Oathgates and How They Connect

[CaptainRyan he/him]

After a cursory search of the forums, I did not find the answer to the following question:

Can any Oathgate teleport people to any other Oathgate? E.g. Assuming all Oathgates are unlocked (they currently are not) could the Stormseat Oathgate teleport a group of people to Kholinar (assuming a Radiant was there to activate the gate and the appropriate amount of Stormlight was available etc.)?

I would venture a guess that yes, they can. The description of the Stormseat Oathgate in Words of Radiance suggests that Shallan had to select Uruthiru as the destination but that she could have chosen eight (8) other options. Lucky for everyone she did not do that as those gates are locked.

On the other hand, we have in-world evidence that trade passed through Uruthiru during the era of the... uh, Silver Kingdoms? (Sorry, at work so I cannot look up exactly what the quote is nor what era it is from). There is a specific complaint about how Uruthiru was charging higher and higher tariffs for trade passing through the Oathgates. This makes it seem as if one first had to go to Uruthiru and then, from there, select another Oathgate to go to. Now, I assume it is possible that this type of travel was imposed by the Knights Radiant who refused to do direct travel from, say, Kholinar to Stormseat but I find it highly unlikely that every single Radiant would enforce such a decree. Would there not have been Radiants who disagreed with forcing all trade through Uruthiru at usurious rates?

Anywho, it was just a thought I had while thinking of the Oathgates and all they entail. What say you Sharders? Was Uruthiru a hub by design or by decree?

[Stormrunner1730]

I would probably say it was more by design than decree.  I haven't gotten through WOR yet on my re-read, but I would guess you can go to any Oathgate from any other Oathgate.  Maybe it was by decree for certain instances, but I think the Radiants were too varied in philosophy to all agree on the same taxes/rules on Oathgates (unless it very directly related to fighting Odium/Desolations).  Interesting concept to think about though.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Stormrunner1730

[Weltall]

I can't check right now but I think it wasn't that all Oathgate traffic had to pass through Urithiru but rather that a Radiant was needed to use an Oathgate, because only a living Shardblade could unlock them. So it wasn't that they were forcing goods to go from A to B by way of C, but that the people using the Oathgates to go from A to B were being required to pay increasing amounts for the priviledge of using the gates. Or something like that, Jasnah would probably caution us about not having all the facts.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

2 minutes ago, Weltall said:

I can't check right now but I think it wasn't that all Oathgate traffic had to pass through Urithiru but rather that a Radiant was needed to use an Oathgate, because only a living Shardblade could unlock them. So it wasn't that they were forcing goods to go from A to B by way of C, but that the people using the Oathgates to go from A to B were being required to pay increasing amounts for the priviledge of using the gates. Or something like that, Jasnah would probably caution us about not having all the facts.

This is what I would say is my working theory as well. That just begs the question of why were all the Radiants ok with charging a high tax to use the Oathgates? Wouldn't there have been factions within the Knights Radiant that would have spoken out against abusing their powers in this manner?

[Stormrunner1730]

11 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

This is what I would say is my working theory as well. That just begs the question of why were all the Radiants ok with charging a high tax to use the Oathgates? Wouldn't there have been factions within the Knights Radiant that would have spoken out against abusing their powers in this manner?

I doubt that all of the Radiants would have agreed to have high taxes for Oathgate usage.  I wonder if that was a misconception that just became the assumption/myth (like many things in the series/world).  I think that this is another great/frustrating example of Brandon giving us just enough information to theorize, but not enough to confirm certain things (for now at least).  

[CaptainRyan he/him]

3 minutes ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

I doubt that all of the Radiants would have agreed to have high taxes for Oathgate usage.  I wonder if that was a misconception that just became the assumption/myth (like many things in the series/world).  I think that this is another great/frustrating example of Brandon giving us just enough information to theorize, but not enough to confirm certain things (for now at least).  

Hmm, that is a good point. It is entirely possible the complaint about high tariffs is just a misconception (or outright lie) that has persisted through the ages. It sure is hard to sift the "unreliable narrator" bits out of the story sometimes.

[Stormrunner1730]

5 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Hmm, that is a good point. It is entirely possible the complaint about high tariffs is just a misconception (or outright lie) that has persisted through the ages. It sure is hard to sift the "unreliable narrator" bits out of the story sometimes.

Yes, I agree.  Although the "unreliable narrator" aspect is what helps give the series a certain air of mystery.  After all... there's always another secret haha.

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

First off my personal representational is that each Oathgate was a bonded pair; otherwise there wouldn't need to be ten in Urithiru. This is based on in book passages and the fact that Sanderson loves basing magical effects on real world physics in this case quantum entanglement (i see the oathgate as a massive variant of the span reeds where each reed is bound to a single other one). Now starting with that assumption a couple of thoughts.

1. If I were to ship goods by land from mexico to Canada i would likely end up paying tariffs to enter the USA. These taxes have noting to do with the transportation company and everything to do with the middle country. I suspect the oathgate trade was the same idea. The knights running the gates may or may not have been on the city payroll but either way you wouldn't need everyone's support. All you need to do is leave transportation via the gates free and charge a tax to pass through the city from one gate to the next.
2. The speed that goods could be moved (less than a day vs weeks) was initially better then any added cost (likely the cost was initially smaller anyway when you factor food shelter and guards for a caravan.) but once everybody is using them the city government hikes up the rates and trader must keep using the gates or lose the advantage. again only the city administration need to agree on this tax and if this tax was the only monetary input for the city it would be easy to see a tax hike to pay for this or that project.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Tsidqiyah

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

43 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I would venture a guess that yes, they can. The description of the Stormseat Oathgate in Words of Radiance suggests that Shallan had to select Uruthiru as the destination but that she could have chosen eight (8) other options. Lucky for everyone she did not do that as those gates are locked.

I think each Oathgate goes to only one location. There are ten separate plateaus at Urithiru around the tower. This to me indicates that each one has a speedster partner. Almost like spanreeds, where you need the other gemstone half to communicate. 

Quote

The field was ringed by ten columnar plateaus, with steps winding around their bases. The Oathgates.

 

[CaptainRyan he/him]

2 minutes ago, Tsidqiyah said:

First off my personal representational is that each Oathgate was a bonded pair; otherwise there wouldn't need to be ten in Urithiru.

If this the case then why did Shallan need to spin the Stormseat Oathgate, uh, control wall to point at Uruthiru instead of at one of the other options? 

From the first edition of Words of Radiance page 1008 (kindle edition):
"She entered through the hole and walked a curving path through the circular chamber, silently counting the divisions in the floor mural. There were ten main ones, just as there had been ten orders of knights, ten kingdoms, ten peoples. And then - between the segments representing the first and tenth kingdoms - was a narrower eleventh section. It depicted a tall tower. Uruthiru."

From the first edition of Words of Radiance page 1037 (kindle edition):
"The inner wall of the building was like a ring inside a tube - it could rotate, while the outer wall remained in place. The sword moved the inner wall as she pushed on it [...] pushed it around the circle until they were above the picture of Uruthiru, half the circumference from Natanatan where'd she begun."
 

Assuming that all of the other Oathgates become unlocked in the future, doesn't it seem reasonable that stopping the inner wall on one of the other kingdoms would activate those Oathgates? Otherwise, why make such a cumbersome design of having to rotate halfway around the room when there are only two settings (on - send to Uruthiru, and off - do not send)?

 

34 minutes ago, Tsidqiyah said:

All you need to do is leave transportation via the gates free and charge a tax to pass through the city from one gate to the next.

This is a clever thought. Getting TO Uruthiru is free but leaving costs. Foreign merchants could be made to sell their goods at a lower price to Uruthiru merchants who then can send the goods anywhere in the world for a cheaper price.

[Velvet Thunder he/him]

Maybe they realised that running an army of super humans cost a lot of money and supplies.

Also, Radiant's didn't have honorblades and therefore needed a lot of Stormlight. Stormlight is stored in gems, which is the currency. Probably needed quite a lot of stormlight to wage war against a relentless foe, and that power comes, coincidentally from the global currency. 

Undoubtedly there was probably some corruption going on, as that is always the way with humans, but also I reckon an extortionate amount was needed just to supply their powers. which in turn they used to 'save the world'. How do we do this 'fairly'? We offer more convenient technology and abilities and charge a fee. Eventually someone thinks, mmmm money, and raises the price to line their pockets also. 

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

38 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Assuming that all of the other Oathgates become unlocked in the future, doesn't it seem reasonable that stopping the inner wall on one of the other kingdoms would activate those Oathgates? Otherwise, why make such a cumbersome design of having to rotate halfway around the room when there are only two settings (on - send to Uruthiru, and off - do not send)?

We see this type of “door” design in the real world with certain types of security checkpoints and air locks in labs (tech, chem and bio). You enter and the whole chamber rotates until the opening you entered lines up with a second exit.  Cumbersome and complicated yes but it can add an added layer protection against void bringers using the gates (are there such things as voidblades?)

Yes it is reasonable to expect the other "Settings" should send you to those places. and i don't have a good reason beyond quantum entanglement. hopefully Oathbringer teaches us more about fabrils and the surge theory. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Tsidqiyah

[CaptainRyan he/him]

13 minutes ago, Tsidqiyah said:

We see this type of “door” design in the real world with certain types of security checkpoints and air locks in labs (tech, chem and bio). You enter and the whole chamber rotates until the opening you entered lines up with a second exit.  Cumbersome and complicated yes but it can add an added layer protection against void bringers using the gates (are there such things as voidblades?)

While I will certainly give you points for creativity there are so many issues with this being a security feature haha. Namely, if Voidbringers DO have a Shardblade style weapon then they could just cut through the wall of the chamber. Having a rotating door would add no protection. Not to mention that there is some kind of special key/lock mechanism that seems to only accept Radiant Shardblades or Honorblades so I doubt a Voidblade (to use your creative term) would be recognized by the mechanism.

To me, the design of the structure does not make any sense unless there is a reason to be able to stop the rotation at various points in order to activate the Oathgate for other areas. A simple switch would be far more practical if there was only one real option.

Then again, I could be wrong and the Radiants just liked making really creative/artsy chambers for their super cool teleporters haha.

[Yezrien]

What if Urithiru acts like a relay, bouncing teleport signals from one city to another?

So you could travel from, say, Kholinar to Azimir, without stopping in Urithiru to chat with a tax collector, but your dematerialized essence would still pass through the Urithiru Central-Oathgate-system-control-hub.

That would justify the Oathgates being built to "dial" each other, but it would still allow Urithiru to control the whole system. The Radiants could cut a city off from the gate network just by deactivating the corresponding Urithiru gate. So everyone who uses the system would still have to pay.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Belzedar

[Dlyol]

@CaptainRyan Your mention of the tariffs Radiants were charging to use the Oathgates has made me realise that the Radiants had monopoly power in the Oathgate Transportation marketplace. The rulers of the Silver Kingdoms or possibly the Heralds should have set up regulators to do some trustbusting of the Radiants, forced them to divide into multiple groups who could compete on price and consumer value. When I started writing this comment I was being facetious but the more I think about it if the Heralds had forced Roshar into more efficient economic policies maybe their task would have been easier come Desolation time

[CaptainRyan he/him]

2 minutes ago, Dlyol said:

@CaptainRyan Your mention of the tariffs Radiants were charging to use the Oathgates has made me realise that the Radiants had monopoly power in the Oathgate Transportation marketplace. The rulers of the Silver Kingdoms or possibly the Heralds should have set up regulators to do some trustbusting of the Radiants, forced them to divide into multiple groups who could compete on price and consumer value. When I started writing this comment I was being facetious but the more I think about it if the Heralds had forced Roshar into more efficient economic policies maybe their task would have been easier come Desolation time

Love it! They could operate it like the FCC but instead of selling frequencies they could sell time blocks of gate usage. Highest bidder gets to "own" the gate for certain time periods (certain hours of the day, certain days of the week, etc.) and charge whatever they want for use during that time. Assuming multiple people/companies own different times it would force prices down as they compete for business. Except there is an upper bound to how much can be transported in a given time period (X number of people/goods per hour can be moved) so once demand exceeds that then prices would rise.

One thing is that the Heralds are not allowed to stay behind after a Desolation so they would have to set up the system during the war which might prove tricky. Alas.

[Dlyol]

Quote

Love it! They could operate it like the FCC but instead of selling frequencies they could sell time blocks of gate usage. Highest bidder gets to "own" the gate for certain time periods (certain hours of the day, certain days of the week, etc.) and charge whatever they want for use during that time. Assuming multiple people/companies own different times it would force prices down as they compete for business. Except there is an upper bound to how much can be transported in a given time period (X number of people/goods per hour can be moved) so once demand exceeds that then prices would rise.

One thing is that the Heralds are not allowed to stay behind after a Desolation so they would have to set up the system during the war which might prove tricky. Alas.

 

This is actually a much better way of doing it than I was imagining it which was Radiants standing in their shardplate behind little wooden market stalls outside Oathgate platforms desperately hawking their wares to slightly bemused travellers. Given that Oathgates are clearly a Utility and a natural monopoly it does as you say make sense to regulate them as such. The fact that ten obsessed Rosharans would probably insist on ten different competitors would also lead to better competition than we see in the real world...

[Betrail]

Haha seeing how history can change could people in the past been angry how the "tariffs" were nothing more than the draining of spheres? It drains more, the more people you bring. Which if radients never explained it would look like something they were doing to get more stormlight.