Speculation: Who are the Voidbringers really?

[Mr_Doe]

Ok, so while this is by no means unanimous, many people agree that the Parshendi are probbaly not the Voidbringers, or at least not without being inslaved/influenced some way by Odium.  I had previously posted about who the Parshendi are in

 

 http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6053-theory-dawnsingers-parshendi/

 

So while it seems at the end of WoK that the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, it is just too convenient, not to mention that it would be giving away a pretty big plot point awfully early.

 

That said, while there are some theories floating around on who the Voidbringers are, I wanted to start a thread with a comprehensive listing of likely suspects.  Please post or leave a link to any good theories below and who knows, one of them might be right!

 

Common theories I have seen around the forums so far on the identity of the Voidbringers:

 

- Spren  that either belong to Odium or are controlled by him

- The Parshendi

[vikorr]

I don't see why it would be 'too convenient' for the Parshendi to be voidbringers...considering they are consolidated as voidbringers only near the end of WoK.

 

The back cover of WoR, the Eshonai Interlude/chapter, and Syl's view point of the new spren all seem to very strongly back Jasnah's position.

[AerionBFII]

I think they are the Parshendi, or at least for the moment i do.

As we haven't seen a decent replacement for them.

[skaa]

I guess a "Voidbringer" could be anyone who has access to Odium's Investiture (a.k.a. Voidbinding). If Odium created the Parshendi race, then their biology would naturally be tailored to that. But that doesn't mean that other races on Roshar can't use the Voids. There could be human Voidbringers (the Unmade?). Maybe even Aimian ones, though I find that unlikely.

 

I'm hoping the Parshendi, if they are Odium's race, will discover a way to use Honor's or Cultivation's Investiture in order to escape Odium.

 

Anyway, I'm not worried about the future books being too predictable because of this reveal. I'm sure Brandon has a bunch of reveals just as big as (or even bigger than) Parshendi being Voidbringers.

Edited February 19, 2014 by skaa

[Moogle]

I guess a "Voidbringer" could be anyone who has access to Odium's Investiture (a.k.a. Voidbinding).

 

While the names are suggestive, what makes you think Voidbinding is Odium's as opposed to Cultivation's? There's apparently "ten levels" of Voidbinding which sounds like Cultivation to me, and there's that matter of a woman being on the borders of the Voidbinding chart.

[QuantumHarmonix]

I don't think we have an official name for the chart on the rear end sheet. Everyone just calls it the voidbinding chart, but it could just as easily be the old magic chart or the fabrial chart.

[skaa]

While the names are suggestive, what makes you think Voidbinding is Odium's as opposed to Cultivation's? There's apparently "ten levels" of Voidbinding which sounds like Cultivation to me, and there's that matter of a woman being on the borders of the Voidbinding chart.

 

(WoR spoiler)

Jasnah says there are three types of spren: naturespren, emotionspren, and voidspren. If emotionspren are from Honor and naturespren are from Cultivation, we could probably assume that voidspren are from Odium.

[QuantumHarmonix]

(WoR spoiler)

Jasnah says there are three types of spren: naturespren, emotionspren, and voidspren. If emotionspren are from Honor and naturespren are from Cultivation, we could probably assume that voidspren are from Odium.

I thought we had a WoB that binding spren are a mix of Honor and Cultivation, and the spren argue about their parentage? However, I would agree that voidspren are from Odium.

[Moogle]

(WoR spoiler)

Jasnah says there are three types of spren: naturespren, emotionspren, and voidspren. If emotionspren are from Honor and naturespren are from Cultivation, we could probably assume that voidspren are from Odium.

 

Yes, but this doesn't mean that Voidbinding is the same thing as voidspren. Voidbinding could be a huge misnomer. The fact that there's ten levels of Voidbinding screams Cultivation at me and I just can't get around it.

 

It's also possible that Odium didn't make his own system of magic, but just corrupted Cultivation's existing one. This might explain why Honor seemed to be fighting Odium alone.

[QuantumHarmonix]

Yes, but this doesn't mean that Voidbinding is the same thing as voidspren. Voidbinding could be a huge misnomer. The fact that there's ten levels of Voidbinding screams Cultivation at me and I just can't get around it.

 

It's also possible that Odium didn't make his own system of magic, but just corrupted Cultivation's existing one. This might explain why Honor seemed to be fighting Odium alone.

And why the response on my signed book was yes.

[skaa]

I thought we had a WoB that binding spren are a mix of Honor and Cultivation, and the spren argue about their parentage?

 

You're probably talking about this:

 

Writing for Charity Signing (Verbatim)

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

 

 

 

The only way I could reconcile that and what Jasnah said is if Jasnah was only talking about non-sentient spren. In that case, the sentient spren who bond with Surgebinders are the only spren with mixed Honor and Cultivation heritage. The mixture would make sense since Honor and Cultivation were lovers. That doesn't change the fact that voidspren have a parent who is treated as "an enemy".

 

The various Voidspren, with their unseen lord—whose name changes depending on which culture we’re speaking of—evoke an enemy or antagonist.

 

 

Yes, but this doesn't mean that Voidbinding is the same thing as voidspren. Voidbinding could be a huge misnomer. The fact that there's ten levels of Voidbinding screams Cultivation at me and I just can't get around it.

 

I would appreciate it if you explain how "levels" could be so near the concept of Cultivation to you that you'd rather dismiss a very telling piece evidence as possibly being a misnomer. Sure, I can imagine how one might cultivate things at different levels, but that's not a very strong connection to me. Then again, English isn't my first language, so maybe I'm just missing something.

[Moogle]

I would appreciate it if you explain how "levels" could be so near the concept of Cultivation to you that you'd rather dismiss a very telling piece evidence as possibly being a misnomer. Sure, I can imagine how one might cultivate things at different levels, but that's not a very strong connection to me. Then again, English isn't my first language, so maybe I'm just missing something.

 

Cultivation is about growth and growing, and her Intent can be seen very clearly in Vorinism. One of the core tenets of Vorinism is that you take your Calling, and you seek to advance it and grow it.

 

From the Coppermind:

 

People are expected to choose a Calling, their greatest talent, and those who grow to be the very best at their Calling are chosen to join the Heralds in the fight to regain the Tranquiline Halls when they die. Those who are the very best at farming in life become farmers for the Heralds in death, and those who are the greatest at battle are chosen to fight beside the Heralds.

 

The most blatant link between levels of Voidbinding comes from this:

 

 

Kadash smiled. "Best not to give up so easily, bright one. Go now. But do return sometime so we can speak of your goals in regard to your Calling. It has been too long since you've Elevated."

 

Elevated. Levels. People seeking constantly to grow and advance. It screams Cultivation. And a stained glass picture of Cultivation with a safehand was linked to Vorinism. I just can't ignore these parallels. Voidbinding is so suggestively linked to Cultivation that I can't help but imagine it as being partially of her, even if Odium is part of the magic system.

 

I will eat a chocolate hat if Voidbinding is not in any way linked to Cultivation.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[skaa]

Cultivation is about growth and growing, and her Intent can be seen very clearly in Vorinism. One of the core tenets of Vorinism is that you take your Calling, and you seek to advance it and grow it.

 

From the Coppermind:

 

The most blatant link between levels of Voidbinding comes from this:

 

 

Elevated. Levels. People seeking constantly to grow and advance. It screams Cultivation. And a stained glass picture of Cultivation with a safehand was linked to Vorinism. I just can't ignore these parallels. Voidbinding is so suggestively linked to Cultivation that I can't help but imagine it as being partially of her, even if Odium is part of the magic system.

 

I will eat a chocolate hat if Voidbinding is not in any way linked to Cultivation.

 

So you see the word "level" and you already think "Levels of growth! Cultivation!" when the word "level" can be associated to many other things. Like levels of honor, or the levels of Surgebinding power after each Ideal is spoken, or the level of hatred someone might have, etc. etc.

 

But when you see the word "void" being used, even when it's already associated with Odium, you dismiss it as, eh, must be a misnomer.

 

Interesting theory about Odium corrupting Cultivation, though. I hope we'll find out in a few weeks.

Edited February 19, 2014 by skaa

[PorridgeBrick]

Cultivation is about growth and growing, and her Intent can be seen very clearly in Vorinism. One of the core tenets of Vorinism is that you take your Calling, and you seek to advance it and grow it.

 

From the Coppermind:

 

The most blatant link between levels of Voidbinding comes from this:

 

 

Elevated. Levels. People seeking constantly to grow and advance. It screams Cultivation. And a stained glass picture of Cultivation with a safehand was linked to Vorinism. I just can't ignore these parallels. Voidbinding is so suggestively linked to Cultivation that I can't help but imagine it as being partially of her, even if Odium is part of the magic system.

 

I will eat a chocolate hat if Voidbinding is not in any way linked to Cultivation.

I'll be sure to remember this oath in Kurkistan's absence.

[Moogle]

So you see the word "level" and you already think "Cultivation!" when the word "level" can be associated to many other things. Like levels of honor, or the levels of Surgebinding power after each Ideal is spoken, or the level of hatred someone might have, etc. etc.

 

Yes, I think the growth of each Radiant through the Ideals and 'levels' of Surgebinding power have an obvious link to Cultivation. The AonDor is of both Devotion and Dominion, I don't see why both Surgebinding and Voidbinding can't also be mixtures of Shards.

 

But when you see the word "void" being used, even when it's already associated with Odium, you dismiss it as, eh, must be a misnomer.

 

Do you have a WoB on this? All we have is:

Jasnah talking about voidspren and an 'unseen lord'. She's wrong about basically everything else regarding Shards (she thinks Honor was a spren!), though she may be partially right on voidspren being linked to Odium.

 

I'd also like to note that I am not dismissing it as a misnomer, not exactly. I brought it up as a possibility. I'm not certain it was a misnomer at all.

 

We don't even know if the Voidbringers are of Odium. It's entirely possible that the deal Odium had with Honor was to force Cultivation to make creatures for Odium to use against Honor to keep things fair. Greatshells seem to have a link to Cultivation, and there was a drawing of a greatshell labeled 'Voidbringer'.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[skaa]

Do you have a WoB on this? We don't even know if the Voidbringers are of Odium. It's entirely possible that the deal Odium had with Honor was to force Cultivation to make creatures for Odium to use against Honor.

 

I just gave it a few posts ago. The word "void" was very strongly connected to Odium in a WoR chapter that you must've already read. Also, Voidbringers.

 

It's okay, Moogle. If your theory is that Voidbinding is Cultivation, we can just agree to disagree. I'll even congratulate you if you turn out to be correct. I just find it weird that you seem so shocked that someone might think Voidbinding is somehow connected to Voidbringers.

And voidspren.

Edited February 19, 2014 by skaa

[PorridgeBrick]

Perhaps the three magic systems are:

Surgebinding, of both Honor and Cultivation

Voidbinding, of both Odium and Cultivation

And Fabrjal Science, of Cultivation alone.

If so, I'd be interested to see why Cultivation is part of all three magics.

Also, on the back chart: I'm pretty sure it's about fabrials. The glyphs all look like spren to me, and Cultivation is on every side. Plus a gem in middle, likely housing the spren.

[Moogle]

I just gave it a few posts ago. The word "void" was very strongly connected to Odium in a WoR chapter that you must've already read. Also, Voidbringers.

 

It's okay, Moogle. If your theory is that Voidbinding is Cultivation, we can just agree to disagree. I'll even congratulate you if you turn out to be correct. I just find it weird that you seem so shocked that someone might think Voidbinding is somehow connected to Voidbringers.

 

I'm not shocked. I think the connection is there. I'm sorry if I've poorly communicated and made it seem like I think that voidspren, Voidbinding, and Voidbringers can't possibly be linked, or that I'm overly confident Odium is not linked to the voidspren. I'm bringing up the possibility that humans on Roshar don't understand what they're talking about and that history has corrupted all the knowledge we have of magic on Roshar. A chasmfiend was labeled a Voidbringer. I think Jasnah dismissed that too quickly. Our information is spotty.

 

I just think there's a connection between Cultivation and Voidbinding, even if Voidbinding is mainly Odium's system. Cultivation is linked to the Nightwatcher, ten levels of Voidbinding, Cultivation on a purple (voidish?) chart... I think the theory has quite a lot going for it.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[skaa]

Perhaps the three magic systems are:

Surgebinding, of both Honor and Cultivation

Voidbinding, of both Odium and Cultivation

And Fabrjal Science, of Cultivation alone.

If so, I'd be interested to see why Cultivation is part of all three magics.

That's a very cool theory. Upvote!

 

I'm not shocked. I think the connection is there. I'm sorry if I've poorly communicated and made it seem like I think that voidspren, Voidbinding, and Voidbringers can't possibly be linked, or that I'm overly confident Odium is not linked to the voidspren. I'm bringing up the possibility that humans on Roshar don't understand what they're talking about and that history has corrupted all the knowledge we have of magic on Roshar. A chasmfiend was labeled a Voidbringer. I think Jasnah dismissed that too quickly. Our information is spotty.

I just think there's a connection between Cultivation and Voidbinding, even if Voidbinding is mainly Odium's system. Cultivation is linked to the Nightwatcher, ten levels of Voidbinding, Cultivation on a purple (voidish?) chart... I think the theory has quite a lot going for it.

Alright, fair enough. Would you agree that the Parshendi were created by Odium, though? Or are they also an Odium+Cultivation mixture in your opinion? In any case, the only message I was trying to convey at the beginning of this argument was that (1) Odium could Invest in humans as well, and that (2) I hope both the Parshendi and the humans will reject Odium and learn to co-exist peacefully in the end, instead of the humans having to kill all the Parshendi. Though of course we know that there'll be a lot more fighting to be done yet.

Edited February 19, 2014 by skaa

[PorridgeBrick]

I doubt the Parshendi are created by Odium: if anything, they're corrupted by him. They seem like they're the native inhabitants of Roshar, from before even Honor and maybe Cultivation came. I doubt Odium was here before those two.

[Moogle]

Alright, fair enough. Would you agree that the Parshendi were created by Odium, though? Or are they also an Odium+Cultivation mixture in your opinion?

 

WoR spoilers:

I don't know. The Parshendi seem to be blank slates, not necessarily of any one Shard. Cultivation only, maybe? They're the pinnacle of Roshar's evolution. A lot of animals on Roshar bond with spren, and the Parshendi take that one step farther in being to adaptively bond multiple spren. I doubt they're Odium's creation, but it's plausible, given that black/red are colors I could associate with Odium. Though, Cultivation and the Nightwatcher also has links to black/purple... I do believe that they're susceptible to Odium's influence via corrupted spren or voidspren, bare minimum.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle