Ciridae Posted July 9, 2017 Report Share Posted July 9, 2017 I've had some lingering questions about how listeners change forms. We know they go into the highstorms, have a certain mindset, hope to attract the right spren, when the point of transformation comes they absorb the spren and finally transform. But what allows them to undergo this rapid change to their anatomy? How does the spren factor into the transformation? The spren relate not only to the physical forms of the parshendi, but they also give typical mindsets to go along with the forms. Warform is more obedient, workform avoids confrontation and finds it hard to commit acts of violence, and listeners in mateform are easily distracted. So different forms are not only physically different, but cognitively distinct. I think that the transformation is caused by stormlight healing, like we see with radiants. The spren the listener bonds with is absorbed and forms a part of their spiritweb until it is ejected and replaced with a different spren. The change in the spiritweb causes a change in how the listener views themself. Because they have absorbed the spren and see themselves differently, the stormlight healing tries to match their physical body to their newly changed spiritweb, resulting in a new form. The spren is basically a packet of information for how the body, mind and spirit manifest themself, by providing a specialized form, mindset, new rhythms and sometimes magical abilities. At the point of transformation that Eshonai mentions, the listeners must for some reason gain access to the abundant stormlight around them. The transformation is obviously magical and the fuel has to come from somewhere. I think it's safe to say stormlight is the only logical option. The biggest mystery to me is the point of transformation. Listeners don't usually have access to kinetic investiture (even if they can hold on to spren for a seemingly indefinite amount of time). So what causes them to be able to absorb stormlight? My first thought was that someone like the stormfather briefly grants them access. Maybe the spren they are bonding in that moment allows them to absorb stormlight. Or maybe it's something inherent to all listeners. Maybe that's how parshmen were created, by somehow breaking the listener's ability to arrive at the point of transformation. I also suspect that most megafauna like chasmfiends use a similar process when pupating. I apologize if these ideas have been discussed already, let me know what you think 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 9, 2017 Report Share Posted July 9, 2017 4 hours ago, Ciridae said: I also suspect that most megafauna like chasmfiends use a similar process when pupating. This is the answer, I believe. Parshendi are native to Roshar. The Spren bond they have is an evolved form of the bonds of the native species. So while they don't normally have access to investiture like we think of with the Knights, the transformation process grants a natural access to investiture to fuel the transformation, much like you described it. Furthermore, I think it likely that they do use investiture normally, albeit in low enough subconscious ways it's not something any of them are aware of. Greatshells make use of their Spren bonds for a continuous use of the surge of Gravitation which allows them to grow so large. I think it's likely that Listener forms use something similar, even if the Listeners themselves are unaware of it. The jumping ability of Warform may be in part utilizing Gravitation, or it's natural armor could be enhanced through Tension/Cohesion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted July 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 16 hours ago, Calderis said: I think it's likely that Listener forms use something similar, even if the Listeners themselves are unaware of it. The jumping ability of Warform may be in part utilizing Gravitation, or it's natural armor could be enhanced through Tension/Cohesion. That would make a lot of sense, new head canon. Plus: Quote QUESTION [Question about Chasmfiends, but I think we know stuff about already.] Thunderclasts have chasmfiend… they’re part of the in-world inspiration for thunderclasts [...] BRANDON SANDERSON [Chasmfiends are] an introduction of gemhearts and things like this, and the ability of certain creatures to hold investiture permanently, as Szeth says, rather than it seeping away like it does to humans. Source Oathbringer prologue spoiler: Spoiler Parshendi have gemhearts too, so it stands to reason that they can hold investiture permanently too. We see a dark gemheart in Mraize's trophy room so unless they hold a different form of investiture than stormlight, gemhearts don't hold investiture permanently outside of a body. I'm almost convinced that fabrials and gemheart creatures use the same magic system, the last besides surge- and voidbinding. About the point of transformation, I would love to know if chasmfiends or other greatshells experience something similar. Wasn't it mentioned in the books that they prefer to crawl onto plateaus just before highstorms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 11 hours ago, Ciridae said: About the point of transformation, I would love to know if Chasmfiends or other Greatshells experience something similar. Wasn't it mentioned in the books that they prefer to crawl onto plateaus just before Highstorms? They go through pupation. It's not what you're thinking however. We know what they turn into, but not what they start out as. Quote Question Are the Chasmfiends that we have seen the last stage of their life-cycle? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you have seen the last stage of their lifestyle. You’ve seen the second and third stages mostly. Question Are you counting the cocoons? Brandon Sanderson Cocoons are a stage, yes. Unknown Creature, Pupate, Chasmfiend. Chulls too, and they aren't the only ones. Larkin, Unknown(likely pupation), Lanceryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted July 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said: Unknown Creature, Pupate, Chasmfiend. Chulls too, and they aren't the only ones. Larkin, Unknown(likely pupation), Lanceryn. Oh I was aware, I was more wondering if they used some form of stormlight-healing that causes a rapid change to their anatomy while they are inside the cocoon, but thanks for the WoBs nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Ciridae said: Oh I was aware, I was more wondering if they used some form of stormlight-healing that causes a rapid change to their anatomy while they are inside the cocoon, but thanks for the WoBs nonetheless. Oh you meant "something similar" in regards to Parshendi transformation. Derp.. I'm not even sure what I mistook you for saying anymore. I'd think they have to do a rapid change to pupate within a single Highstorm, unless they stay in those cocoons for longer than we've assumed. Edited July 10, 2017 by The One Who Connects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian he/him Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 @Ciridae I really like your idea of the realmatics of Parshendi transformation. The way I see it, the question as it relates to the normal symbiotic bonds of Roshar is this – is a Parshendi bond with a spren more like the symbiotic bond that is natural to Roshar, or more like the fabrial bond in which a spren is trapped so the imprisoner can use the spren’s powers for themselves. We know that ‘normal’ Roshar bonds are symbiotic, ie the spren does it voluntarily because it is getting something in return. Quote Q: How tall would the average chasmfiend be, and how much would they weigh? On a scale from ant to Godzilla. A: So, they're big. Not godzilla big, but larger than elephant big. On average, they're going to loom over you at about twenty feet high, which is deceptive to their size, as they're longer than tall. And some do get even bigger. Weight, though, is a tricky matter with greatshells on Roshar. The symbiosis with spren is how they get around crushing themselves. (Even on a lower gravity planet like Roshar.) Q: Symbiosis is a two way relationship. The chasmfiends get a huge benefit, the ability to not immediately die. So what do the spren get out of it? A: Yes, the symbiosis is a two-way relationship. You'll find out more in future books, but suffice it to say, the spren DO get something out of the deal. (At least, when it happens naturally.) Q: Are you saying that a chasmfiend and whatever spren it binds with can be forced to bond? A: Not in relation to chasmfiends. Go read up on fabrials. Q: Fabrials are exactly why I asked this question, I thought there might be a way to, I don't know, shove a spren inside a living greatshell's gemheart or something A: No, that's not what I was implying. So my instinct is that Parshendi bonds are not of the fabrial-type, where the Parshendi trap the spren, but is of the natural Roshar type, where it’s symbiotic and, just like with soulcasting, the spren needs investiture that only the fauna can provide. As for your idea on realmatics, I personally think that a symbiotic bond with a non-sapient spren does not bind the two creatures in the spiritual realm. I think it’s confined to the physical and cognitive realms, where the spren gives the fauna a direct physical realm benefit in exchange for stormlight (which benefits spren in the cognitive realm…somehow (but we see it with soulcasting). I think a Nahel bond is different, that is where the spren has to fill an existing gap in the spiritweb and widen it, to enable the person to directly employ the relevant surges. But I think with chasmfiends and parshendi, it’s more limited. All of that, of course, is speculation based on my general ideas about Rosharan realmatics. Feel free to pick apart. I acknowledge you definitely could be right, and I don’t think there’s anything definitive yet. And on a separate note, here is a useful WoB about the chasmfiends, their gemhearts, their spren and their ability/need to absorb stormlight. Quote Q: I was wondering if the Chasmfiends have... like their own Gemhearts... A: Yes. Q: It's probably not a coincidence that emeralds can hold most of the Stormlight. So do Chasmfiends take energy from Stormlight? The constiply it with eating so... A: Yes Yes. It is actually most beneficial during their metamorphisis, the chrysalis is not as big as they get. They depend on the Stormlight and they depend on the Spren that they are bonded to to keep them from crushing themselves. Chasmfiends couldn't exist offworld for multiple reasons. Q: I'm guessing that for Chasmfiends the absorption of Stormlight must be different due to the thickness (...) A: Good, well done. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, FiveLate said: Spoiler Parshendi have gemhearts too, so it stands to reason that they can hold investiture permanently too. What? Where did I miss this? You didn't. It's a line from Jofwu's transcript of the Oathbringer Prologue reading, which has a few audio unclear question marks/bolded words for the sentence in question. Spoiler “Look closely,” King Gavilar said. “Look deep into it. Can you see what’s moving inside? That’s a spren. That’s how the device works.” Captive, like in a gemheart, she thought, attuning awe. They built a device to mimic how they applied their forms. [They invested? so much of their limitations?]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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