Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 Here's another interesting one I've never seen. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1171#4 Quote QUESTION You mentioned in the last couple of (I don't understand the word but from the context He talk about Ars Arcanum where Khriss talk about what we call "perks") that you get interesting results when you mix type of investitures. BRANDON SANDERSON Yes QUESTION Can you mix a form of magic with a source of investiture ? Vasher uses stormlight replacing Breath or that requires (word I don't understand) like Hemalurgy or something like that ? BRANDON SANDERSON Most of them required (again the word I don't understand). Some of them are little bit easier than others. It's depends on really what you need. For istance, white sand can be charged in the presence of any Investiture right? But it's not really using the magic, is just charging it with other Investiture but you know it would be very easy for istance to use Breath to fuel...Windrunning right? Because the oath and the bond and things like that make it pretty easy. However fueling Allomancy with something else is going to be a lot harder. So it really depends on the magic. It's the sort of thing that there will be lots of science in the books dedicated to making happen in the future and you will find some of the process these work easiser than other ones. There's a lot to that WoB. Breath can fuel surgebinding "easily?" Sand can be recharged by any investiture? Thoughts please? I feel like there's a lot buried in the vagueness of this one.
Agent34 Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 I've seen people operating on any Investiture charging white sand before, usually with the example of stormlight charging it. As for the ease of using Breath I think the ease might come less from Breath and more from surgebinding since it's something a person can pick up/develop as opposed to allomancy which is something you have to be born with.
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Author Posted August 4, 2017 10 minutes ago, Agent34 said: As for the ease of using Breath I think the ease might come less from Breath and more from surgebinding since it's something a person can pick up/develop as opposed to allomancy which is something you have to be born with. I think it's more to do with the way they are fueled actually. Breath and Stormlight are both gaseous investiture, and are held. So using breath to fuel a system with a similar investiture source makes sense. Allomancy on the other hand uses the molecular structure of a metal as a key to access Investiture directly from the spiritual realm. That's got to be a lot harder to hack. 4
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 From the scientific preference point of view of combining similar sourced investiture proposed by @Calderis makes a great deal of sense.
Erandeni he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 I wonder how easely it really is, Vasher has been in roshar for some time and hasn't been able to use stormlight to Awakening.
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 They don't necessarily meld perfectly but to a certain degree they do as we know that he does use stormlight to sustain himself.
Agent34 Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 20 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: They don't necessarily meld perfectly but to a certain degree they do as we know that he does use stormlight to sustain himself. I think that's more because stormlight is easier to get and any Investiture will do.
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Author Posted August 4, 2017 16 minutes ago, Idealistic said: I wonder how easely it really is, Vasher has been in roshar for some time and hasn't been able to use stormlight to Awakening. That's why it threw me so much to read that. I'd like to know if "easy" is just a relative term here, or if there's something that makes Awakening harder to use stormlight than the other way around. 41 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: They don't necessarily meld perfectly but to a certain degree they do as we know that he does use stormlight to sustain himself. But he is not using Stormlight for Awakening. Just to feed his Divine Breath. One is using the magic, the other is just eating to survive. It's the difference between turning a pig into a functioning combustion engine, and making a ham sandwich. 1
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 Its true that it is just consumption but by the very fact that he can substitute one for the indicates an at least partial melding. And considering the fact that it can be used to power Nightblood which shows a greater level of melding.
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Author Posted August 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: Its true that it is just consumption but by the very fact that he can substitute one for the indicates an at least partial melding. And considering the fact that it can be used to power Nightblood which shows a greater level of melding. And that where I disagree. Consuming investiture is not the same as utilizing it. Just needs raw investiture to feed his Divine Breath. That saws nothing about the similarities of the system, beyond what we already know. All investiture originated from Adonalsium. Actually using Stormlight to enact a command though... That's very different. Quote ZENBOSSANOVA Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things? BRANDON SANDERSON No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to awaken things. Nightblood specifically will feed on any investiture. An allomancer burning metal could feed him. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1162#33 Quote QUESTION Nightblood feeds on Investiture, so could an Allomancer burning, say, steel, draw Nightblood and fuel it off of that? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, Nightblood would feed off that Kinetic Investiture, you could make that work. You would need to keep that portal open, and he would eat the power instead of whatever you were planning to do with it, and when you ran out of metal he’d kill you. QUESTION Would it also work with whatever you have in a Coppermind? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, theoretically that could work too. That’s a very good question, and you’re the first to ask that. Do a quick search of the words Nightblood and "feed" on theoryland and you'll see multiple WoBs come up that state "Nightblood will feed on pretty much anything." This is not an example of the systems being similar, this is evidence of how far outside of normal Nightblood is. 2
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) On 8/4/2017 at 10:55 AM, Calderis said: And that where I disagree. Consuming investiture is not the same as utilizing it. Just needs raw investiture to feed his Divine Breath. That saws nothing about the similarities of the system, beyond what we already know. All investiture originated from Adonalsium. Actually using Stormlight to enact a command though... That's very different. For me the fact that he is able to consume it at all says something about it. We have no indication that he would be able to do something similar with say Allowmancy. Just being part of the the powers that stem from the shards of adolasium may not explain it. The question of inter changability was asked: Question 2: Vasher has shown us that he can substitue his need for Breath with another investiture (presumably Stormlight). To what extent is investiture interchangeable between magic systems? Answer from brandon on reddit 2. Very interchangeable, but not always simple to apply. So in a sense we are both correct. Edited August 30, 2017 by Nathrangking 1
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Author Posted August 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: We have no indication that he would be able to do something similar with say Allowmancy. No, he wouldn't, because he'd need to be an allomancer to access the investiture at all. The mists on the other hand he could uses, because they are gaseous investiture, just like breath and Stormlight. 4 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: Answer from brandon on reddit 2. Very interchangeable, but not always simple to apply. And that's the entire point I'm making, feeding on investiture is not the application. Using Breath to fuel surgebinding is using it in application. The ability to fuel a Divine Breath with stormlight has nothing to do with the application of stormlight towards Awakening. I started this thread to discuss the magic systems being fueled by foreign investiture. Reiterating the basic facts of similarities between base investiture forms without adding some kind of extrapolation from that fact adds nothing to the conversation.
Oversleep Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 Yeah, we have known that WoB for a while. I come bearing some more WoBs: Quote Leinton Could Breath be used to power Surgebinding and what would happen to the Breath. Brandon Sanderson Theoretically yes, it can be done, and the Breath would be consumed just the same as stormlight. source Quote Leinton Can Breath be used to power Surgebinding? Brandon Sanderson They are very similar Investitures, and most of the magics can be powered with the other magics if you are capable of making that happen. Leinton What would happen to the Breath? Brandon Sanderson The Breath would be consumed in the same way that Stormlight is. A renewing resource, much like Atium is. source Quote Argent Awakening and Surgebinding, Stormlight and Breath seem really similar in some aspects-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent --except Breaths seem to stick to things better-- Brandon Sanderson They do. Argent --than Stormlight. So when you are holding the Breath it doesnt expire when you put it in something it doesnt go away. Can you tell me something about why thats happening? Brandon Sanderson Part of this is kind of inherent to the Shard and the power its coming from. I mean the power of Endowment is just going to stick, thats part of the nature of its magic. Does that make sense? But it also kind of has to do with how the ecosystems are working. For instance the Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar, it needs to be expended, it needs to get out and-- Its like evaporation, does that make sense? Argent Recycling? Not the recycling but the cycle of-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah like the cycle of water. And so just part of the way the nature of it works, it /has/ to get out, it /has/ to leak out, it has to run out. I mean it leaks even from spheres, right? Argent And when you lash things its temporary-- Brandon Sanderson Yep. And even though Szeth says that he thought Voidbringers could hold it they cant. Like it is just not the way that it works. Argent Can they just hold it better? Brandon Sanderson They can hold it better. Its not permanent. Now there are things that can do it permanently but-- [the rest of the WoB is nothing of note about black sphere] source Also, there is another WoB about Taldain Investiture: Quote Q: Would someone with enough knowledge be able to use Autonomy’s investiture if Taldain’s star could be seen from his world? A: Ok so I’m on a world and I see Taldain’s star, are you asking if someone could use the investiture? Oh ok I see. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. That’s good! You stumped me. I haven’t gotten that question before. I would say yes, if the light particles are reaching you. I mean technically you could use the light from one of those stars to power a solar sail so… The lichen on the sand uses Invesiture in it's lifecycle - when it gets water it releases it and reproduces. So I doubt there's much keying in to the lichen, the restriction - if there is any - is on being able to form a temporary Connection with the lichen. Sand Masters can do that to feed the lichen water from their bodies and when it releases Investiture, they can use it to manipulate the sand. 2
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Author Posted August 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, Oversleep said: The lichen on the sand uses Invesiture in it's lifecycle - when it gets water it releases it and reproduces. So I doubt there's much keying in to the lichen, the restriction - if there is any - is on being able to form a temporary Connection with the lichen. Sand Masters can do that to feed the lichen water from their bodies and when it releases Investiture, they can use it to manipulate the sand. Yeah, I was thinking about this and I wonder if this is inherent to Autonomy. Her magic system has developed, but the internal structure is reliant on the parts and not her investiture, freeing autonomic magic from Autonomy itself. It's a cool concept that I hadn't previously considered, but I really like it.
Stark he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) I would guess that the recharge rate on the sand (or lichen in the sand) would be really slow though, with the light so diffused over the distance between solar systems - it may be so slow as to make using white sand charged by starlight impractical. I also notice that in all the quoted WOBs about awakening with Stormlight, Brandon never says that it is impossible to awaken with Stormlight, just that Vasher has not figured out how to do it. Does anyone have a WOB where he outright says whether or not it is possible to Awaken with Stormlight? 1 hour ago, Calderis said: ZENBOSSANOVA Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things? BRANDON SANDERSON No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to awaken things. Vasher can't - but that does not state that no one can. And seeing as Breath sticks better than Stormlight - if you use Surge-bind with Breath, does that create permanent lashings? Can you take the breath back to end the lashings like with Awakened constructs? If Awakening with Stormlight is possible, and Stormlight leaks out of everything, does it create temporary contructs? Would attaching Gems to the constructs make them last longer (like batteries, and shardplate)? Edit: Charging white sand: Can't do it via Highstorm, I don't think, unless it is sealed in a clear, water-tight container, as water seems to neutralize the charge and darken the sand - so leaving in it an invested hurricane to charge seems inefficient... Edited August 4, 2017 by Stark New Thought
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Author Posted August 4, 2017 @Stark what all of these WoBs together are implying is that it's theoretically possible to fuel any magic with any investiture. The difficulty lies in figuring out how. He never says any of it is impossible, just varying degrees of difficulty. The thing I'd previously missed about the sand isn't that it can be charged by starlight from however many light-years off, but that it could be charged by Stormlight, or the mists, or giving it breath, or a Shardpool, or anything really. All a Sand master needs to do to master elsewhere, is to bring sand with him. It's a massive limiting factor as sand isn't exactly light, but it can be done.
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 It can be inferred as you pointed out that this can be explained by the fact that the shards may inherently desire to reconnect and reform to reconstitute adolasium.
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Author Posted August 4, 2017 31 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: It can be inferred as you pointed out that this can be explained by the fact that the shards may inherently desire to reconnect and reform to reconstitute adolasium. What?
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 You had stated earlier 2 hours ago, Calderis said: That says nothing about the similarities of the system, beyond what we already know. All investiture originated from Adonalsium. Yes they did I took it further by postulating the reason thatany magic can work with any investiture.
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Author Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: You had stated earlier Yes they did I took it further by postulating the reason thatany magic can work with any investiture. There's a very big jump between saying that they are all made of the same stuff, and that they want to be remade. Edit: if they were eager to be recombinant, I don't believe the hacks would be necessary. They could simply intermingle freely. The pressure from the intents of the Shards would also then draw the Shards together more often. And Odium wouldn't be so intent on shattering shards. He'd just pick them up. Edited August 4, 2017 by Calderis
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 The thing is that 1) Odium's main intent combined with the possibly evil character of Rayse might override that desire which I think might only be subconscious in nature. 2) Tha leads me to the fact that it being what it is would cause them to not be as easy to combine. This desire being subconscious would prevent random and free intermingling. That is why I think that hacks would be necessary. My source is the SH: Kelsier observes in Chapter 8 of Hero that the powers of Ruin and Preservation seemed to belong together despite the fact that they are opposites. Now you can say two sides of the same coin,but shouldn't they cancel. When thrown against each other they nullify each other yet here they combine. I know the theory and proof are tenuous at best, but it is still a valid theory until disproven beyond a reasonable doubt as they say.
Calderis he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Author Posted August 4, 2017 @Nathrangking the intent is not subconscious. It is an inherent attribute of the Shard. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1011#3 Quote BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED) Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist. Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person. The power of that intent is so infused into the power that it cannot be seen for purposes that run contrary to it. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#27 Quote TYRAN AMIROS (16 OCTOBER 2008) What happened to Kwaan? I was half expecting to see him amongst the kandra First Generation. BRANDON SANDERSON (16 OCTOBER 2008) Kwaan went into hiding, and he was eventually discovered and executed by Rashek. He wasn't among the First Generation, though he would have been if he hadn't turned against Rashek. Rashek kept the plate, however, just as he kept Alendi's logbook. Partially because even then, Rashek was going a little mad, but partially because of the reminders about his old life they contained. VEGASDEV (17 OCTOBER) I'm assuming you meant Alendi hunted him down because he turned against Alendi. Or did Kwaan also turn against Rashek? BRANDON SANDERSON No, I meant that he turned against Rashek. Remember, the members of the First Generation were offered immortality in exchange for their Hemalurgy. They had to make this choice for all of the world's Feruchemists. Because his uncle had been the one who gave Rashek the chance to become the Lord Ruler in the first place, Rashek blessed him and included him in the decision. (Speaking directly into his mind along with the others during Rashek's moment of ascension.) Kwaan was the only one who turned down this offer, calling it a betrayal of who they were as a people. Rashek could have just made him one anyway, but in a moment of anger, he tried to destroy Kwaan—which he couldn't do, not with Preservation's power. As the other Feruchemists changed, Kwaan remained the same. Rashek eventually hunted him down and killed him.
Nathrangking he/him Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 That I understand, but as a whole it is not impossible that original "intent of adolasium" as it were would desire to be reconstituted and would work in a very micro way to acheive that goal with odium of course working against that and the other shards being somewhat resistant.
Emerald101 he/him Posted August 5, 2017 Posted August 5, 2017 One of the interesting things about breaths is that they come in discreet packages of roughly the same size. I wonder if a lashing performed with breath as fuel would consume an uneven number of breaths (leaving the user with a partial breath) or if it would round up to the nearest breath.
Calderis he/him Posted August 5, 2017 Author Posted August 5, 2017 26 minutes ago, Emerald101 said: One of the interesting things about breaths is that they come in discreet packages of roughly the same size. I wonder if a lashing performed with breath as fuel would consume an uneven number of breaths (leaving the user with a partial breath) or if it would round up to the nearest breath. The heightening threshold numbers are averages, because breaths vary in strength. I think a "partial breath" is likely, as even a single breath isn't consistent
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