The interpretation of the Oaths

[FrogKnight]

10 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Amaram does realize that his actions concerning Desolations are wrong.

That's not what I meant. Its not that he is wrong about the way his going about it but the prize itself is a delusion. I mean he still believes that honor is still alive and that light eyes are above dark eyes (or at least closer to honor):

"The man was enormous, as tall as Amaram but built like a wall. The dark brown skin had surprised him the first time he’d seen the man—Amaram had, somewhat foolishly, expected that all of the Heralds would look Alethi. The Herald’s dark eyes were, of course, some kind of disguise."

Unless Amaram comes to realize that everything he did was for nothing and may have possibly caused the destruction of the world, he will never become a Radiant.

[FrogKnight]

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

@FrogKnight Unless that secret undermines his goals I don't see why that would matter.

That's exactly it. I believe that the secret does indeed undermine his goals.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 minute ago, FrogKnight said:

That's not what I meant. Its not that he is wrong about the way his going about it but the prize itself is a delusion. I mean he still believes that honor is still alive and that light eyes are above dark eyes (or at least closer to honor):

"The man was enormous, as tall as Amaram but built like a wall. The dark brown skin had surprised him the first time he’d seen the man—Amaram had, somewhat foolishly, expected that all of the Heralds would look Alethi. The Herald’s dark eyes were, of course, some kind of disguise."

Unless Amaram comes to realize that everything he did was for nothing and may have possibly caused the destruction of the world, he will never become a Radiant.

I don't see why he wouldn't be a Radiant. He is steadfast in his beliefs, however wrong they may be. The spren looks for people with certain qualities, and it might be that he would fit for some of them. Just because he is wrong about Honor, and about Darkeyes, doesn't mean that he can't form a Nahel bond.

In fact, Amaram might make a good Dustbringer. He is somewhat of a zealot, which means that he would harbor great hatred against the Voidbringers. He feels like someone who would be obedient against the church and Heralds. We don't know much about his bravery though, but bravery can come in different shapes or forms. In fact, one could say that he made a brave choice in bringing forth Desolations to restore power to the church. Great risks, great rewards. 

[Calderis he/him]

My reason for thinking Amaram won't be a Radiant are because of the way he views his own actions. 

Taravangian regrets the necessity his actions, and would rather not have to do them, but accepts the necessity and feels the need to act in the name of the greater good, no matter what he has to do to achieve it. 

Amaram on the other hand believes in Vorinism. He fully believes that the Heralds won, and the desolations ended. He is not doing what he thinks is necessary. He, and the sons of Honor, are voluntarily going to kill millions to bring back the Heralds and put the devotaries back in power. 

Gavilar started the Sons, and we know he was a member of the Sons, but his goal was unity, and there's nothing more guaranteed to unify a country or world than an outside threat, but Amaram? Amaram believes that what he is doing is wrong. You see it in his interactions with Sadeas. You see it in the moment of shame when Kaladin calls him a fraud after killing his spearman. 

Taravangian believes what he is doing is the right course of action. Gavilar believed the same. Amaram pursuing forward the face that he thinks is Honorable and just and willing goes against that, while feeling shame because of it. 

If he did the things he did, and believed they were right, and not just a way to restore the Vorin religion despite going against its own tenants, I wouldn't have a problem with him being a Radiant. But he willing breaks his own personal code, something that a spren will not accept in the person they bond. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

54 minutes ago, Calderis said:

My reason for thinking Amaram won't be a Radiant are because of the way he views his own actions. 

Taravangian regrets the necessity his actions, and would rather not have to do them, but accepts the necessity and feels the need to act in the name of the greater good, no matter what he has to do to achieve it. 

Amaram on the other hand believes in Vorinism. He fully believes that the Heralds won, and the desolations ended. He is not doing what he thinks is necessary. He, and the sons of Honor, are voluntarily going to kill millions to bring back the Heralds and put the devotaries back in power. 

Gavilar started the Sons, and we know he was a member of the Sons, but his goal was unity, and there's nothing more guaranteed to unify a country or world than an outside threat, but Amaram? Amaram believes that what he is doing is wrong. You see it in his interactions with Sadeas. You see it in the moment of shame when Kaladin calls him a fraud after killing his spearman. 

Taravangian believes what he is doing is the right course of action. Gavilar believed the same. Amaram pursuing forward the face that he thinks is Honorable and just and willing goes against that, while feeling shame because of it. 

If he did the things he did, and believed they were right, and not just a way to restore the Vorin religion despite going against its own tenants, I wouldn't have a problem with him being a Radiant. But he willing breaks his own personal code, something that a spren will not accept in the person they bond. 

He is obviously convinced that they need to be done, however. He dislikes murdering spearmen, he dislikes lying, he dislikes losing Dalinars friendship. But he suffers through it all because he believes in the cause. Yes, Amaram knows that his facade is honorable, and how he should behave, and that his secret actions are despicable. It is the same with Taravangian. He never lets anyone know about the fact that he orchestrates wars, or murders people in his basement. He pretends to be a loveable old man, and is ashamed of the fact that he isn´t. The difference is, as you say, that Taravangian does what he does because he finds it absolutely necessary. 

However, I dont think that Amaram is going against his code. He puts up a facade that he knows that others will like, but I do believe that he thinks that bringing back the Desolations, and the Heralds, are the right thing to do, just like Mr. T thinks that murdering sick people is right. Amaram is controlled by his religion, and probably thinks that it is best for everyone if they obey the Almighty and show him proper respect, and allows him, and the Heralds, to run things again. I doubt Amaram does things for selfish reasons. His reasons are probably "for the good of all" just like Taravangians. The difference is that it is easier to understand the "save the world from cataclysm" thing Taravangian has going on, than it is understanding the "helping everyone by giving the Almighty control over society" idea that Amaram has, because that is probably a pretty outlandish concept for a lot of people.

I hope this all made some sort of sense.

[FrogKnight]

Toaster Retribution and Calderis, I don't think you guys are going to convince each other to either of your sides haha.

But I am siding with Calderis on this. As he mentioned, Amaram knows that he is doing what he shouldn't, at least subconsciously which would stop him from becoming a Radiant. That's exactly what happened with Kaladin and losing his powers. Even though he convinced himself that what he was doing was right when assisting in elhokar's assassination, deep down he knew it was wrong. I believe Amaram is in a similar situation where he has also convinced himself that what he is doing is right but deep down, he knows its wrong.

[Ammanas]

So I will weigh in on Amaram. I believe, that he knows that his actions stem from selfish desires. He wants to do honorable things, but is not afraid to use it as a excuse for his own selfish goals. I base this off the end of part three (WoK): Kaladin says, "It's not about Alethkar! It's about you! Storm it, you're supposed to be better than the others!"...Amaram looked guilty suddenly, as if he knew what Kaladin said was true.

 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Ammanas

[Calderis he/him]

55 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I hope this all made some sort of sense.

Perfect sense. I don't fault your reasoning, and I'll agree to disagree. 

My issue with Amaram is purely in the emotions he betrays at times. 

Taravangian is haunted by his actions yes, he shows regret, but it is regret for the necessity of his actions. 

Amaram on the other hand shows shame. He doesn't just feel that he's doing unpleasant things, his emotions say that he believes what he is doing is wrong. 

That's the difference to me. Taravangian hates that it needs to be done, Amaram just hates himself. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I think we can agree to disagree, and thus wait and see. If we get some more Amaram POVs in Oathbringer, we can probably discuss this further.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think we can agree to disagree, and thus wait and see. If we get some more Amaram POVs in Oathbringer, we can probably discuss this further.

Either way, I'm sure Brandon will make us enjoy hating the slimy cremling

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Either way, I'm sure Brandon will make us enjoy hating the slimy cremling

Well, confession time, I like Amaram (along with Nalan, Mraize and Mr. T). 

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Well, confession time, I like Amaram (along with Nalan, Mraize and Mr. T). 

I like them all as characters. I genuinely like Mraize and Taravangian. Nale... Nale is a mentally broken man who I pity. Amaram... Is a hypocrite of the worst kind and I hate him. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Calderis

[aemetha he/him]

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

But he willing breaks his own personal code, something that a spren will not accept in the person they bond. 

Not an honorspren or a highspren perhaps. From what we've seen of voidbringers cultivationspren they'd probably just complain that it's difficult to garden if they can't tell which way is north, and cryptics seem to rather embrace that sort of contradiction. One could actually make an argument that it's not possible for a lightweaver to progress without some kind of lie to oneself that must be resolved.

[Ciridae]

2 hours ago, aemetha said:

One could actually make an argument that it's not possible for a lightweaver to progress without some kind of lie to oneself that must be resolved.

I could see a change of heart in Amaram once he sees what he has done first hand. Perhaps once he learns that his god is dead and the heralds aren't who he thought they were anymore and that humanity has to face the desolation alone. If he accepts his mistakes and does some serious introspection facing each of his misdeeds as a truth and actively trying to better himself, I could see him becoming a lightweaver.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

I like them all as characters. I genuinely like Mraize and Taravangian. Nale... Nale is a mentally broken man who I pity. Amaram... Is a hypocrite of the worst kind and I hate him. 

I genuinely like them all except maybe Nale, whom I might genuinely like as well, depending on where his story goes. 

[Calderis he/him]

5 hours ago, aemetha said:

Not an honorspren or a highspren perhaps. From what we've seen of voidbringers cultivationspren they'd probably just complain that it's difficult to garden if they can't tell which way is north, and cryptics seem to rather embrace that sort of contradiction. One could actually make an argument that it's not possible for a lightweaver to progress without some kind of lie to oneself that must be resolved.

The Lightweavers are the only order not to have oaths to follow. If Lift were to go back on hers, Wyndel would die just like just like any other spren. 

The Lightweavers... By patterns own words Cryptics died in the Recreance. So while they are the most permissive of the Orders they would require more and more self honesty as you progress. By the end of it, I doubt Shallan will be able to continue her habits of self deception. 

The in world Words of Radiance (in the story of Melishi) tells us that they were extremely self aware. That wasn't a coincidence in the way they were chosen. It's a requirement of their progression. 

[aemetha he/him]

@Calderis I can see it working that way. I think that Amaram not having followed his own code so far however doesn't disqualify him from future service as a radiant, and particularly as a lightweaver. Learning and coming to accept the error of his ways is uniquely qualifying as a lightweaver. I think his situation can also be very well applied to learning and saying the first oath in an interpretation that emphasises the lightweavers self awareness.

Quote

Life before death

Because he learns the cost in human lives of his plan should never have been paid.

Quote

Strength before weakness.

Because he learns that following his code is more important than giving in to the convenience of expediency.

Quote

Journey before destination.

Because he's still here and he's still fighting. He strayed from the true path, but the true path is still there and he can still walk it if he chooses it.

Basically, he can ascribe meaningful intent to the first oath. Of all the more minor characters described in the books, his story is probably easiest to relate back to the first oath.

Or he'll just become a dustbringer and burn the world down to kill who needs killing ;). Is it stated what kind of orders blade Amaram wields? The flames in the description of it certainly sound dustbringerish. Maybe it won't be Adolin who awakens a blade at all, maybe it will be Amaram? Or maybe Adolin will awaken his, and Amaram will learn of it and replicate the feat? Or maybe... actually, maybe I should stop here before I write the books myself and get sued for copyright infringement by Brandon.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, aemetha said:

@Calderis I can see it working that way. I think that Amaram not having followed his own code so far however doesn't disqualify him from future service as a radiant, and particularly as a lightweaver. Learning and coming to accept the error of his ways is uniquely qualifying as a lightweaver. I think his situation can also be very well applied to learning and saying the first oath in an interpretation that emphasises the lightweavers self awareness.

We really have to stop thinking of every single individual having lied to himself as a potential Lightweaver. Amaram doesn't nearly come close to exhibiting qualities required to draft powerful lies which would be strong enough to influence the life of others. There is nothing creative about him (and by creative I don't necessarily mean artistically oriented). He follows the Sons of Honors potentially because he strongly believes in his religion and sees it as necessary. He might dislike having to kill Kaladin's squad, but he does it nonetheless. 

If we compare him to Shallan, always trying to find stronger lies to influence the life of others, then he doesn't even come close to having similar behavior. Just because he may not like what he believes he has to do doesn't mean he will go onto a path of self-awareness thus becoming a lightweaver.

Sorry, I don't see it.

2 hours ago, aemetha said:

Or he'll just become a dustbringer and burn the world down to kill who needs killing ;). Is it stated what kind of orders blade Amaram wields? The flames in the description of it certainly sound dustbringerish. Maybe it won't be Adolin who awakens a blade at all, maybe it will be Amaram? Or maybe Adolin will awaken his, and Amaram will learn of it and replicate the feat? Or maybe... actually, maybe I should stop here before I write the books myself and get sued for copyright infringement by Brandon.

Again, this works not with the character we have seen so far. Amaram doesn't seem the type wanting to burn the world out of people he thinks needs killing. He doesn't even think in terms of people needing killing or not: he thinks of how to advance his cause. He will kill those who opposes him, no matter if it is intentional or not. He will kill innocents without looking twice: he may hate it, but he will do it. 

And quite frankly, if Amaram awakes his Blade and not Adolin, I will through my book onto the wall in raw anger. There is absolutely no rational for Amaram, of all people, to revive his Blade. Also, there is no methods: even if Adolin succeeds, I doubt he will "teach" others how to do it because I don't think it can be taught, especially since I think he may need to die to do it.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

6 minutes ago, maxal said:

We really have to stop thinking of every single individual having lied to himself as a potential Lightweaver. Amaram doesn't nearly come close to exhibiting qualities required to draft powerful lies which would be strong enough to influence the life of others. There is nothing creative about him (and by creative I don't necessarily mean artistically oriented). He follows the Sons of Honors potentially because he strongly believes in his religion and sees it as necessary. He might dislike having to kill Kaladin's squad, but he does it nonetheless. 

If we compare him to Shallan, always trying to find stronger lies to influence the life of others, then he doesn't even come close to having similar behavior. Just because he may not like what he believes he has to do doesn't mean he will go onto a path of self-awareness thus becoming a lightweaver.

Lightweavers could probably lie in different ways though. They wont all be like Shallan. Amaram has in fact crafted the most convincing lie in the story so far: the one about his own honor. He fooled loads of people for years, and made everyone think that he was the knight in a shining armor. When it comes to lies, Amaram is the guy to ask. 

That said, he might lack the creativity (the Coppermind says he collects flutes, so maybe he is a secret musician?). I would, as I stated, like to see him as a Dustbringer, some sort of Vorin templar. That would be really cool. But I can see the Lightweaving route being taken. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Lightweavers could probably lie in different ways though. They wont all be like Shallan. Amaram has in fact crafted the most convincing lie in the story so far: the one about his own honor. He fooled loads of people for years, and made everyone think that he was the knight in a shining armor. When it comes to lies, Amaram is the guy to ask. 

That said, he might lack the creativity (the Coppermind says he collects flutes, so maybe he is a secret musician?). I would, as I stated, like to see him as a Dustbringer, some sort of Vorin templar. That would be really cool. But I can see the Lightweaving route being taken. 

I don't see it as lies, so to speak, but as him being careful a few given truths aren't widely known. Also, the fact he spent years outside the Alethi court did help him: you can't be seen for dishonorable if you aren't there. You can't make mistakes if there is nobody witnessing you each time you do make one.

While I agree not all Lightweavers will be akin to Shallan, I do draw an important line in between characters taking actions for the benefit of others and those having their own self as their main source of conflicts. So far, only the later group has been made Radiants which make me doubt those who'll misuse their powers to increment their personal glory wouldn't get pass the first screening.

I personally disagree with Amaram as a Radiant. I can see villains such as Taravangian, but not Amaram: to selfish, to looking down onto his own person, to prone to take immoral actions for his own benefit. All Radiants have been selfish, at times, but all have also taken direct actions in the name of others: all of them. It is one of the main reasons I can't see Amaram or Elhokar as Radiants: they do not care about others, not in the slightest way.

Edited August 6, 2017 by maxal

[aemetha he/him]

@maxal we may have to agree to disagree. The main thrust of my point isn't really that Amaram is a good candidate for a radiant, lightweaver or otherwise. My point is that in terms of back stories he has perhaps good reason to modify his behaviour become a good candidate for a radiant.

The point that we have to stop thinking that everyone who lies to themselves would be a good lightweaver is well made, but I would also add that we have to stop basing our assumptions about the attitudes of all the orders on windrunners and Syl. Two orders we haven't seen at all have been described in ways that are a significant departure from what honorspren would approve of, and Brandon has said himself that there were disagreements between orders.

[scifan he/him]

Do we know if the spren numbers have recovered from the annihilation caused by the recreance?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, aemetha said:

@maxal we may have to agree to disagree. The main thrust of my point isn't really that Amaram is a good candidate for a radiant, lightweaver or otherwise. My point is that in terms of back stories he has perhaps good reason to modify his behaviour become a good candidate for a radiant.

The point that we have to stop thinking that everyone who lies to themselves would be a good lightweaver is well made, but I would also add that we have to stop basing our assumptions about the attitudes of all the orders on windrunners and Syl. Two orders we haven't seen at all have been described in ways that are a significant departure from what honorspren would approve of, and Brandon has said himself that there were disagreements between orders.

I wasn't basing myself on Syl, I was basing myself on the fact Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin, Renarin, Jasnah, Lift, Ym, Stump, every single known Radiants all chosen from various orders all having various take on moralities have shown the ability to put others in front of them when the need comes. It is the one common streak all Radiants currently have: it isn't honor nor morality, it is this capacity to want to use their powers for the greater good, to think outside of themselves.

Amaram hasn't shown he was capable of having this quality which is why I do think sprens will skip him all together. I also don't see the interest. What is wrong with having an antagonist not going onto some sort of redemption? Can't we just have someone doing bad things, someone we understand why he is doing it, but also someone not getting rewarded for being a scum bag?

Edited August 6, 2017 by maxal

[aemetha he/him]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

Can't we just have someone doing bad things, someone we understand why he is doing it, but also someone not getting rewarded for being a scum bag?

Absolutely, we can have that. I'd quite like that. When we look at candidates for radiants, I think you and I are looking at different things. You're looking for dedication to the greater good, right? I'm looking for an explanation as to why a person would develop that dedication to the greater good. Perhaps I'm pessimistic, but I don't think that humans are inherently good, I think they need to be motivated to do good or evil. I prefer a cognitive and evolutionary take on psychology in this regard over a humanistic take. We do good things because it improves our reproductive fitness and because reciprocal altruism is a net benefit to us.

Take Lopen for example, I like Lopen, and I'd be very happy if he became a radiant, but I don't know why he's glowing. He's a nice guy, and very helpful, but what has he done that really distinguishes him? He's demonstrated a preference for the ideals, but I haven't seen yet the level of dedication to those ideals seen in Kaladin, Dalinar and Lift for example. When I compare Amaram to Lopen as candidates to become future radiants I understand why Amaram may be motivated to act in a manner consistent with the first oath and do so with that level of dedication that makes words become oaths.

I'd be perfectly happy if none of the back story characters become radiants honestly, and the newly introduced orders had new characters. When someone does become radiant though, I want to know what drove them to it, I want it to make sense.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

12 minutes ago, maxal said:

I personally disagree with Amaram as a Radiant. I can see villains such as Taravangian, but not Amaram: to selfish, to looking down onto his own person, to prone to take immoral actions for his own benefit. All Radiants have been selfish, at times, but all have also taken direct actions in the name of others: all of them. It is one of the main reasons I can't see Amaram or Elhokar as Radiants: they do not care about others, not in the slightest way.

I disagree with the sentiment that Amaram (or Elhokar for that matter) are completely selfish. In fact, I believe that Amaram thinks he is doing stuff for the wellbeing of others. Since he is very religious, he would probably think that the world would be better off controlled by the Almighty/the Devotaries. He probably thinks that it would be the best for everyone if the religion was running things. I strongly doubt that Amarams actions as a Son of Honor would be about himself. He is doing it for others, but has a very warped, zealous way of thinking, unlike most others.