[OB] Cognitive Urithiru

[Hafrigado]

What if Urithiru's cognitive aspect has been moved and kept somewhere else?

Secret History spoilers

Spoiler

Like the Ire place

1. This could be why Shallan has problems drawing it.

2. This could also explain why it's so easy to get lost in there (I'm not sure if changing stuff in the Cognitive Realm actually affects how people think about it though). And maybe the lines that Shallan follows (remember how she didn't have a problem taking a memory of these to draw later?) are the only parts that are actually "there".

3. It also explains why Szeth said he didn't mind standing on it since it's "unhallowed". They worship the "souls of stones" right? If the souls were moved they would be fine standing on it.

4. Maybe it's why nobody's found Urithiru in a long time.

5. I'm not convinced about this one, but maybe it's how the Oathgates work. Maybe the Oathgates have parts of Urithiru's "Spren" and that lets them bring things to it's actually physical location (like what it's "Spren" wants to do).

Edited September 12, 2017 by Hafrigado

[redbishop]

1 and 2, there has been some other speculation along similar lines.

As to 3, at least, this is the best argument I have seen for Urithiru being soulcast. We saw the Shin trade valuable chickens for soulcast metals, as the earth hadn't been violated to obtain them.

4, I think is just a function of location and lack of active Oathgates.  At the end of WoR, there is various commentary that amounts to they are so far that without Shallan, they are stuck.

5 - Speculation, but I somehow got the impression that the Oathgates are a series of semi-conjoined fabrials that exchange places with others.  Of course, when you try to travel from Kholinar to the Shattered Plains while a group from the Shattered Plains is about to leave for Urithiru... hilarity ensues?  Maybe they had a schedule, and certain gates only left at certain times to prevent it...

[Hafrigado]

8 minutes ago, redbishop said:

1 and 2, there has been some other speculation along similar lines.

As to 3, at least, this is the best argument I have seen for Urithiru being soulcast. We saw the Shin trade valuable chickens for soulcast metals, as the earth hadn't been violated to obtain them.

1. & 2. Where is this? I read through the chapters 7-9 discussion and didn't see this.

3. The Shin are fine with Soulcast metal (since, as you said, they don't like regular metal because people dug through stones to get to it), but I don't think they would be okay with soulcast stone (it should still have a "soul" that should be a "soul of stone").

[asterion137]

This would explain Urithiru's "Stones Unhallowed" concept well, and would probably help with thunderclasts.

[redbishop]

2 hours ago, Hafrigado said:

1. & 2. Where is this? I read through the chapters 7-9 discussion and didn't see this.

Somewhat in there, and also in the topic about drawing Urithiru.

[Pagerunner]

I spoke about a similar concept in the reaction thread, but took a slightly different tack. I agree that Shallan's inability to draw it is relates to how the area behaves in Shadesmar. Last time her drawings got screwy, she was adding in figures from Shadesmar, so I think the Cognitive Realm does affect her drawings.

I don't take the surrealism as a byproduct, though, but as something intentional. I think, just like Urithiru is a fortress in the PR, it also needs to be defensible in the CR. When we learned how Shallan drew impossible architecture, my mind jumped to the movie Inception, and how they could manufacture 'optical illusions' and impossible architecture as defenses in the dream world. If Urithiru is like that in the CR, with architecture we can perceive bit that makes no physical sense, it could keep it from incursions by Voidspren.

I haven't thought of a mechanism for how to accomplish such distortion yet. Maybe it does involve separating aspects of an object. Maybe it's caused by a fabrials. Maybe it was set up by an ancient spren or a Shard. There could be lots of possibilities.

[Hafrigado]

15 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

I spoke about a similar concept in the reaction thread, but took a slightly different tack. I agree that Shallan's inability to draw it is relates to how the area behaves in Shadesmar. Last time her drawings got screwy, she was adding in figures from Shadesmar, so I think the Cognitive Realm does affect her drawings.

I don't take the surrealism as a byproduct, though, but as something intentional. I think, just like Urithiru is a fortress in the PR, it also needs to be defensible in the CR. When we learned how Shallan drew impossible architecture, my mind jumped to the movie Inception, and how they could manufacture 'optical illusions' and impossible architecture as defenses in the dream world. If Urithiru is like that in the CR, with architecture we can perceive bit that makes no physical sense, it could keep it from incursions by Voidspren.

I haven't thought of a mechanism for how to accomplish such distortion yet. Maybe it does involve separating aspects of an object. Maybe it's caused by a fabrials. Maybe it was set up by an ancient spren or a Shard. There could be lots of possibilities.

Oh yeah, I remember seeing this. I was probably somewhat subconsciously inspired by it. Sorry if it seems like I stole it.

[Kairos]

23 hours ago, Hafrigado said:

What if Urithiru's cognitive aspect has been moved and kept somewhere else?

Secret History spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Like the Ire place

1. This could be why Shallan has problems drawing it.

2. This could also explain why it's so easy to get lost in there (I'm not sure if changing stuff in the Cognitive Realm actually affects how people think about it though). And maybe the lines that Shallan follows (remember how she didn't have a problem taking a memory of these to draw later?) are the only parts that are actually "there".

3. It also explains why Szeth said he didn't mind standing on it since it's "unhallowed". They worship the "souls of stones" right? If the souls were moved they would be fine standing on it.

4. Maybe it's why nobody's found Urithiru in a long time.

5. I'm not convinced about this one, but maybe it's how the Oathgates work. Maybe the Oathgates have parts of Urithiru's "Spren" and that lets them bring things to it's actually physical location (like what it's "Spren" wants to do).

3 seems like the best reasoning there. I like how that works. Although, can one move cognitive aspects? I mean, I guess one can, but if you picked up the cognitive aspect of a stick in the cognitive realm, does the physical stick move or stay in one place? Is it even effected?

[Crucible of Shards]

6 minutes ago, Kairos said:

3 seems like the best reasoning there. I like how that works. Although, can one move cognitive aspects? I mean, I guess one can, but if you picked up the cognitive aspect of a stick in the cognitive realm, does the physical stick move or stay in one place? Is it even effected?

I believe something like this happened in SH and there were no dramatic consequences.

[Hafrigado]

2 hours ago, Kairos said:

3 seems like the best reasoning there. I like how that works. Although, can one move cognitive aspects? I mean, I guess one can, but if you picked up the cognitive aspect of a stick in the cognitive realm, does the physical stick move or stay in one place? Is it even effected?

Kind of Secret History Spoilers but not really

Spoiler

You can move the cognitive aspect of an object in the cognitive realm without affecting the physical aspect of it. However, if the physical aspect is moved or changed in any way, the cognitive aspect will return to the location of the physical aspect. But there are ways to use Investiture to keep the cognitive aspect in place.

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Hafrigado

[Yata]

I really doubt you could move the Cognitive of something so great as Urithuru and I don't mean for the size but rather the steel-like imprinting that thousands of mens left in it.

We know you could move Cognitive but this work mainly for object with a weak "self-identity". A Place so legenday would not accomodate you and Will revert back to his rightful status.

PS: the Fortress you refer in the OP is Probably not taken as a Cognitive Aspect from another Place too but rather physical builded in the CR.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Yata

[Hafrigado]

48 minutes ago, Yata said:

I really doubt you could move the Cognitive of something so great as Urithuru and I don't mean for the size but rather the steel-like imprinting that thousands of mens left in it.

We know you could move Cognitive but this work mainly for object with a weak "self-identity". A Place so legenday would not accomodate you and Will revert back to his rightful status.

PS: the Fortress you refer in the OP is Probably not taken as a Cognitive Aspect from another Place too but rather physical builded in the CR.

Secret History spoilers (Edit: So it seems I accidentally put the entire spoiler tag in a quote box. It won't let me get rid of the box without deleting everything inside, so please ignore this quote box.)

Quote

 

Spoiler

Quote

"The energy must keep the stones from evaporating, Kelsier thought. All the souls he’d brought with him had begun to deteriorate, but these stones were solid and unbroken. Those tiny lines of power were somehow sustaining the spirits of the stone, and perhaps as a side effect keeping people like Kelsier from passing through the walls."

-Secret History Part 5 Chapter 2

So it seems that Investiture can 

 

So, I think Shards (Honor/ Cultivation) could probably hold Urithiru still. Or maybe even some of the Orders working together could. Or it (cognitive Urithiru) could be in a place that has a lot of Investiture, like the Origin or something.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Hafrigado

[Samaldin]

49 minutes ago, Yata said:

I really doubt you could move the Cognitive of something so great as Urithuru and I don't mean for the size but rather the steel-like imprinting that thousands of mens left in it.

We know you could move Cognitive but this work mainly for object with a weak "self-identity". A Place so legenday would not accomodate you and Will revert back to his rightful status.

PS: the Fortress you refer in the OP is Probably not taken as a Cognitive Aspect from another Place too but rather physical builded in the CR.

But nobody was/is really sure where Urithiru even was/is, everyone just put it somewhere near his own kingdom. That unsureness of it´s physical location could give a strong cognitive aspect the ability to be at multiple places at once, or at least have parts of it at multiple places.

I really like this theory

Edited September 14, 2017 by Samaldin

[Hafrigado]

3 minutes ago, Samaldin said:

But nobody was/is really sure where Urithiru even was/is, everyone just put it somewhere near his own kingdom. That unsureness of it´s physical location could give a strong cognitive aspect the ability to be at multiple places at once, or at least have parts of it at multiple places.

I really like this theory

Thanks!

I didn't think of it being caused by people thinking of it being in multiple places. I like this. Hmmm.... I'm not sure if I should stick to my original "it's held in place like the Ire place" theory, or change to this.

[Yata]

29 minutes ago, Samaldin said:

But nobody was/is really sure where Urithiru even was/is, everyone just put it somewhere near his own kingdom. That unsureness of it´s physical location could give a strong cognitive aspect the ability to be at multiple places at once, or at least have parts of it at multiple places.

I really like this theory

I don't think a someone far away will impact too much on Urithuru aganist all the previous inhabitant of that place. Much more to the degree of crafting a Realmatic Effects.

By the way your point is really different from the OP's Theory between the two I think the OP's one is more likely also if I honestly I am unsure of the usefulness of this as the Cognitive's Invader would have easier life in attacking Urithuru if his Cognitive (and therefore any kind of defenses) is somewhere else.

@Hafrigado your point on SH is right, also if we are not sure if Kelsier is right in his speculation. Anyway I think it will be more smart to pump Investiture into Urithuru's CR to turn it impervious to invader rather than moving it and left the city mainly defenseless on CR and with a Cognitive somewhere else.

[hypatia]

I don't know if Urithiru is located in the CR, but there's something that drives me mad:

We seem to be on a gigantic mountain array on a gigantic tower mostly above the storms, but there's no problem with the temperature or the oxigene.

From Rock and his "airsick lowlanders" we know that there is normaly a difference in greater hights.

Wherever Urithiru is located it doesn't have a influence on the climate.

[+Spicker]

9 hours ago, hypatia said:

I don't know if Urithiru is located in the CR, but there's something that drives me mad:

We seem to be on a gigantic mountain array on a gigantic tower mostly above the storms, but there's no problem with the temperature or the oxigene.

From Rock and his "airsick lowlanders" we know that there is normaly a difference in greater hights.

Wherever Urithiru is located it doesn't have a influence on the climate.

I agree that we should be seeing bigger differences, especially with oxygen. 
But IIRC, wasn't someone surprised there were so many gardens/farm plots with the cold temperatures?
So it sounds like the area is colder. I do still feel like the difference should be more drastic. Also does it not snow up there? Do the highstorms and everstorm not result in snow when at higher elevations? I am really curious about this, even if it is not relevant. 

[Ryder]

13 minutes ago, Spicker said:

I agree that we should be seeing bigger differences, especially with oxygen. 
But IIRC, wasn't someone surprised there were so many gardens/farm plots with the cold temperatures?
So it sounds like the area is colder. I do still feel like the difference should be more drastic. Also does it not snow up there? Do the highstorms and everstorm not result in snow when at higher elevations? I am really curious about this, even if it is not relevant. 

I'm no expert, but the 0.7G gravity ought to result in the atmospheric pressure dropping off more slowly with altitude than on earth.  I'm not sure how much of an effect it would be though, but that might explain it.

[+Spicker]

1 minute ago, Ryder said:

I'm no expert, but the 0.7G gravity ought to result in the atmospheric pressure dropping off more slowly with altitude than on earth.  I'm not sure how much of an effect it would be though, but that might explain it.

This can actually be quite complicated. A lower gravity would definitely affect air pressure gradients and thus oxygen levels, but it wouldn't be the only thing. it is hard to make that conclusion without knowing the average global temperatures, atmospheric composition, the strength of the radiation belt protecting Roshar's atmosphere from solar degradation, and contributing volatile/gas sources (I hear no mention of volcanics yet, which is a major volatile source on Earth). I don't want to hijack this topic and derail it, but suffice it to say that there is just too much we don't know about how Roshar works to be able to know how the gravity will affect the atmosphere.

But to go back to what @hypatia was saying, Rock's comments imply there is a noticeable difference in oxygen levels. And, I can only imagine that Urithiru is even higher elevation than Rock's homeland (or at least the same). 
I do feel like there should be a more noticeable difference in environment between Urithiru and lower elevations we have seen so far. Because of this, I would not be surprised to find out that there is something about Urithiru that tempers environmental extremes. 

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Spicker said:

(I hear no mention of volcanics yet, which is a major volatile source on Earth)

Roshar completely lacks plate tectonics so this may not be an issue at all. 

[yulerule]

Regarding oxygen, during Kaladin's battle with Szeth, which was taking place in/above the storms, he mentioned that the air got thinner but Stormlight was sustaining him. Urithru seems high enough that most of it is above the storms when they pass, so the air should definitely be noticeably thinner.

[hypatia]

It's not only the higher elevation than the Horneater Homeland, all above is this tower with about 1000 m.

But at the wedding at night on the highest platform I had thought they must freeze to death only in their wedding dresses.

But again - nothing.

Just Elhokar warming his hands.

[+Spicker]

Just now, Calderis said:

Roshar completely lacks plate tectonics so this may not be an issue at all. 

True, but you don't necessarily need tectonics to get volcanics. Although I do agree,I get the feeling that there are not volcanoes on Roshar. This just makes me wonder what mechanism replenishes the volatiles that are loss to space and solar degradation. But this a different topic so I will try not to keep posting about. It just really has me curious!