders could only use a surge in a limited fashion. I think the simplest explanation for the pattern is that the character's we've seen use the surges so far are still learning about their powers. Brandon likes to write magic systems with seemingly clear rules, only to have the characters discover something that breaks those rules and expands the system we thought we understood, like in Mistborn.

I think that Adhesion for example is capable of far more than we've been shown so far.

I presume you're referring to this WoB:

Quote

OUTIS

Is the crossover surge for each Knight the same?

BRANDON SANDERSON

To an extent, yes. Each of the combinations make a little bit of a tweak to how things act. But when you see the Skybreakers affecting gravity it will look much the same as what you saw on the Windrunners.

I had not forgotten this, I just don't think that it contracts my speculation. It does not say that the Skybreakers can use Gravitation in all of the same ways as the Windrunners, only that it will look much the same when they do use it.

Indeed, we have seen the Skybreakers use basic lashings in Edgedancer, and it did appear to function the same as it would for a Windrunner.  However, they have not demonstrated the ability to use a reverse lashing, and I'm predicting that they can't. 

Just as I predict that the Bondsmiths will get a full lashing and one other ability tied to Adhesion, but only one ability tied to Tension.

[Yata he/him]

Progression requires not addictional medium to be used while Trasformation requires a right kind of gemstone and it could possible destroy it.

Progression allow also to make food grow and be ready for when you will need it, while Soulcasting have to be done almost in little time before the food has to be used (or it will rot as every other biological matter).

As you could see there is no a unilateral Soulcasting>Growth but it depends on the context, both of them have scenarios where they could overcome the other.

By the way I believe different Orders gains access to the Surges to the same extent, the minor differences are probably caused by the Radiant's attitude, a possible sinergy with the other surge and (if applicable) the KR's Resonance.

PS: The Bondsmiths don't seem able to allow Radiants to do something beyond their normal Surges' capacity. Shallan (except the needed information) could create a map like that if she wanted. Dalinar didn't boosted her Lightweaving, he only force her to activate it

Edited September 21, 2017 by Yata

[Dlyol]

1 hour ago, Hyarmenatan said:

Having this in mind, it seems reasonable that convincing a plant or a set of plants to grow using Growth would, of course, consume a lot of Stormlight, but still it would take less than, say, making a rock turn into food. Plants are already food or a future food, they only need some more nutrition (Investiture) while rocks are, well, rocks. I think simply speeding up the growth process would be more cost efficient than changing the entire physical nature of an object. 

I don't doubt this part. My query arises from the fact that the percentage of food and its nutritional content derived from Soulcasting will be higher. Soulcasting a rock into meat will be expensive but it will all be edible and highly nutritious. Accelerating the growth of plants leaves you with a plant of which a lot isnt edible (unclear what the percentages are in Roshar but most of a cereal plant isn't used to make bread) and will be less nutritious. So the process will probably be cheaper but whether it will produce more food per unit stormlight I'm not sure

[Hyarmenatan]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Trasformation requires a right kind of gemstone and it could possible destroy it.

Do we have a confirmation that Radiant would also destroy a gem used as a source of Stormlight to soulcast? This happens for ardents with fabrials, but for Radiants too? Also, does a Radiant need the Stormlight to be stored in a right gem? They can soulcast every Essence as Jasnah states after saving Shallan's life. I believe profficiency in soulcasting is only a matter of practice and progress as a Radiant, not a matter of gem.

I know that Jasnah in Kharbranth while releasing the Taravangians granddaughter did destroy some of the gems in her soulcaster, but I always assumed it was only a part of her disguise and she did it intentionally to hide her true skills.  

[Yata he/him]

19 minutes ago, Hyarmenatan said:

Do we have a confirmation that Radiant would also destroy a gem used as a source of Stormlight to soulcast? This happens for ardents with fabrials, but for Radiants too? Also, does a Radiant need the Stormlight to be stored in a right gem? They can soulcast every Essence as Jasnah states after saving Shallan's life. I believe profficiency in soulcasting is only a matter of practice and progress as a Radiant, not a matter of gem.

I know that Jasnah in Kharbranth while releasing the Taravangians granddaughter did destroy some of the gems in her soulcaster, but I always assumed it was only a part of her disguise and she did it intentionally to hide her true skills.  

There is a WoB about (but at work I could not search on Theoryland) that Trasformation requires Gemstones always. It's a bit quirk of the Soulcasting

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Hyarmenatan said:

Do we have a confirmation that Radiant would also destroy a gem used as a source of Stormlight to soulcast? This happens for ardents with fabrials, but for Radiants too? Also, does a Radiant need the Stormlight to be stored in a right gem? They can soulcast every Essence as Jasnah states after saving Shallan's life. I believe profficiency in soulcasting is only a matter of practice and progress as a Radiant, not a matter of gem.

I know that Jasnah in Kharbranth while releasing the Taravangians granddaughter did destroy some of the gems in her soulcaster, but I always assumed it was only a part of her disguise and she did it intentionally to hide her true skills.  

I've seen conflicting WoBs on this. 

Here's the most recent one I've seen though, Spoilered for length. 

Quote

Darkness

Further on in that… do different gemstones hold a different flavour, or different ‘frequency’ of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm…. Nnnnnnnnooooooo… But kind of? Here’s the thing: So with the gemstones on Roshar… scientifically some of these gemstones are just really close to one another. Like chemical formula and whatever. But, their cognitive selves and their spiritual selves are gonna be very different because of human perception, right? (sure) And so, the answer is both a no and a yes because of that. So people’s perception has sort of changed how the magic works, to an extent… but it’s the same amount of investiture, just with slightly different flavourings.

Darkness

Right, so… is it easier for a soulcaster to turn rock into smoke with a smokestone as opposed to a ruby?

Brandon Sanderson

So … Soulcasting… is gonna really depend on whether you’re using a soulcaster.

Darkness

First is for a soulcaster, second is for a surgebinder.

Brandon Sanderson

A surgebinder is far less constrained than someone using a device accessing surges, right? (sure) A Knight Radiant is far less constrained than somebody using a mechanical means of accessing magic, and I would include Honorblades as a mechanical means of accessing a surge.

Darkness

Cool! So with the whole Jasnah scene, she inhales Stormlight, for using soulcasting. So how is it the soulcaster appears to glow more fiercely instead of growing dimmer in that scene?

Brandon Sanderson

Um… heh heh heh… So… this is perception on Shallan’s part, watching and kind of resonating with the soulcasting, and some weird things are happening that she sees, and not necessarily anyone else is seeing.

Darkness

I love that! Alright… Also, did Taravangian recognize that Jasnah was not soulcasting traditionally? Like was it the hand sinking into the rock that gave it away?

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian knew and already suspected (ok… sure

So a surgebinder is "less constrained" then a Soulcaster color wise. The extent of that freedom though, we just don't know. She did call for a garnet to soulcast Shallan's blood, and while that could have been purely habit with her lie of having a fabrial Soulcaster... I don't think it was. 

Soulcasting works differently then other surgebinding though... We know that. The stormlight transfer seems to go directly from the gem to the object being transformed(which also seems to be why color matters. I wonder if a surgebinder can do it either way. Need the right color for a direct transfer, or suck in the Stormlight and glow for freedom from that restriction?), and large amounts transferred in this manner crack the gemstone, as if it's the speed of the removal causing the problem.  They also crack when regrowing plate... My real question is why they don't crack when a surgebinder sucks Stormlight out of them all at once.