Stormrunner1730 Posted September 19, 2017 Report Share Posted September 19, 2017 I just re-read the scene in WOK when Kaladin is strung up in a highstorm for his "side-carry" bridge maneuver. It got me thinking about the Stormfather and what exactly he is. I'm sure this is basically confirmed somewhere, but the Stormfather is basically a "god-spren" merged with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, right? So in a sense, is Tanavast not as dead as we are led to believe he is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansalem Posted September 19, 2017 Report Share Posted September 19, 2017 Before Honor was shattered, the Stormfather existed. Sometime after the shattering, the Stormfather merged somehow with Tanavast's cognitive shadow. So from one view the first two are both dead and there is a third entity made of them both. It isn't Tanavast and it isn't the original Stormfather. It's both and neither. So it depends on how you choose to look at it. Personally I would say that Tanavast is dead, but I also wouldn't disagree if someone said he wasn't. You're getting into a probably unsolveable philosophical question about the nature of the self, identity in general, and the nature of consciousness. It's a pretty deep rabbit hole. In short, "in a sense" Tanavast is not dead, but what does "in a sense" really mean here? And does it even matter? The Stormfather himself speaks of Tanavast as though he is a separate entity and he doesn't act as Honor likely would act in his place. Are you still you when your personality has changed that much? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 On 9/19/2017 at 8:54 AM, Stormrunner1730 said: So in a sense, is Tanavast not as dead as we are led to believe he is? That depends on your definition of dead. Tanavast is a cognitive shadow. His body is dead, but his mind is alive. Where do you draw the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormrunner1730 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 30 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: That depends on your definition of dead. Tanavast is a cognitive shadow. His body is dead, but his mind is alive. Where do you draw the line? So his cognitive shadow is still present and actively sentient in the Stormfather (as opposed to kind of being a tape-recorder type awareness)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Just now, Stormrunner1730 said: So his cognitive shadow is still present and actively sentient in the Stormfather (as opposed to kind of being a tape-recorder type awareness)? Cognitive Shadows aren't tape-recorder type awareness anyway. It's literally your mind on its own, with a figurative "body" in the cognitive realm. It isn't that different from someone like Jasnah Elsecalling into the Cognitive Realm, except that a Cognitive Shadow can't really go back into the Physical Realm without some.. interesting hacks to the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormrunner1730 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said: Cognitive Shadows aren't tape-recorder type awareness anyway. It's literally your mind on its own, with a figurative "body" in the cognitive realm. It isn't that different from someone like Jasnah Elsecalling into the Cognitive Realm, except that a Cognitive Shadow can't really go back into the Physical Realm without some.. interesting hacks to the system. That makes sense. The Heralds are presumably one of these "hacks" (although we don't really know the exact details of their existence at this time). Also, (Mistborn Secret History spoilers) Spoiler Kelsier manifesting back in the Physical Realm would be the big example of the system being hacked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Just now, Stormrunner1730 said: Also, (Mistborn Secret History spoilers) Yes that would be the prime example. But I like explaining things outside of spoiler tags for the sake of clarity(non-specific examples are better so we can avoid special cases) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Stormrunner1730 said: So his cognitive shadow is still present and actively sentient in the Stormfather We don't know how much of Tanavast actually remains in the Stormfather. I personally don't think there's much left of him at all. The amount of investiture left over in a human mind, even a CS of a Shard (which they no longer hold) is insignificant compared to a Splinter the size of the Stormfather. Here's what I believe happened. Tanavast would need a very good reason to merge with the Stormfather if it meant being lost beneath the personality of such a massive splinter. Spren are mutable. They can be changed by the perception of living beings. The beliefs if the Knights, and later the Vorin church, aren't centered around the Shard of honor, but around the personality that wielded that power. So by merging with the Stormfather, Tanavast directed all of those thoughts about "The Almighty" at the Stormfather, and forced him to change to be more like what people believed Tanavast to be. A protector of humanity. I think the parts of Tanavast that remain are pushing the Stormfather towards actions that he may not have otherwise wished to do, such as accepting the words from Dalinar. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymeros Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) Hmmm, I don't think Tanavast is still kicking in Stormfather.......Stormfather is so powerful. That said, I do find it interesting that Stormfather has basically the same voice as Tanavast. So Stormfather sounds much like a young 30 year old dude. Edited October 3, 2017 by Nymeros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Nymeros said: That said, I do find it interesting that Stormfather has basically the same voice as Tanavast. So Stormfather sounds much like a young 30 year old dude. Wasn't Stormfathers voice described as thunder or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymeros Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: Wasn't Stormfathers voice described as thunder or something? From WoR: "I am sorry that you have to die this way." Dalinar stood still......"Who spoke?" ..... Wait . . . He recognized that voice, didn't he? It was familiar to him. Yes. He'd heard it many times. In his visions. It was the voice of the Almighty. Then later: "I am the one left behind," the voice said. It wasn't exactly as he'd heard it in the visions; this voice had a depth to it. A density. Aannnddd: "Are you the Almighty?" "I said I am not, child of Honor." "Then what are you?" I AM THAT WHICH BRINGS LIGHT AND DARKNESS. The voice took on more of a rumbling distant quality. He can switch between sounding almost exactly like Tanavast to his ALL CAPS I AM THE STORM thunder voice (which still sounds like Tanavast) Edited October 3, 2017 by Nymeros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner he/him Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Please do not discuss Oathbringer spoilers outside of the spoiler board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 18 hours ago, Calderis said: We don't know how much of Tanavast actually remains in the Stormfather. I personally don't think there's much left of him at all. While I like your idea(it's a clever bit of cheating the system, so you get points for that), I do think there is a sizable chunk of Tanavast remaining, albeit not in the way Stormrunner was thinking. From a discussion I had with Robardin last month: Quote Quote Ah, that's why I was confused - I had conflicting memories of the Stormfather's nature. The Stormfather himself describes himself as "the memory [of the Almighty], now that he is gone", which I thought was a description of his genesis, rather than a grafted-on thing or the result of a merger. I figured that was "Honor" talking, personally. A merged consciousness ought to have some shared memories, and that's a pretty apt way to describe a cognitive shadow to somebody without going too deep into details. Tanavast's personality might have been overrode by the Stormfather, but would the memories and information contained within Tanavast's expanded mind have been lost too? I feel like they wouldn't have, which could help explain some of the Stormfather's actions and words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 15 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Tanavast's personality might have been overrode by the Stormfather, but would the memories and information contained within Tanavast's expanded mind have been lost too? I feel like they wouldn't have, which could help explain some of the Stormfather's actions and words. I agree. I think the memories and knowledge of Tanavast still exist within the Stormfather. I just think that Tanavast, as an individual, is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 @The One Who Connects @Calderis I believe the same, SF inherited knowledge and Connectionts from Tanavast. SF now is more freely to act rather than before. I am just curious about how his old Knights had to live Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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