Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) Can you spike a person for an attribute that they are spiked with? I was thinking about this and couldn't think of a reason why not, since spikes steal attributes from other people's spirit webs and hemalurgic powers are attached to the person's spirit web. If so, what would happen? Would this steal the original spike's charge or would it simply diminish it? If spiked people can be spiked for attributes where does the madness end? Edited August 4, 2017 by Faceless Mist-Wraith Grammer
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 I think the original spike would retain its charge (and begin to degrade once the body dies) and only what was originally part of that person's spirit web would be stolen.
Taliax none (name only) Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 Though it probably wouldn't be canon, I'd like to think that since Hemalurgy is end-negative, you could spike someone who's spiked, but it would take even less of the power. You would certainly be better off just killing the person, stealing their spike, and spiking yourself with it. This is an interesting idea though!
Oversleep Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 The part of the stolen Spiritweb is tied to the spike - if you remove the spike, you lose that ability granted by the spike. So no, you can't spike what's in another spike. Just like you can't rip off the arm that I got transplanted by trying to rip off my leg. 1
Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Author Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) Quote CHAOS2651 Is there a rationale to how Hemalurgic powers are distributed? I tried to look for a system, but they seem rather randomly distributed. For example, the spike which steals Allomantic powers for a particular quadrant is not always in one particular spot. BRANDON SANDERSON That is correct, it's not always in one particular spot. None of them are. I used as my model on this magic system the concept of acupuncture and pressure points. Placing a Hemalurgic spike is a very delicate and specific art. Imagine there being a different overlay on a human body, like a new network of nerves, representing lines, points, and 'veins' of the soul's spiritual makeup. What is happening with Hemalurgy, essentially, is that you're driving a spike through a specific point on a person's body and ripping off a piece of their soul. It sticks to the spike on the Spiritual Realm. Then, you place that spike on someone else in a specific place (not exactly the same place, but on the right spiritual pressure point) and 'hot wire' the spirit to give it Hemalurgy or Feruchemy. It's like you're fooling the spiritual DNA, creating a work-around. Or, in some cases, changing the spirit to look like something else, which has the immediate effect of distorting the body and transforming it into a new creature. source This supports what you were saying about how the power is tied to the spike but I don't completely understand. Quote INSERTCLEVERPHRASE () I know from reading your blog and various other comments that many of your books are in the same cosmos/universe, specifically Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, and Way of Kings. I also am pretty sure that one day you'd like to do a series that ties all the different series/books together into one super-series. So my question is, would the various magic systems work on different worlds? For example, would a Mistborn be able to use his/her abilities in the world Way of Kings is located on? BRANDON SANDERSON It depends on the magic system. They are all related to a kind of "Spiritual DNA" that one gets from their heritage on a specific planet. However, there are ways around that. (Hemalurgy, for example, 'staples' a piece of someone else's soul to your own, and creates a work around to give you access to magic you shouldn't have.) Some of the magics are more regionally tied than others. (In Elantris, you have to access the Dor, which is very regionally influenced.) The end answer is this: With in-depth knowledge of how the magics work, and their connection, one could probably get them all to work on other planets. It may take effort for some of them. source The use of words like "staple" and "hotwire" seem to give the impression that the donated attribute/power becomes part of the person's spirit web. From what I understand, the use of specific metals allows a Hemalurgy user to target certain powers for theft, and if the donee doesn't have said power in their spirit web, it can't be stolen. By similar logic if that person has the power, it is stolen when the correct metal is used. 1 hour ago, Oversleep said: So no, you can't spike what's in another spike. Just like you can't rip off the arm that I got transplanted by trying to rip off my leg. Its this part that also confuses me. To use your metaphor, if you had a right arm transplanted it now is part of your body (spirit web). If I then used "metal x" to spike you for right arms, shouldn't "metal x" allow me to target the transplanted arm? It's this part that makes me unsure about whether spiked powers can be taken with a spike, because while the attribute is tied to the original spike, it's still also part of the spiked person's spirit web and I don't know which of these would take precedence. Edited August 4, 2017 by Faceless Mist-Wraith
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 Truth be told the word staple resonates with how I understand hemalurgy to work. To me it does take a power or attribute and staple it to the spirit web of the person and it remains so long as the staple is in place. Once it has been removed the power is gone. As for transplanting it based on my understanding I'm not sure that it would work because another part of it I think is the fact that the piercing was immediate from one source to another. Though if stored in blood that may allow it.
Spoolofwhool Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 Someone I know has a book personalization which says it's possible. I'll ask him for a picture of the book and question. Quote "Can hemalurgy be used to steal hemalurgically granted powers?" "Yes, Technically." -Brandon
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 21 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: Someone I know has a book personalization which says it's possible. I'll ask him for a picture of the book and question. That "technically" makes me feel dubious about it. "technically" if you took the spike out of someone and reused it, wouldn't you be hemalurgically stealing a gifted power?
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) I am very wary of "technically". That makes it into a purely theoretical "regifting" of the power. Even if it would be possible the degradation of the power would most probably be significant. Edited August 4, 2017 by Nathrangking
Spoolofwhool Posted August 5, 2017 Posted August 5, 2017 4 hours ago, Calderis said: That "technically" makes me feel dubious about it. "technically" if you took the spike out of someone and reused it, wouldn't you be hemalurgically stealing a gifted power? No, you would be transferring a stolen power. Stealing generally refers to be when the spike is charged. 3 hours ago, Nathrangking said: I am very wary of "technically". That makes it into a purely theoretical "regifting" of the power. Even if it would be possible the degradation of the power would most probably be significant. Probably yeah. It likely exists within the realm of "theoretically possible," but practically, it would be impossible. In general, I agree with the sentiment that the charge is bound to the spike, and therefore couldn't be removed by another spike.
Spoolofwhool Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 Here's a picture of the personalization if anyone is interested. Spoilered for size. Spoiler 2
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 Hopefully it will not be attempted in the cosmere. I suspect the end result would be be unsatisfying and extremely underwhelming.
Oversleep Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 On 5.08.2017 at 3:17 AM, Spoolofwhool said: I agree with the sentiment that the charge is bound to the spike, and therefore couldn't be removed by another spike. What if... we spike the spike? 1
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 The power would probably be so degraded so as to be nearly useless.
Calderis he/him Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, Oversleep said: What if... we spike the spike? ... In the Cognitive Realm?
Oversleep Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 31 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: The power would probably be so degraded so as to be nearly useless. But technically it would have worked.
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 Yeah, but the power transferred would be negligible. While it can be done it would not be worthwhile to do.
Calderis he/him Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 22 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: Yeah, but the power transferred would be negligible. While it can be done it would not be worthwhile to do. That's not really the point of this discussion.
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 I admit that it is possible in theory world which is the point of this thread. The other things were not the main point, but they did serve to point out why realmatically it would not happen. I admit to adding the extra tidbit I beg the forgiveness of the Lord Ruler Sanderson for my infraction.
Calderis he/him Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Nathrangking said: I admit that it is possible in theory world which is the point of this thread. The other things were not the main point, but they did serve to point out why realmatically it would not happen. I admit to adding the extra tidbit I beg the forgiveness of the Lord Ruler Sanderson for my infraction. Don't apologize to Brandon. I'm fairly sure he (rightly) thinks we carry things too far. As evidence, hers something vaguely related to this thread. Note the final question and response. Quote Q: Can spren be pierced by hemalurgic spikes? Will it give some effect? A: Yes. A spren can be pierced by invested metal… Q: Could it be spiked? A: Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well. Q: Could you steal from a spren? A: Yes you could steal the investiture of a spren. Any investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren. Q: Because I thought you said hemalurgy needs moving blood. A: It needs, uh, yeah…there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form. Q: The Cognitive Realm? A: Yeah if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently. Q: So you could spike in the cognitive realm? A: Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any investiture into hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for hemalurgy. Let’s just say that. Q: We do not concern ourselves with common uses. A: Yeah I know you don’t. But yeah hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you…you’ll see when we get around to it. I don't have a source link for this one. But it's a back and forth between @Oversleep and Brandon.
Oversleep Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 10 hours ago, Calderis said: I don't have a source link for this one. But it's a back and forth between @Oversleep and Brandon. Actually there is one more person speaking there: the first question wasn't asked by me but the rest were. It comes from here.
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