The influence of shardic intent

[aemetha]

This is less a theory and more an observation and a curiosity.

We know that the shards are pretty heavily limited by their shardic intent. My curiosity is about how the intent influences other shards interactions with them.

Take the case of Ruin and Preservation for example. Ruin had won for a long, long time. Preservation just took a ridiculously long time to die. Is that because when interacting with Preservation Ruin is weakened when applying a final death that is contrary to Preservations intent?

Now take Ruin, when Vin kills him, he dies literally right away. No hanging around in that case. Is that because Ruins own intent accelerates his demise at the hands of Vin?

Moving more into the realm of supposition, many assume Trell to be Autonomy. Harmony despite theoretically having twice as much power as her can't even find her! She is autonomous, her intent confounds him from exerting influence over her.

I know there are contextual considerations in those scenarios. Preservation's plan, Harmony's relative ignorance about what shards are capable of. I am mostly just curious as to whether other people have had any similar thoughts, or if it seems plausible that the context is in some way a result of shardic intent in the interaction between shards rather than simply on the shard themselves. I haven't covered Honor, Cultivation or Odium here because I don't think we've seen enough of those interactions to draw conclusions, but if anyone else has ideas related to them I'd be interested to read them.

[Calderis]

I haven't thought about it before, but it's an interesting and plausible idea. 

It definitely puts this WoB in a different light if true. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#81

Quote

MILLENNIUM

Some dictionaries list two meanings for the word "odium": the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others. Do both of these apply to the Shard with that name?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes

 

[AbsentKeeper]

37 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Take the case of Ruin and Preservation for example. Ruin had won for a long, long time. Preservation just took a ridiculously long time to die. Is that because when interacting with Preservation Ruin is weakened when applying a final death that is contrary to Preservations intent?

Now take Ruin, when Vin kills him, he dies literally right away. No hanging around in that case. Is that because Ruins own intent accelerates his demise at the hands of Vin?

I always just assumed Leras's cognitive shadow only stayed around as long as it did because no one else took up the power of Preservation. Ruin, on the other hand, was taken up immediately after Ati's death.

Also, Vin and Ati both died immediately during the conflict, when both Shards were taken right after.

[Edit: I just mean that I don't think this is a good example though, I think the underlying idea that a Shard's intent effects how others act towards them, as well as how they act, is very good.]

Everything else in your post is very possible and well thought out. It seems likely from the very limited information we have about different shards interacting. It's one of those things that makes you scratch your head and say "Why didn't I think of that?"

Edited August 25, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Calderis]

Just now, Cowmanthethird said:

always just assumed Leras's cognitive shadow only stayed around as long as it did because no one else took up the power of Preservation. Ruin, on the other hand, was taken up immediately after Ati's death.

Just a nitpick, Leras didn't "die" and remain as a Cognitive Shadow for all that time. That was Leras the Shard slowly dying over millennia. 

That's why the Ire were there. The were waiting for the Shard to drop so they could pick it up. 

[AbsentKeeper]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Just a nitpick, Leras didn't "die" and remain as a Cognitive Shadow for all that time. That was Leras the Shard slowly dying over millennia. 

That's why the Ire were there. The were waiting for the Shard to drop so they could pick it up. 

Quote

QUESTION

If Kelsier's Cognitive Shadow or a Seon went to the Forests of Hell, would they be shades?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, that is the same thing. The people on that planet; their Investiture; the lack of shard means that their cognitiveshadows react differently. The ghost of Leras is the same thing too.

This WoB suggests, to me, that Ruin actually killed the Shardholder Leras somehow, leaving his Cognitive shadow in control of the Shard.

Edit: I'm not sure what implications that has as far as him dying slowly though. Perhaps it's because Ruin didn't know how to splinter a Shard, so he resorted to killing Leras, and then slowly deteriorating his shadow?

Edit again: I just realized that if the OP's theory is true, Ruin could have chosen that method over direct shattering because of Preservation's influence, even if he did know how to shatter him outright, so most of that is irrelevant.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

This WoB suggests, to me, that Ruin actually killed the Shardholder Leras somehow, leaving his Cognitive shadow in control of the Shard.

Edit: I'm not sure what implications that has as far as him dying slowly though. Perhaps it's because Ruin didn't know how to splinter a Shard, so he resorted to killing Leras, and then slowly deteriorating his shadow?

I've seen this WoB and never noted the end before. That... Bothers me. 

If Leras were wounded and dying that makes sense to me. If the shadow were in control of the Shard, shouldn't it have been nearly as limited as Kelsier was? Sure, he'd obviously be more connected to the Shard, but death should have severed his connection to the Physical in the same manner... 

I always thought that Leras himself had been mortally wounded and took forever to die. 

[AbsentKeeper]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I've seen this WoB and never noted the end before. That... Bothers me. 

If Leras were wounded and dying that makes sense to me. If the shadow were in control of the Shard, shouldn't it have been nearly as limited as Kelsier was? Sure, he'd obviously be more connected to the Shard, but death should have severed his connection to the Physical in the same manner... 

I always thought that Leras himself had been mortally wounded and took forever to die. 

I just assumed it has something to do with practice and the massive power involved in holding a Shard. The Investiture of Ambition, for example, is shattered into thousands of separate cognitive shadows, and we know that Ambition still fled after loosing that much Investiture. All of that, shoved into one shadow, should still be capable of a lot of things.

Also, I imagine the fact that he was a Shadow rather than a physical being probably contributed to how strongly he was controlled by his intent.

Edit: Another thought, inspired by the thread about why Returned need breath:

His shadow was probably reattached to his body, as evidenced by the fact that his body reforms from the mist and drops to the ground when Kelsier takes Preservation in SH.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Yata]

Leras was indeed alive until Kelsier pick up Preservation.
The ghost part was mainly for Leras' Mind-loss. What we saw of Leras is someone who lost a decent amount of his Mind. But he was a fully living Vessel until the moment we saw/heard him die (and the dropping body is a proof).

Probably if Leras wasn't holding a Shard, his mind suffering will render him completelly Mindless and the little he retains is only thanks to the expanded Mind a Vessel experience...but he was a living being for the whole time (well until he die in HoA)

Edited August 25, 2017 by Yata

[aemetha]

I also interpreted that the way @Yata has described. The body dropping to me was proof he was living and taking a really long time to die.

With regard to Vin dying quickly, I did consider that when thinking about it. I chalked it up to if she was less influenced by the shardic intent due to having recently taken it up, it may be the case that the shard exerted less influence on others in the same way. In other words, because the shard hasn't had enough time to influence Vin (she's more Vin with a bunch of power than she is Preservation) how people interact with her is similarly less influenced. Maybe I'm grasping at straws?

[+Extesian]

Khriss seems to confirm dying rather than dead. 

Quote

“Unraveling,” Khriss said. “So a slow death. Ati doesn’t know how to Splinter another Shard? Or he hasn’t the strength? Hmm . . .”

But Leras repeatedly refers to already being dead

Quote

 

...“Are you afraid?” Kelsier asked. “If Ruin gets free, are you afraid he will kill you?” “Ha,” Preservation said. “I’ve told you. He killed me long, long ago.” “I find that hard to believe.” “Why?” “Because I’m sitting here talking to you.” “And I’m talking to you. How alive are you?” A good point. “Death for one such as me is not like death for one such as you,” Preservation said, staring off again. “I was killed long ago, when I made the decision to break our promise. But this power I hold . . . it persists and it remembers. It wants to be alive itself. I have died, but some of me remains. Enough to know that . . . there were plans. . . .”

“You keep forgetting which of us is a god and which is just a poor dead shadow. Waiting to expire.”

I think this is a definitional matter. 

[Toaster Retribution]

16 hours ago, Extesian said:

But Leras repeatedly refers to already being dead

Most likely because he is a dead man walking, and he knows it.